1984-05 Steve Jobs.Interview with Michael Moritz
Steve and Michael Moritz, a reporter who would soon switch careers and become a venture capitalist, spoke at Steve’s office at Apple in May 1984. They covered a wide range of topics, including Steve’s thoughts on product design.
史蒂夫和迈克尔·莫里茨（Michael Moritz）是一位即将转行成为风险投资家的记者，于 1984 年 5 月在史蒂夫在苹果公司的办公室交谈。他们涵盖了广泛的主题，包括史蒂夫对产品设计的看法。
Steve Jobs: I went around and looked at Cuisinarts when we were designing Mac. It was like my Cuisinart week.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：在设计 Mac 时，我四处查看了库辛纳特。那就像是我的库辛纳特周。
Michael Moritz: But no other particular products [influenced you]? Say, from the late seventies or something.
迈克尔·莫里茨：但没有其他特定的产品[影响过你]？比如，来自七十年代末期之类的。
Steve Jobs: Well, we’re around automobiles our whole lives. I’ve never been a car guy, but I’ve always loved Volkswagen Beetles. I’ve always loved Volkswagen vans, actually, too.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：嗯，我们整个生活都围绕着汽车。我从来不是一个车迷，但我一直喜欢大众甲壳虫。实际上，我也一直喜欢大众面包车。
Just a bunch of little things: wine labels, paintings in galleries. Just simple things. Not anything real profound, just lots and lots of little things. I don’t think my taste in aesthetics is that much different than a lot of other people’s. The difference is that I just get to be really stubborn about making things as good as we all know they can be. That’s the only difference.
只是一堆小事情：葡萄酒标签，画廊里的画作。只是简单的事情。没有什么真正深刻的东西，只是很多很多小事情。我认为我的审美品味并不比很多其他人的不同。不同之处在于我可以非常固执地努力让事情变得像我们都知道它们可以变得那样好。这就是唯一的区别。
Michael Moritz: Yeah, I think you’re being modest.
迈克尔·莫里茨：是的，我认为你很谦虚。
Steve Jobs: Well, things get more refined as you make mistakes. I’ve had a chance to make a lot of mistakes. Your aesthetics get better as you make mistakes. But the real big thing is: if you’re going to make something, it doesn’t take any more energy—and rarely does it take more money—to make it really great. All it takes is a little more time. Not that much more. And a willingness to do so, a willingness to persevere until it’s really great.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：嗯，当你犯错时，事情会变得更加精致。我有很多机会犯错。当你犯错时，你的审美会变得更好。但真正重要的是：如果你要创造一些东西，要让它变得非常出色，不需要更多的精力——也很少需要更多的金钱。所需的只是多一点时间。并不需要太多。还有一种愿望去做到这一点，一种坚持不懈直到变得真正出色的意愿。
But aesthetics? I think aesthetics are a lot like singing. Joanie [Baez] has a beautiful voice, but the reason her voice is beautiful isn’t because her voice is just beautiful. It’s because she has an incredibly good ear. She can listen to somebody speak for thirty seconds and imitate their voice almost perfectly. Her ear is superb. And I think, in the same way, good aesthetics result from just your eye. An instinct of what you see, not so much what you do.
但审美？我认为审美很像唱歌。琼妮[Baez]有一副美妙的嗓音，但她的声音之所以美妙并不仅仅是因为她的声音本身美丽。而是因为她有一个非常好的耳朵。她可以听某人说话三十秒钟，几乎可以完美地模仿他们的声音。她的听力极好。我认为，同样地，好的审美结果仅仅来自于你的眼睛。是你所看到的直觉，而不是你所做的事情。
Steve Jobs: I want to build products that are inherently smaller than any of the products on the market today. And when you make things smaller, you have the ability to make them more precisely. Obviously, a perfect example of that is a watch. It’s beautiful, but the precision has to be the scale of the object itself, and so you make it very precise. And as our products get smaller, we have the opportunity to do that. So, obviously, I would like everything to be smaller.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我想要打造的产品在市场上比任何产品都要小。当你把东西做得更小，你就有能力使它们更精确。显然，手表就是一个完美的例子。它很漂亮，但精度必须符合物体本身的尺度，因此你要做得非常精确。随着我们的产品变得更小，我们有机会做到这一点。所以，显然，我希望一切都更小。
I also think that it’s really nice to be able to carry products around. Even if they’re not portable, it’s very nice to be able to have a handle on them that says, “Pick me up and move me when you want to change where I am.” Carry them from room to room, or from office to office. Lisa’s too heavy to carry from office to office, or room to room, or home on the weekends. So the question is, “How do we find a way to package that same functionality into something that we can carry around with us and that is smaller, obviously—and be able to express the form of that more precisely?” That’s where we’re going in the future, those directions.
我也认为能够携带产品真的很不错。即使它们不是便携式的，能够有一个手柄让我们拿起并移动它们，这真的很好，这样我们就可以随时改变它们的位置。将它们从一个房间搬到另一个房间，或者从办公室搬到另一个办公室。Lisa太重了，无法从一个办公室搬到另一个办公室，或者从一个房间搬到另一个房间，或者在周末搬回家。所以问题是，“我们如何找到一种方法将相同的功能打包到我们可以随身携带的东西中，并且显然更小，并能更精确地表达其形式？”这就是我们未来要走的方向。
Michael Moritz: What are the uglier, offensive designs of products, or are there just too many to list?
迈克尔·莫里茨：产品中有哪些更丑陋、令人反感的设计，还是太多无法一一列举？
Steve Jobs: Yeah—pick any car before three years ago, you know? Pick most cars today. Anything. Just look around the room. Tables, chairs: all ugly. You can ask me, what am I doing in this office? But anyway, most things are not very nice.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：是的——选三年前的任何一辆车，你知道吗？选今天的大多数车辆。任何东西。只要看看周围的房间。桌子，椅子：都很丑。你可以问我，在这个办公室我在做什么？但无论如何，大多数东西都不是很好看。
The telephone’s a perfect example. The only telephone that’s ever been any good is the original one and the Trimline. The Trimline is the only decent one. What they’ve done to the new stuff is just garbage.
电话是一个完美的例子。迄今为止唯一好用的电话是原始电话和 Trimline。Trimline 是唯一一个体面的。他们对新产品所做的只是垃圾。
Steve Jobs: [At Apple] we’re just getting simpler and simpler and simpler. Very, very simple. Simple.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：[在苹果]我们变得越来越简单。非常、非常简单。简单。
Steve Jobs: Have you ever seen HP’s buildings over on Page Mill Road, the original ones? They’re really neat. They’ve got these scalloped roofs, and they face the glass north, and you can actually put solar collectors on them, if you wanted to. They stick out. In a building, they make a whole glass wall. And so people work down there, and they get tons of natural light coming in. Just tons.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：你有没有见过惠普在佩奇米尔路上的建筑，原始的那些？它们真的很漂亮。它们有这些扇形屋顶，朝向玻璃北面，如果你想的话，你实际上可以在上面安装太阳能集热器。它们很显眼。在建筑物中，它们构成了整个玻璃墙。所以人们在那里工作，他们可以获得大量的自然光线。真的很多。
The problem with these buildings [at Apple] is there’s no light. I mean, you spend five minutes outside, and you walk in here, it’s really dark, and you can’t see anything. And we’re all sort of like living in these little tiny caverns.
这些建筑物[在苹果公司]的问题在于没有光线。我的意思是，你在外面呆了五分钟，然后走进这里，非常昏暗，什么都看不见。我们都像是生活在这些小小的洞穴里。
I just want a ton of natural light.
我只想要大量的自然光。
Michael Moritz: Was all the stuff about Big Brother [in the “1984” commercial] very conscious of the IBM stuff, or was that something that outsiders quickly interpreted, and you guys weren’t exactly going to—
迈克尔·莫里茨：《1984》广告中关于“老大哥”的所有内容都非常有意识地与 IBM 有关，还是外部人士很快就解释出来的，而你们并不打算——
Steve Jobs: Deny it?
史蒂夫·乔布斯：否认吗？
Michael Moritz: Deny it.
迈克尔·莫里茨：否认它。
Steve Jobs: Well, the best response to that was the response given, I think, in Fortune, which was, “If seeing Big Brother in 1984 connotes IBM to a large number of people, that says more about IBM’s image problem than our intentions.”
史蒂夫·乔布斯：嗯，对此最好的回应是在《财富》杂志上给出的回应，我认为，“如果对于许多人来说，在《1984》中看到大哥就让他们联想到 IBM，那更多地反映了 IBM 的形象问题，而不是我们的意图。”
In truth: of course, we saw the analogy. And I think that we were saying two things. I think the first thing we were saying was, this image of computers as sort of a centralized group of people having control of very powerful machines to keep track of us, that iconic fear in our minds—we were commenting on that cultural fear that we have.
事实上：当然，我们看到了这种类比。我认为我们说了两件事。我认为我们说的第一件事是，计算机的这种形象，就像一群中央集权的人控制着非常强大的机器来追踪我们，这种在我们心中具有象征意义的恐惧——我们在评论我们拥有的那种文化恐惧。
And of course, one couldn’t—you’d have to be an idiot not to see the parallels to IBM.
当然，一个人不可能——除非是白痴，才看不到与 IBM 的相似之处。
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