Excerpts from an Oral History Interview with Steve Jobs?Founder, NeXT Computer.

与 NeXT Computer 创始人史蒂夫-乔布斯的口述历史访谈摘录。

Interviewer: Daniel Morrow, Executive Director, The Computerworld Smithsonian Awards Program

采访者丹尼尔-莫罗（Daniel Morrow），《计算机世界》史密森奖计划执行主任

Date of Interview: 20 April 1995

采访日期1995 年 4 月 20 日

Location: NeXT Computer 地点NeXT 计算机

Transcript Editor: Thomas J. Campanella, Computerworld Smithsonian Awards

文字稿编辑：Thomas J. Campanella，计算机世界史密森奖

Daniel Morrow (DM): Steve, I'd like to begin with some biographical information. Tell us about yourself.

丹尼尔-莫罗（DM）：史蒂夫，我想先介绍一下你的履历。请介绍一下您自己。

Steve Jobs : I was born in San Francisco, California, USA, planet Earth, February 24, 1955. I can go into a lot of details about my youth, but I don't know that anybody would really care about that too much.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：1955 年 2 月 24 日，我出生在地球上的美国加利福尼亚州旧金山。我可以详述我年轻时的许多细节，但我不知道会有人真的太在意这些。

DM: Well they might in three hundred years because all this print is going to disintegrate. Tell me a little bit about your parents, your family; what are the earliest things you remember? In 1955, Eisenhower was still President.

DM：三百年后可能会有，因为这些印刷品都会解体。跟我说说你的父母、你的家庭；你记忆中最早的事情是什么？1955 年，艾森豪威尔还是总统。

Steve Jobs:I don't remember him but I do remember growing up in the late 50's and early 60's. It was a very interesting time in the United States. America was sort of at its pinnacle of post World War II prosperity and everything had been fairly straight and narrow from haircuts to culture in every way, and it was just starting to broaden into the 60's where things were going to start expanding out in new directions. Everything was still very successful. Very young. America seemed young and naive in many ways to me, from my memories at that time.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我不记得他，但我确实记得在 50 年代末和 60 年代初成长的时光。那是美国一个非常有趣的时期。美国在二战后的繁荣中达到了巅峰，生活的方方面面都相对简单，从发型到文化都很单一，而这时正开始向 60 年代拓展，事情将朝着新的方向发展。一切仍然非常成功。非常年轻。在我当时的记忆中，美国在许多方面显得年轻而天真。

DM: So you would have been about five or six years old when John Kennedy was assassinated?

DM: 约翰-肯尼迪遇刺时，你大概五六岁吧？

Steve Jobs:I remember John Kennedy being assassinated. I remember the exact moment that I heard he had been shot.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我记得约翰-肯尼迪遇刺的情景。我记得我听到他被枪击的那一刻。

DM: Where were you at the time?

DM: 当时你在哪里？

Steve Jobs:I was walking across the grass at my schoolyard going home at about three in the afternoon when somebody yelled that the President had been shot and killed. I must have been about seven or eight years old, I guess, and I knew exactly what it meant. I also remember very much the Cuban Missile Crisis. I probably didn't sleep for three or four nights because I was afraid that if I went to sleep I wouldn't wake up. I guess I was seven years old at the time and I understood exactly what was going on. I think everybody did. It was really a terror that I will never forget, and it probably never really left. I think that everyone felt it at that time.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：下午三点左右，我正穿过学校操场的草地回家，有人大喊总统被枪杀了。我当时大概七八岁吧，我很清楚这意味着什么。我还对古巴导弹危机记忆犹新。我大概有三四个晚上没有睡觉，因为我害怕如果我睡着了，我就醒不过来了。我想那时我才七岁，我完全明白发生了什么。我想每个人都明白。那真的是一种让我终生难忘的恐惧，它可能从未真正离开过。我想当时每个人都有这种感觉。

DM: Those of us who were older, such as myself, remember making plans of where we would meet if the country was devastated. It was a strange time. One of the things we're trying to get a handle on is passion and power. What were the early things you were passionate about, that you were interested in?

DM：像我这样上了年纪的人还记得，我们曾计划如果国家遭到破坏，我们将在哪里会面。那是一个奇怪的年代。我们想了解的事情之一就是激情和力量。你早期对哪些事情充满热情，对哪些事情感兴趣？

Steve Jobs:I was very lucky. My father, Paul, was a pretty remarkable man. He never graduated from high school. He joined the coast guard in World War II and ferried troops around the world for General Patton; and I think he was always getting into trouble and getting busted down to Private. He was a machinist by trade and worked very hard and was kind of a genius with his hands. He had a workbench out in his garage where, when I was about five or six, he sectioned off a little piece of it and said "Steve, this is your workbench now." And he gave me some of his smaller tools and showed me how to use a hammer and saw and how to build things. It really was very good for me. He spent a lot of time with me . . . teaching me how to build things, how to take things apart, put things back together.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我很幸运。我的父亲，保罗，是个相当了不起的人。他从未高中毕业。他在第二次世界大战中加入了海岸警卫队，为巴顿将军运送部队到世界各地；我想他总是惹麻烦，被降级为士兵。他是个机械师，工作非常努力，手艺相当出色。在他的车库里有一个工作台，当我大约五六岁时，他划出了一小块地方，说：“史蒂夫，这就是你的工作台。”他给了我一些小工具，教我如何使用锤子和锯子，以及如何制作东西。这对我真的很有帮助。他花了很多时间和我在一起……教我如何制作东西，如何拆解东西，再把它们组装起来。

One of the things that he touched upon was electronics. He did not have a deep understanding of electronics himself but he'd encountered electronics a lot in automobiles and other things he would fix. He showed me the rudiments of electronics and I got very interested in that. I grew up in Silicon Valley. My parents moved from San Francisco to Mountain View when I was five. My dad got transferred and that was right in the heart of Silicon Valley so there were engineers all around. Silicon Valley for the most part at that time was still orchards--apricot orchards and prune orchards--and it was really paradise. I remember the air being crystal clear, where you could see from one end of the valley to the other.

他谈到的其中一件事就是电子技术。他自己对电子学并没有很深的了解，但他在汽车和其他他要修理的东西上经常接触到电子学。他向我展示了电子技术的基本原理，我对此产生了浓厚的兴趣。我在硅谷长大。我五岁时，父母从旧金山搬到了山景城。我父亲被调到了硅谷，而那里正好是硅谷的中心地带，所以周围到处都是工程师。当时的硅谷大部分还是果园--杏园和西梅园--简直就是天堂。我记得那里的空气清澈见底，你可以从山谷的一端看到另一端。

DM: This was when you were six, seven, eight years old at the time.

DM：那时候你才六、七、八岁。

Steve Jobs:Right. Exactly. It was really the most wonderful place in the world to grow up. There was a man who moved in down the street, maybe about six or seven houses down the block who was new in the neighborhood with his wife, and it turned out that he was an engineer at Hewlett-Packard and a ham radio operator and really into electronics. What he did to get to know the kids in the block was rather a strange thing: he put out a carbon microphone and a battery and a speaker on his driveway where you could talk into the microphone and your voice would be amplified by the speaker. Kind of strange thing when you move into a neighborhood but that's what he did.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：没错。确实如此。那是世界上最美好的成长地方。街上搬来了一个新邻居，离我们大约六七栋房子远，他和妻子刚搬到这个社区，结果发现他是惠普的一名工程师，还是一名业余无线电操作员，对电子产品非常感兴趣。他为了认识街区里的孩子们，做了一件相当奇怪的事情：他在自己的车道上放了一个碳麦克风、一块电池和一个扬声器，你可以对着麦克风说话，你的声音会通过扬声器放大。搬到一个新社区时做这样的事情有点奇怪，但这就是他所做的。

DM: This is great.

DM: 太棒了。

Steve Jobs:I of course started messing around with this. I was always taught that you needed an amplifier to amplify the voice in a microphone for it to come out in a speaker. My father taught me that. I proudly went home to my father and announced that he was all wrong and that this man up the block was amplifying voice with just a battery. My father told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and we got into a very large argument. So I dragged him down and showed him this and he himself was a little befuddled.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我当然就开始捣鼓这个了。我一直被教导说，你需要一个放大器来放大麦克风里的声音，才能通过扬声器传出来。这是我父亲教我的。我得意洋洋地回家向父亲宣布，他错了，街区里的这个人只用一块电池就能放大声音。父亲说我不知道自己在说什么，我们大吵了一架。于是我把他拉下来，给他看这个，他自己也有点懵。

I got to know this man, whose name was Larry Lang, and he taught me a lot of electronics. He was great. He used to build Heathkits. Heathkits were really great. Heathkits were these products that you would buy in kit form. You actually paid more money for them than if you just went and bought the finished product if it was available. These Heathkits would come with these detailed manuals about how to put this thing together and all the parts would be laid out in a certain way and color coded. You'd actually build this thing yourself. I would say that this gave one several things. It gave one a understanding of what was inside a finished product and how it worked because it would include a theory of operation but maybe even more importantly it gave one the sense that one could build the things that one saw around oneself in the universe. These things were not mysteries anymore. I mean you looked at a television set you would think that "I haven't built one of those but I could. There's one of those in the Heathkit catalog and I've built two other Heathkits so I could build that." Things became much more clear that they were the results of human creation not these magical things that just appeared in one's environment that one had no knowledge of their interiors. It gave a tremendous level of self-confidence, that through exploration and learning one could understand seemingly very complex things in one's environment. My childhood was very fortunate in that way.

我认识这个人，他的名字叫拉里·朗，他教了我很多电子学知识。他很棒。他曾经组装过希斯基特（Heathkit）。希斯基特真的很棒。希斯基特是你可以以套件形式购买的产品。如果你直接去买成品，价格通常会更便宜。希斯基特会附带详细的手册，告诉你如何组装这个东西，所有的零件都会以特定的方式排列并进行颜色编码。你实际上是自己组装这个东西。我认为这给了人们几个方面的收获。它让人理解了成品内部的构造和工作原理，因为它包含了操作原理的理论，但也许更重要的是，它让人感受到自己可以构建周围环境中的事物。这些东西不再是谜团。我是说，当你看着一台电视时，你会想：“我虽然没有组装过那种，但我可以。希斯基特目录里有那种，我已经组装过两个其他的希斯基特，所以我可以组装那个。”事情变得更加清晰，它们是人类创造的结果，而不是那些在环境中突然出现、对其内部一无所知的神奇事物。这带来了巨大的自信心，通过探索和学习，人们可以理解看似非常复杂的环境事物。我的童年在这方面非常幸运。

DM: It sounds like you were really lucky to have your dad as sort of a mentor. I was going to ask you about school. What was the formal side of your education like? Good? Bad?

DM: 听起来你很幸运，有你的父亲作为导师。我正想问你学校的情况。你正式的教育经历怎么样？好？不好？

Steve Jobs:School was pretty hard for me at the beginning. My mother taught me how to read before I got to school and so when I got there I really just wanted to do two things. I wanted to read books because I loved reading books and I wanted to go outside and chase butterflies. You know, do the things that five year olds like to do. I encountered authority of a different kind than I had ever encountered before, and I did not like it. And they really almost got me. They came close to really beating any curiosity out of me. By the time I was in third grade, I had a good buddy of mine, Rick Farentino, and the only way we had fun was to create mischief. I remember we traded everybody. There was a big bike rack where everybody put their bikes, maybe a hundred bikes in this rack, and we traded everybody our lock combinations for theirs on an individual basis and then went out one day and put everybody's lock on everybody else's bike and it took them until about ten o'clock that night to get all the bikes sorted out. We set off explosives in teacher's desks. We got kicked out of school a lot. In fourth grade I encountered one of the other saints of my life. They were going to put Rick Farentino and I into the same fourth grade class, and the principal said at the last minute "No, bad idea. Separate them." So this teacher, Mrs. Hill, said "I'll take one of them." She taught the advanced fourth grade class and thank God I was the random one that got put in the class. She watched me for about two weeks and then approached me. She said "Steven, I'll tell you what. I'll make you a deal. I have this math workbook and if you take it home and finish on your own without any help and you bring it back to me, if you get it 80% right, I will give you five dollars and one of these really big suckers she bought and she held it out in front of me. One of these giant things. And I looked at her like "Are you crazy lady"? Nobody's ever done this before and of course I did it. She basically bribed me back into learning with candy and money and what was really remarkable was before very long I had such a respect for her that it sort of re-ignited my desire to learn. She got me kits for making cameras. I ground my own lens and made a camera. It was really quite wonderful. I think I probably learned more academically in that one year than I learned in my life. It created problems though because when I got out of fourth grade they tested me and they decided to put me in high school and my parents said "No.". Thank God. They said "He can skip one grade but that's all."

史蒂夫·乔布斯：一开始上学对我来说很困难。我的母亲在我上学之前就教我如何阅读，所以当我到学校时，我真的只想做两件事。我想读书，因为我喜欢读书，我想出去追蝴蝶。你知道，做五岁小孩喜欢做的事情。我遇到了我之前从未遇到过的不同类型的权威，我不喜欢它。他们几乎要把我所有的好奇心都打出来。到我上三年级时，我有一个好朋友，Rick Farentino，我们唯一的乐趣就是制造恶作剧。我记得我们交换了每个人的东西。那里有一个大自行车架，大家把自行车放在那儿，可能有一百辆自行车在这个架子上，我们逐个交换了每个人的锁，然后有一天出去，把每个人的锁都放在别人的自行车上，直到晚上十点左右，他们才把所有的自行车整理好。我们在老师的桌子里放了爆炸物。我们经常被学校开除。在四年级时，我遇到了我生命中的另一个圣人。 他们本来打算把里克·法伦蒂诺和我放在同一个四年级班级，校长在最后一刻说：“不，这主意不好。把他们分开。”于是这位老师，希尔夫人，说：“我会收一个。”她教高级四年级班，感谢上帝，我是那个被随机放进班里的。她观察了我大约两周，然后找我谈话。她说：“史蒂文，我告诉你，我给你一个交易。我有一本数学练习册，如果你带回家自己完成，没有任何帮助，然后把它带回来，如果你答对 80%，我会给你五美元和一个她买的非常大的棒棒糖，她把它举在我面前。这种巨大的东西。我看着她，心想：“你疯了吗，女士？”以前没有人这样做过，当然我做了。她基本上用糖果和钱贿赂我重新学习，真正令人惊讶的是，不久之后我对她产生了如此尊重，以至于重新点燃了我学习的渴望。她给我买了制作相机的工具包。我自己磨了镜头，做了一台相机。这真是太棒了。 我觉得我在那一年里学到的学术知识比我一生中学到的都要多。不过这也造成了一些问题，因为我从四年级毕业时，他们对我进行了测试，决定让我上高中，我的父母说“不”。谢天谢地。他们说“他可以跳过一个年级，但就只有这么多。”

DM: But not to high school.

DM：但不是去高中。

Steve Jobs:And I found skipping one grade to be very troublesome in many ways. That was plenty enough. It did create some problems.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我发现跳级在很多方面都很麻烦。这已经够多了。这确实造成了一些问题。

DM: This seems like such a good place to talk about your experience in the fourth grade. Do you think that had a major impact on your own interest in education? I mean if there is anyone in the computer industry that is associated with computers and education it has got to be you and Apple.

DM：这里似乎很适合谈谈您四年级时的经历。你认为这对你自己对教育的兴趣有重大影响吗？我的意思是，如果说计算机行业有谁与计算机和教育有关，那一定是你和苹果公司。

Steve Jobs: I'm sure it did. I'm a very big believer in equal opportunity as opposed to equal outcome. I don't believe in equal outcome because unfortunately life's not like that. It would be a pretty boring place if it was. But I really believe in equal opportunity. Equal opportunity to me more than anything means a great education. Maybe even more important than a great family life, but I don't know how to do that. Nobody knows how to do that. But it pains me because we do know how to provide a great education. We really do. We could make sure that every young child in this country got a great education. We fall far short of that. I know from my own education that if I hadn't encountered two or three individuals that spent extra time with me, I'm sure I would have been in jail. I'm 100% sure that if it hadn't been for Mrs. Hill in fourth grade and a few others, I would have absolutely have ended up in jail. I could see those tendencies in myself to have a certain energy to do something. It could have been directed at doing something interesting that other people thought was a good idea or doing something interesting that maybe other people didn't like so much. When you're young, a little bit of course correction goes a long way. I think it takes pretty talented people to do that. I don't know that enough of them get attracted to go into public education. You can't even support a family on what you get paid. I'd like the people teaching my kids to be good enough that they could get a job at the company I work for, making a hundred thousand dollars a year. Why should they work at a school for thirty-five to forty thousand dollars if they could get a job here at a hundred thousand dollars a year? Is that an intelligence test? The problem there of course is the unions. The unions are the worst thing that ever happened to education because it's not a meritocracy. It turns into a bureaucracy, which is exactly what has happened. The teachers can't teach and administrators run the place and nobody can be fired. It's terrible. 

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我相信确实如此。我非常相信机会平等，而不是结果平等。我不相信结果平等，因为不幸的是，生活并不是这样的。如果生活是这样的，那将是一个相当无聊的地方。但我真的相信机会平等。对我来说，机会平等意味着良好的教育。也许甚至比良好的家庭生活更重要，但我不知道该怎么做。没有人知道该怎么做。但这让我感到痛心，因为我们确实知道如何提供良好的教育。我们真的可以确保这个国家的每一个年轻孩子都能接受良好的教育。我们远未达到这一目标。我知道从我自己的教育经历来看，如果我没有遇到两三个花时间帮助我的人，我肯定会进监狱。我百分之百确定，如果不是四年级的希尔夫人和其他几位，我绝对会进监狱。我能在自己身上看到那些倾向，拥有某种能量去做事情。那种能量可能会被引导去做一些有趣的事情，其他人认为这是个好主意，或者做一些其他人可能不太喜欢的有趣事情。 当你年轻时，一点点的修正会有很大的帮助。我认为这需要相当有才华的人来做到。我不知道有多少人愿意进入公立教育。你甚至无法靠你所获得的薪水养活一个家庭。我希望教我孩子的人足够优秀，以至于他们可以在我工作的公司找到一份年薪十万美元的工作。如果他们可以在这里找到一份年薪十万美元的工作，为什么还要在学校工作，薪水只有三十五到四十千美元呢？这算是一种智力测试吗？当然，问题在于工会。工会是教育界发生的最糟糕的事情，因为这不是一个优胜劣汰的环境。它变成了一个官僚机构，这正是发生的事情。教师无法教学，管理者掌控一切，没人能被解雇。这太糟糕了。

DM: Some people say that this new technology maybe a way to bypass that. Are you optimistic about that?

DM: 有人说，新技术也许是绕过这种情况的一种方法。你对此乐观吗？

Steve Jobs: I absolutely don't believe that. As you've pointed out I've helped with more computers in more schools than anybody else in the world and I absolutely convinced that is by no means the most important thing. The most important thing is a person. A person who incites your curiosity and feeds your curiosity; and machines cannot do that in the same way that people can. The elements of discovery are all around you. You don't need a computer. Here - why does that fall? You know why? Nobody in the entire world knows why that falls. We can describe it pretty accurately but no one knows why. I don't need a computer to get a kid interested in that, to spend a week playing with gravity and trying to understand that and come up with reasons why.

史蒂夫·乔布斯： 我绝对不相信。正如你指出的，我帮助过的学校比世界上任何人都多，我绝对相信电脑绝不是最重要的东西。最重要的是一个人。一个能激发你的好奇心、满足你的好奇心的人；而机器无法像人一样做到这一点。发现的元素就在你身边。你不需要电脑。这里--为什么会掉下来？你知道为什么吗？全世界都没人知道为什么会掉下来。我们可以很准确地描述它，但没人知道为什么。我不需要电脑就能让孩子对此感兴趣，花一周时间玩重力游戏，试图理解它并找出原因。

DM: But you do need a person.

DM: 但你确实需要一个人。

Steve Jobs: You need a person. Especially with computers the way they are now. Computers are very reactive but they're not proactive; they are not agents, if you will. They are very reactive. What children need is something more proactive. They need a guide. They don't need an assistant. I think we have all the material in the world to solve this problem; it's just being deployed in other places. I've been a very strong believer in that what we need to do in education is to go to the full voucher system. I know this isn't what the interview was supposed to be about but it is what I care about a great deal.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：你需要一个人。尤其是现在的电脑。计算机非常被动，但它们并不主动；如果你愿意的话，它们不是代理。它们非常被动。孩子们需要的是更主动的东西。他们需要一个向导。他们不需要助手。我认为我们拥有世界上所有的材料来解决这个问题，只是这些材料被用在了其他地方。我一直坚信，在教育领域，我们需要做的是全面推行代金券制度。我知道这不是采访的目的，但我非常关心这个问题。

DM: This question was meant to be at the end and we're just getting to it now.

DM：这个问题本来应该放在最后，我们就现在讨论。

Steve Jobs: One of the things I feel is that, right now, if you ask who are the customers of education, the customers of education are the society at large, the employers who hire people, things like that. But ultimately I think the customers are the parents. Not even the students but the parents. The problem that we have in this country is that the customers went away. The customers stopped paying attention to their schools, for the most part. What happened was that mothers started working and they didn't have time to spend at PTA meetings and watching their kids' school. Schools became much more institutionalized and parents spent less and less and less time involved in their kids' education. What happens when a customer goes away and a monopoly gets control, which is what happened in our country, is that the service level almost always goes down. I remember seeing a bumper sticker when the telephone company was all one. I remember seeing a bumper sticker with the Bell Logo on it and it said "We don't care. We don't have to." And that's what a monopoly is. That's what IBM was in their day. And that's certainly what the public school system is. They don't have to care.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我觉得，现在如果你问教育的客户是谁，教育的客户是整个社会，是雇佣人的雇主，类似这样的。但最终我认为客户是父母。甚至不是学生，而是父母。我们国家面临的问题是客户消失了。客户大多数情况下不再关注他们的学校。发生的事情是，母亲们开始工作，她们没有时间参加家长教师协会会议和关注孩子的学校。学校变得更加制度化，父母在孩子教育上的参与时间越来越少。当客户消失，垄断获得控制时，这就是我们国家发生的事情，服务水平几乎总是下降。我记得在电话公司合并时看到过一个车贴。我记得看到一个带有贝尔标志的车贴，上面写着“我们不在乎。我们不需要在乎。”这就是垄断。这就是 IBM 在他们那个时代的样子。这当然也是公立学校系统的样子。他们不需要在乎。

Let's go through some economics. The most expensive thing people buy in their lives is a house. The second most expensive thing is a car, usually, and an average car costs approximately twenty thousand dollars. And an average car lasts about eight years. Then you buy another one. Approximately two thousand dollars a year over an eight year period. Well, your child goes to school approximately eight years in K through 8. What does the State of California spent per pupil per year in a public school? About forty-four hundred dollars. Over twice as much as a car. It turns out that when you go to buy a car you have a lot of information available to you to make a choice and you have a lot of choices. General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Nissan. They are advertising to you like crazy. I can't get through a day without seeing five car ads. And they seem to be able to make these cars efficiently enough that they can afford to take some of my money and advertise to other people. So that everybody knows about all these cars and they keep getting better and better because there's a lot of competition.

让我们来看看经济学。人们一生中买的最贵的东西是房子。第二贵的东西通常是汽车，平均一辆汽车大约需要两万美元。一辆车的平均寿命约为八年。然后再买一辆。在八年的时间里，每年大约需要两千美元。那么，你的孩子在幼儿园到八年级上学大约八年。加利福尼亚州公立学校每个学生每年的花费是多少？大约四千四百美元。是一辆汽车的两倍多。事实证明，当你去买车时，你可以获得很多信息来做出选择，你有很多选择。通用汽车、福特、克莱斯勒、丰田和日产。他们疯狂地向你做广告。我每天都能看到五个汽车广告。他们似乎能够高效地制造这些汽车，以至于他们有能力从我的钱中拿出一部分，向其他人做广告。这样一来，每个人都知道这些车，而且它们会越来越好，因为竞争非常激烈。

DM: There's a warranty.

DM: 有保修。

Steve Jobs: And there's a warranty. That's right. But in schools people don't feel that they're spending their own money. They feel like it's free, right? No one does any comparison shopping. A matter of fact if you want to put your kid in a private school, you can't take the forty-four hundred dollars a year out of the public school and use it, you have to come up with five or six thousand of your own money. I believe very strongly that if the country gave each parent a voucher for forty-four hundred dollars that they could only spend at any accredited school several things would happen. Number one schools would start marketing themselves like crazy to get students. Secondly, I think you'd see a lot of new schools starting. I've suggested as an example, if you go to Stanford Business School, they have a public policy track; they could start a school administrator track. You could get a bunch of people coming out of college tying up with someone out of the business school, they could be starting their own school. You could have twenty-five year old students out of college, very idealistic, full of energy instead of starting a Silicon Valley company, they'd start a school. I believe that they would do far better than any of our public schools would. The third thing you'd see is I believe, is the quality of schools again, just in a competitive marketplace, start to rise. Some of the schools would go broke. Alot of the public schools would go broke. There's no question about it. It would be rather painful for the first several years

史蒂夫·乔布斯：还有保修。这是对的。但在学校里，人们并不觉得自己在花自己的钱。他们觉得这是免费的，对吧？没有人进行比较购物。事实上，如果你想把孩子送到私立学校，你不能把公立学校的每年四千四百美元拿出来用，你必须自己拿出五六千美元。我非常坚信，如果国家给每个家长发放一张四千四百美元的代金券，只能在任何认可的学校使用，会发生几件事情。第一，学校会疯狂地进行自我营销以吸引学生。其次，我认为会有很多新学校成立。我举个例子，如果你去斯坦福商学院，他们有一个公共政策方向；他们可以开设一个学校管理方向。你可以让一群大学毕业生与商学院的某个人合作，他们可以创办自己的学校。你可以有二十五岁的大学毕业生，充满理想和活力，而不是去创办硅谷公司，他们会创办一所学校。 我相信他们会比我们任何公立学校做得更好。你会看到的第三点是，我相信，学校的质量在竞争市场中会开始提高。一些学校会破产。很多公立学校会破产。毫无疑问。在头几年的时间里，这将是相当痛苦的。

DM: But deservedly so.

DM: 但这是应得的

Steve Jobs:  But far less painful I think than the kids going through the system as it is right now. The biggest complaint of course is that schools would pick off all the good kids and all the bad kids would be left to wallow together in either a private school or remnants of a public school system. To me that's like saying "Well, all the car manufacturers are going to make BMWs and Mercedes and nobody's going to make a ten thousand dollar car." I think the most hotly competitive market right now is the ten thousand dollar car area. You've got all the Japanese playing in it. You've got General Motors who spent five million dollars subsidizing Saturn to compete in that market. You've got Ford which has just introduced two new cars in that market. You've got Chrysler with the Neon.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：但我认为这比孩子们在现有系统中经历的痛苦要小得多。最大的抱怨当然是学校会挑走所有优秀的孩子，而所有差的孩子则被留在一起，在私立学校或公立学校系统的残余中挣扎。对我来说，这就像是在说：“好吧，所有的汽车制造商都要生产宝马和奔驰，没有人会生产一辆一万美元的车。”我认为现在竞争最激烈的市场是那一万美元的汽车领域。所有的日本车企都在参与其中。通用汽车花了五百万美元补贴萨图恩以在这个市场竞争。福特刚刚在这个市场推出了两款新车。克莱斯勒也有霓虹车。

DM: So you're spending thirty-two thousand and getting a five hundred dollar car in some cases.

DM: 所以你花了三万二千美元，在某些情况下却买到了一辆五百美元的车。

Steve Jobs: The market competition model seems to indicate that where there is a need there is a lot of providers willing to tailor their products to fit that need and a lot of competition which forces them to get better and better. I used to think when I was in my twenties that technology was the solution to most of the world's problems, but unfortunately it just ain't so. I'll give you an analogy. Alot of times we think "Why is the television programming so bad? Why are television shows so demeaning, so poor?" The first thought that occurs to you is "Well, there is a conspiracy: the networks are feeding us this slop because its cheap to produce. It's the networks that are controlling this and they are feeding us this stuff but the truth of the matter, if you study it in any depth, is that networks absolutely want to give people what they want so that will watch the shows. If people wanted something different, they would get it. And the truth of the matter is that the shows that are on television, are on television because that's what people want. The majority of people in this country want to turn on a television and turn off their brain and that's what they get. And that's far more depressing than a conspiracy. Conspiracies are much more fun than the truth of the matter, which is that the vast majority of the public are pretty mindless most of the time. I think the school situation has a parallel here when it comes to technology. It is so much more hopeful to think that technology can solve the problems that are more human and more organizational and more political in nature, and it ain't so. We need to attack these things at the root, which is people and how much freedom we give people, the competition that will attract the best people. Unfortunately, there are side effects, like pushing out a lot of 46 year old teachers who lost their spirit fifteen years ago and shouldn't be teaching anymore. I feel very strongly about this. I wish it was as simple as giving it over to the computer.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：市场竞争模式似乎表明，只要有需求，就会有很多供应商愿意根据需求定制产品，而激烈的竞争也会迫使他们变得越来越好。在我二十多岁的时候，我曾经认为技术可以解决世界上的大多数问题，但不幸的是，事实并非如此。我给你打个比方。很多时候我们会想："为什么电视节目这么糟糕？为什么电视节目如此贬低人，如此差劲？"你首先想到的是："嗯，这是一个阴谋：电视网给我们提供这些泔水，因为制作成本低。是电视网在控制这一切，他们在给我们提供这些东西，但如果你深入研究一下，事情的真相是，电视网绝对是想给人们他们想要的东西，这样人们才会看这些节目。如果人们想要不同的东西，他们就会得到。而事实的真相是，电视节目之所以能在电视上播出，是因为这正是人们想要的。这个国家的大多数人都想打开电视，关掉大脑，这就是他们所得到的。这比阴谋论更让人沮丧。阴谋论比事实真相有趣得多，事实真相是绝大多数公众在大多数时候都很无脑。我认为，在技术方面，学校的情况与此类似。认为技术可以解决更人性、更组织化、更政治化的问题，这种想法更有希望，但事实并非如此。我们需要从根本上解决这些问题，也就是人的问题，以及我们给予人们多少自由的问题，还有吸引最优秀人才的竞争问题。 不幸的是，这样做也有副作用，比如把很多 46 岁的教师挤走了，他们在 15 年前就失去了斗志，不应该再教书了。我对此深有感触，我希望这能像交给计算机那么简单。

DM: I'm really glad we had a chance to talk about it. To talk about other things, so much has been written about you rather than go over a lot of those stories I was going to ask which one you think is the best and the fairest and if there are aspects of your career that you think have been left out.

DM: 我很高兴我们有机会谈论这个。谈论其他事情，关于你的文章已经写了很多，而不是重复那些故事，我想问一下你认为哪一个是最好的和最公正的，以及你认为在你的职业生涯中有哪些方面被忽略了。

Steve Jobs: I have to tell you truly that I'm pretty ignorant about it because I haven't read any of them. I skimmed one one time and read the first ten pages and they got my birthday wrong by a year. If they can't even get this right then this is probably not worth reading. I don't even remember the name of the one I skimmed. I always considered part of my job was to keep the quality level of people in the organizations I work with very high. That's what I consider one of the few things I actually can contribute individually--to to really try to instill in the organization the goal of only having 'A' players. Because in this field, like in a lot of fields, the difference between the worst taxi cab driver and the best taxi cab driver to get you crosstown Manhattan might be two to one. The best one will get you there in fifteen minutes, the worst one will get you there in a half an hour. Or the best cook and the worst cook, maybe it's three to one. Pick something like that. In the field that I'm in the difference between the best person and the worst person is about a hundred to one or more. The difference between a good software person and a great software person is fifty to one, twenty-five to fifty to one, huge dynamic range. Therefore, I have found, not just in software, but in everything I've done it really pays to go after the best people in the world. It's painful when you have some people who are not the best people in the world and you have to get rid of them; but I found that my job has sometimes exactly been that to get rid of some people who didn't measure up and I've always tried to do it in a humane way. But nonetheless it has to be done and it is never fun.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我必须诚实地告诉你，我对这方面了解得很少，因为我没有读过任何一本。我曾经浏览过一本，读了前十页，他们把我的生日错记了一年。如果连这个都做不好，那这本书可能就不值得一读。我甚至不记得我浏览的那本书的名字。我一直认为我的工作的一部分是保持我所工作的组织中人员的高质量水平。这是我认为我能单独贡献的少数几件事之一——真正努力在组织中灌输只拥有“A”级人才的目标。因为在这个领域，就像在很多领域一样，最差的出租车司机和最好的出租车司机在曼哈顿横穿城的差距可能是二比一。最好的司机能在十五分钟内把你送到，最差的司机可能要半个小时。或者最好的厨师和最差的厨师，可能是三比一。选一个这样的例子。在我所处的领域，最优秀的人和最差的人之间的差距大约是一百比一或更多。 优秀的软件人才与伟大的软件人才之间的差距是五十比一、二十五比五十比一，动态范围巨大。因此，我发现，不仅在软件领域，在我所做的一切事情中，追求世界上最优秀的人才真的很有价值。当你有一些人不是世界上最优秀的人才时，必须将他们淘汰，这是一件痛苦的事情；但我发现我的工作有时正是要淘汰一些不合格的人，我总是尽量以人道的方式去做。但尽管如此，这仍然是必须要做的事情，而且从来都不是一件有趣的事。

DM:Is that the hardest and the most painful part of managing a company rom your point of view?

DM:从你的角度来看，这是管理公司最困难和最痛苦的部分吗？

Steve Jobs:Oh sure. Of course. At times I've been pretty hard about it and a lot of times people haven't wanted to leave and I haven't given them any choices. If somebody wanted to write a book about me, most of my friends would never talk to them but they could go find the handful of a few dozen people that I fired in my life who hate my guts. It was certainly the case in the one book I skimmed. I mean it was just "let's throw the darts at Steve." Such is life. That's the world I've chosen to live in. If I didn't like that part of it enough, I'd escape and I haven't so I'm willing to put up with that. But I certainly didn't find it very accurate.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：哦，当然。当然。有时我的态度很强硬，很多时候人们并不想离开，我也没有给他们任何选择。如果有人想写一本关于我的书，我的大多数朋友都不会理他们，但他们可以去找我生活中开除的那几十个恨我入骨的人。我略读的那本书当然也是如此。我的意思是 "让我们把飞镖扔向史蒂夫"。这就是生活这就是我选择生活的世界。如果我不喜欢这部分，我就会逃离，但我没有，所以我愿意忍受。但我确实觉得这并不准确。

DM: I've got a couple of questions I'd like to ask you about specifically about your experience at Apple. Looking back at the years you were there, what were the accomplishments you are most proud of? Are there a couple of Apple stories you really like to tell?

DM：我有几个问题想问你，特别是关于你在苹果公司的经历。回顾你在苹果的这些年，你最引以为豪的成就是什么？有没有几个你非常喜欢讲的苹果故事？

Steve Jobs: Apple was this incredible journey. I mean we did some amazing things there. The thing that bound us together at Apple was the ability to make things that were going to change the world. That was very important. We were all pretty young. The average age in the company was mid-to-late twenties. Hardly anybody had families at the beginning and we all worked like maniacs and the greatest joy was that we felt we were fashioning collective works of art much like twentieth century physics. Something important that would last, that people contributed to and then could give to more people; the amplification factor was very large.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：苹果是一段不可思议的旅程。我是说我们在那里做了很多了不起的事情。在苹果公司，把我们联系在一起的是制造能够改变世界的产品的能力。这一点非常重要。我们都很年轻。公司里的平均年龄在二十多岁中后期。刚开始几乎没有人有家庭，我们都像疯子一样工作，最大的快乐是我们觉得自己在创造集体艺术作品，就像二十世纪的物理学一样。某种重要的东西，将会持续下去，人们为之贡献，然后可以传递给更多的人；这种放大效应是非常大的。

In doing the Macintosh, for example, there was a core group of less than a hundred people, and yet Apple shipped over ten million of them. Of course everybody's copied it and it's hundreds of millions now. That's pretty large amplification, a million to one. It's not often in your life that you get that opportunity to amplify your values a hundred to one, let alone a million to one. That's really what we were doing. If you look at what we tried to do, it was to say "Computation and how it relates to people is really in its infancy here. We are in the right place at the right time to change the course of that vector a little bit." What's interesting is that if you change the course of a vector near its origin, by time it gets a few miles out its course is radically different. We were very cognizant of this fact. From almost the beginning at Apple we were, for some incredibly lucky reason, fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time. The contributions we tried to make embodied values not only of technical excellence and innovation--which I think we did our share of--but innovation of a more humanistic kind.

在做 Macintosh 时，例如，核心团队不到一百人，但苹果却发货超过一千万台。当然，大家都在模仿，现在的数量已经达到数亿。这是相当大的放大，百万对一。在你的人生中，能够将你的价值观放大到百倍，甚至百万倍的机会并不常见。这正是我们所做的。如果你看看我们尝试做的事情，就是在说“计算与人之间的关系在这里真的还处于初期阶段。我们正处在改变这个向量方向的合适时机。”有趣的是，如果你在一个向量的起点附近改变其方向，当它走出几英里时，它的轨迹会截然不同。我们对此事实非常清楚。从苹果几乎一开始，由于某种不可思议的幸运原因，我们有幸处在合适的地方和合适的时间。我们尝试做出的贡献体现了不仅是技术卓越和创新的价值观——我认为我们在这方面做出了贡献——还有更人文主义的创新。

The things I'm most proud about at Apple is where the technical and the humanistic came together, as it did in publishing for example. The Macintosh basically revolutionized publishing and printing. The typographic artistry coupled with the technical understanding and excellence to implement that electronically--those two things came together and empowered people to use the computer without having to understand arcane computer commands. It was the combination of those two things that I'm the most proud of. It happened on the Apple II and it happened on the Lisa, although there were other problems with the Lisa that caused it to be a market failure; and then it happened again big time on the Macintosh.

我在苹果公司最引以为豪的是技术与人文的结合，例如在出版业。Macintosh 基本上彻底改变了出版和印刷业。排版的艺术性加上对技术的理解，以及以电子方式实现排版的卓越能力--这两样东西结合在一起，使人们能够使用电脑，而不必了解神秘的电脑指令。我最引以为豪的就是这两件事的结合。它发生在 Apple II 上，也发生在 Lisa 上，尽管 Lisa 还存在其他问题，导致它在市场上失败了；然后它又在 Macintosh 上大显身手。

DM: You used an interesting word in describing what you were doing. You were talking about art not engineering, not science. Tell me about that.

DM: 你在描述自己的工作时用了一个有趣的词。你说的是艺术而不是工程，也不是科学。跟我说说。

Steve Jobs: I actually think there's actually very little distinction between an artist and a scientist or engineer of the highest calibre. I've never had a distinction in my mind between those two types of people. They've just been to me people who pursue different paths but basically kind of headed to the same goal which is to express something of what they perceive to be the truth around them so that others can benefit by it.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我实际上认为艺术家和最高水平的科学家或工程师之间几乎没有区别。在我心中，这两种人从来没有区别。他们对我来说只是追求不同道路的人，但基本上朝着同一个目标前进，那就是表达他们所感知的周围真相，以便让其他人受益。

DM: And the artistry is in the elegance of the solution, like chess playing or mathematics?

DM: 艺术性在于解决方案的优雅，就像下棋或数学？

Steve Jobs:  No. I think the artistry is in having an insight into what one sees around them. Generally putting things together in a way no one else has before and finding a way to express that to other people who don't have that insight so they can get some of the advantage of that insight that makes them feel a certain way or allows them to do a certain thing. I think that a lot of the folks on the Macintosh team were capable of doing that and did exactly that. If you study these people a little bit more what you'll find is that in this particular time, in the 70's and the 80's the best people in computers would have normally been poets and writers and musicians. Almost all of them were musicians. Alot of them were poets on the side. They went into computers because it was so compelling. It was fresh and new. It was a new medium of expression for their creative talents. The feelings and the passion that people put into it were completely indistinguishable from a poet or a painter. Many of the people were introspective, inward people who expressed how they felt about other people or the rest of humanity in general into their work, work that other people would use. People put a lot of love into these products, and a lot of expression of their appreciation came to these things. It's hard to explain.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：不，我认为艺术性在于对周围事物的洞察力。通常以一种别人从未有过的方式将事物组合在一起，并找到一种方式将其表达给那些没有这种洞察力的人，以便他们能够获得这种洞察力带来的某种优势，让他们感受到某种情感或能够做某件事情。我认为，很多在麦金塔团队的人都能够做到这一点，并且确实做到了。如果你稍微多研究一下这些人，你会发现，在 70 年代和 80 年代的这个特定时期，计算机领域最优秀的人通常是诗人、作家和音乐家。几乎所有人都是音乐家。很多人还是兼职诗人。他们进入计算机领域是因为它非常吸引人。它是新鲜和崭新的。这是一个表达他们创造才能的新媒介。人们投入的情感和热情与诗人或画家完全无法区分。许多人都是内省、内向的人，他们将自己对其他人或整个人类的感受表达在他们的作品中，这些作品是其他人会使用的。 人们在这些产品中投入了很多爱，很多人表达了他们对这些事物的欣赏。这很难解释。

DM: It's passion in the truest sense of the word.

DM：这是真正意义上的激情。

Steve Jobs: The computer industry is at a very critical juncture where those people are clearly leaving the field.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：计算机行业正处于一个非常关键的时刻，这些人显然正在离开这个领域。

DM: What are they doing?

DM:他们在干什么？

Steve Jobs: Hard to say. They're not being attracted by something else. They're being driven out of the computer business. They're being driven out because the computer business is becoming a monopoly with Microsoft. Without getting into whether Microsoft gained its position legally or not--who cares? The end product of the position is that the ability to innovate in the industry is being sucked dry. I think the smartest people have already seen the writing on the wall. I think some of the smartest young people are questioning whether they'll really get in it. Hopefully things will change. It's kind of a dark period right now or about to enter. 

史蒂夫·乔布斯：很难说。他们并不是被其他东西吸引，而是被迫退出计算机行业。他们被迫退出，因为计算机行业正变成一个由微软垄断的市场。在不讨论微软是否合法获得其地位的情况下——谁在乎呢？这个地位的最终结果是，行业的创新能力正在被榨干。我认为最聪明的人已经看到了危机的迹象。我认为一些最聪明的年轻人正在质疑他们是否真的会参与其中。希望情况会有所改变。现在是一个黑暗的时期，或者即将进入。

DM: Apple had a reputation as a company that absolutely broke the mold and set its own course. Looking back from where you are today with NeXT, do you think that, as Apple grew larger, it could have sustained that original approach? Or was it destined to become a big standard American company?

DM：苹果公司曾以打破常规、走自己道路而闻名。回顾你今天在 NeXT 的立场，你认为随着苹果的壮大，它是否能够维持最初的做法？还是注定要成为一家大型的美国标准公司？

Steve Jobs: That's a funny question. Apple did grow big and sustain that approach. When I left Apple it was a two billion dollar company. We were Fortune 300 and something. We were 350. When the Mac was introduced we were a billion dollar corporation; so Apple grew from nothing to two billion dollars while I was there. That's a pretty high growth rate. It grew five times since I left basically on the back of the Macintosh. I think what's happened since I left in terms of growth rate has been trivial compared with what it was like when I was there. What ruined Apple wasn't growth. What ruined Apple was values. John Sculley ruined Apple and he ruined it by bringing a set of values to the top of Apple which were corrupt and corrupted some of the top people who were there, drove out some of the ones who were not corruptible, and brought in more corrupt ones and paid themselves collectively tens of millions of dollars and cared more about their own glory and wealth than they did about what built Apple in the first place--which was making great computers for people to use.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这是一个有趣的问题。苹果确实发展壮大并维持了这种方式。我离开苹果时，它是一家市值 20 亿美元的公司。我们是财富 300 强之类的公司。我们当时是 350 强。Mac 推出时，我们是一家市值十亿美元的公司；因此，我在苹果工作期间，苹果从一无所有发展到市值 20 亿美元。这是一个相当高的增长率。自从我离开后，苹果公司基本上依靠 Macintosh 的支持增长了五倍。我认为，与我离开时的情况相比，我离开后的增长率微不足道。毁掉苹果的不是增长。毁掉苹果的是价值观。约翰-斯卡利（John Sculley）毁了苹果公司，他通过将一套腐败的价值观带到苹果的高层，腐化了一些高层人员，驱逐了一些不可腐化的人，带来了更多腐败的人，并集体支付了数千万美元的薪酬，更关心自己的荣耀和财富，而不是最初建立苹果的原因——为人们制造优秀的计算机。

They didn't care about that anymore. They didn't have a clue about how to do it and they didn't take any time to find out because that's not what they cared about. They cared about making a lot of money so they had this wonderful thing that a lot of brilliant people made called the Macintosh and they got very greedy and instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision--which was to make this thing an appliance, to get this out there to as many people as possible--they went for profits and they made outlandish profits for about four years. Apple was one of the most profitable companies in America for about four years.

他们不再关心这些了。他们不知道该怎么做，也没有花时间去了解，因为这不是他们关心的事情。他们关心的是赚很多钱，所以他们拥有了许多聪明人创造的这个叫做 Macintosh 的奇妙产品，他们变得非常贪婪，而不是遵循最初的愿景轨迹——将这个东西变成一种家电，尽可能多地让人们使用——他们追求利润，并在大约四年内获得了巨额利润。苹果在美国大约四年内是最赚钱的公司之一。

What that cost them was the future. What they should have been doing was making reasonable profits and going for market share, which was what we always tried to do. Macintosh would have had a thirty- three percent market share right now, maybe even higher, maybe it would have even been Microsoft but we'll never know. Now its got a single digit market share and falling. There's no way to ever get that moment in time back. The Macintosh will die in another few years and its really sad. The problem is this: no one at Apple has a clue as to how to create the next Macintosh because no one running any part of Apple was there when the Macintosh was made--or any other product at Apple. They've just been living off that one thing now for over a decade and the last attempt was the Newton and you know what happened to that. It's kind of tragic, but as unemotionally as I can be, that's what's happening. Unless somebody pulls a rabbit out of a hat, companies tend to have long glide slopes because of the installed bases. But Apple is just gliding down this slope and they're loosing market share every year. Things start to spiral down once you get under a certain threshold. And when developers no longer write applications for your computer, that's when it really starts to fall apart.

这让他们失去了未来。他们应该做的是赚取合理的利润，争取市场份额，这也是我们一直努力的方向。Macintosh 现在的市场份额本应达到百分之三十三，甚至更高，甚至可能超过微软，但我们永远不会知道。现在它的市场份额只有个位数，而且还在下降。那一刻再也回不去了。Macintosh 再过几年就会消亡，这实在令人痛心。问题在于：苹果公司没有人知道如何创造下一代 Macintosh，因为 Macintosh 诞生时，苹果公司没有人在管理任何部门，苹果公司的其他产品也是如此。十多年来，他们一直靠这一款产品过活，最后一次尝试是Newton，你也知道Newton的下场。这有点悲惨，但就我个人而言，这就是事实。除非有人从帽子里变出一只兔子，否则公司往往会因为已安装的基础而有很长的滑行坡度。但苹果公司正沿着这条坡道滑下去，每年都在失去市场份额。一旦低于某个临界点，情况就会开始螺旋式下滑。当开发者不再为你的电脑编写应用程序时，这才是真正开始崩溃的时候。

DM: There's obviously a lot of emotional attachment to Apple.

DM：显然，人们对苹果公司有很多情感依恋。

Steve Jobs: Oh sure. Apple could have lived forever and kept shipping great products forever. Apple was for a while like Sony. It was the place that made the coolest stuff.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：哦，当然。苹果本可以永远存在，并不断推出优秀的产品。苹果曾经像索尼一样。它是制造最酷产品的地方。

DM: Is there a user of Apple or a story that you could tell that in your mind exemplifies what the company stood for and its values at its best? What customers were using the Apple when you were there?

DM：有没有一位苹果用户或一个故事可以告诉我，在你看来，这个故事体现了公司最优秀的价值观和理念？你在那时看到的客户使用了哪些苹果产品？

Steve Jobs: There were two kinds of customers. There were the educational aspects of Apple and then there were sort of the non-educational. On the non-educational side, Apple was two things. One, it was the first "lifestyle" computer and, secondly, it's hard to remember how bad it was in the early 1980's. With IBM taking over the world with the PC, with DOS out there; it was far worse than the Apple II. They tried to copy the Apple II and they had done a pretty bad job. You needed to know a lot. Things were kind of slipping backwards. You saw the 1984 commercial. Macintosh was basically this relatively small company in Cupertino, California, taking on the goliath, IBM, and saying "Wait a minute, your way is wrong. This is not the way we want computers to go. This is not the legacy we want to leave. This is not what we want our kids to be learning. This is wrong and we are going to show you the right way to do it and here it is. It's called Macintosh and it is so much better. It's going to beat you and you're going to do it."

史蒂夫·乔布斯：有两种客户。苹果有教育方面的客户，也有非教育方面的客户。在非教育方面，苹果有两个特点。其一，它是第一台 "生活方式 "电脑；其二，很难回忆起 20 世纪 80 年代初的苹果有多糟糕。随着 IBM 的 PC 和 DOS 在世界范围内大行其道，当时的情况远比 Apple II 糟糕。他们试图模仿 Apple II，但做得很糟糕。你需要了解很多东西。一切都在倒退。你看过 1984 年的广告。Macintosh 基本上是加利福尼亚州库比蒂诺的一家相对较小的公司，它向巨头 IBM 发起挑战，并说："等一下，你们的方式是错误的。这不是我们想要的计算机发展方式。这不是我们想要留下的遗产。这不是我们希望孩子们学习的东西。这是错的，我们会告诉你正确的方法，就是这样。它叫 Macintosh，它要好得多。"它会打败你，而你要做到。"

And that's what Apple stood for. That was one of the things. The other thing was a little bit further back in time. One of the things that built Apple II's was schools buying Apple II's; but even so there was about only 10% of the schools that even had one computer in them in 1979 I think it was. When I grew up I was lucky because I was in Silicon Valley. When I was ten or eleven I saw my first computer. It was down at NASA Ames (Research Center). I didn't see the computer, I saw a terminal and it was theoretically a computer on the other end of the wire. I fell in love with it. I saw my first desktop computer at Hewlett-Packard which was called the 9100A. It was the first desktop in the world. It ran BASIC and APL I think. I fell in love with it. And I thought, looking at these statistics in 1979, I thought if there was just one computer in every school, some of the kids would find it. It will change their life.

这就是苹果所代表的意义。这是其中之一。另一个则是更早的事情。促成苹果 II 发展的因素之一是学校购买苹果 II；但即便如此，1979 年时，只有大约 10% 的学校拥有一台计算机。我成长的环境很幸运，因为我在硅谷。当我十岁或十一岁时，我看到了我的第一台计算机。它在 NASA 艾姆斯研究中心。我没有看到计算机，我看到的是一个终端，理论上在电缆另一端有一台计算机。我爱上了它。我在惠普看到我的第一台桌面计算机，叫做 9100A。它是世界上第一台桌面计算机。我想它运行 BASIC 和 APL。我爱上了它。然后，我看到 1979 年的这些统计数据，我想如果每所学校都有一台计算机，某些孩子会发现它。这将改变他们的生活。

We saw the rate at which this was happening and the rate at which the school bureaucracies were deciding to buy a computer for the school and it was real slow. We realized that a whole generation of kids was going to go through the school before they even got their first computer so we thought the kids can't wait. We wanted to donate a computer to every school in America. It turns out that there are about a hundred thousand schools in America, about ten thousand high schools, about ninety thousand K through 8. We couldn't afford that as a company. But we studied the law and it turned out that there was a law already on the books, a national law that said that if you donated a piece of scientific instrumentation or computer to a university for educational and research purposes you can take an extra tax deduction. That basically means you don't make any money, you loose some but you don't loose too much. You loose about ten percent. We thought that if we could apply that law, enhance it a little bit to extend it down to Kthrough 8 and remove the research requirements so it was just educational, then we could give a hundred thousand computers away, one to each school in America and it would cost our company ten million dollars which was a lot of money to us at that time but it was less than a hundred million dollars if we didn't have that. We decided that we were willing to do that.

我们看到这种情况发生的速度，以及学校官僚机构决定为学校购买计算机的速度都非常慢。我们意识到，整整一代孩子将在没有得到他们第一台计算机的情况下完成学业，所以我们认为孩子们不能再等了。我们想要向美国的每一所学校捐赠一台计算机。结果发现，美国大约有十万所学校，大约一万所高中，约九万所 K 到 8 年级的学校。作为一家公司，我们无法承担这样的费用。但我们研究了法律，发现已经有一项国家法律规定，如果你向大学捐赠一台科学仪器或计算机用于教育和研究目的，你可以获得额外的税收减免。这基本上意味着你不会赚到钱，虽然会损失一些，但损失不会太多。你大约会损失百分之十。 我们认为，如果我们能够应用那项法律，稍微增强一下，将其扩展到 K 到 8 年级，并去掉研究要求，使其仅限于教育，那么我们可以赠送十万台电脑，每所学校一台，这将花费我们公司一千万美元，这在当时对我们来说是一笔不小的金额，但如果没有那项法律，这笔费用将少于一亿美元。我们决定愿意这样做。

It was one of the most incredible things I've ever done. We found our local representative, Pete Stark over in East Bay and Pete and a few of us sat down an we wrote a bill. We literally drafted a bill to make these changes. We said "If this law changes we will donate a hundred thousand computers at a cost of ten million dollars to us." We called it "the kids can't wait bill". Pete Stark introduced it in the House and Senator Danforth introduced it in the Senate and I refused to hire any lobbyists and I went back to Washington myself and I actually walked the halls of Congress for about two weeks, which was the most incredible thing. I met probably two-thirds of the House and over half of the Senate myself and sat down and talked with them.

这是我做过的最不可思议的事情之一。我们在东湾找到了我们的地方代表皮特·斯塔克，皮特和我们几个坐下来写了一份法案。我们实际上起草了一份法案来进行这些更改。我们说：“如果这项法律改变，我们将捐赠十万台电脑，成本为一千万美元。”我们称之为“孩子们不能等待法案”。皮特·斯塔克在众议院提出了这项法案，丹福斯参议员在参议院提出了这项法案，我拒绝雇佣任何游说者，自己回到华盛顿，实际上在国会走廊里走了大约两周，这是最不可思议的事情。我大概见到了三分之二的众议院成员和超过一半的参议院成员，并与他们坐下来交谈。

It was very interesting. I found that the House Members are routinely less intelligent than the Senate and they were much more kneejerk to their constituencies--which I found initially quite offensive but came to understand later to be a really good idea. Maybe that's what the framers wanted. They weren't supposed to think too much, they were supposed to represent. The Senators are supposed to think a little more. The Bill passed the House with the largest favorable majority of any tax bill in the history of this country. What happened was it was in during Carter's lame duck session and Bob Dole who was then Speaker of the House killed it. He would not bring it to the floor and we ran out of time. We would have had to have started the process over in the next year and I gave up.

这非常有趣。我发现众议院的成员通常比参议院的成员智力低，而且他们对选民的反应更加本能——这最初让我感到相当冒犯，但后来我理解这其实是个很好的主意。也许这正是制定者想要的。他们不应该想太多，而是应该代表选民。参议员应该多想一点。该法案在众议院获得通过，是美国历史上赞成票数最多的税收法案。但在卡特的 "跛脚鸭会议 "期间，时任众议院议长的鲍勃-多尔（Bob Dole）将其扼杀。他不愿意把法案提交议院，我们也没有时间了。我们不得不在下一年重新开始这个过程，我放弃了。

However, fortunately something unique happened. California thought this was such a good idea they came to us and said "You don't have to do a thing. We're going to pass a bill that says 'Since you operate in the State of California and pay California Tax, we're going to pass this bill that says that if the federal bill doesn't pass, then you get the tax break in California'. You can do it in California, which is ten thousand schools". So we did. We gave away ten thousand computers in the State of California. We got a whole bunch of the software companies to give away software. We trained teachers for free and monitored this thing over the next few years. It was phenomenal. One of my great experiences and one of my biggest regrets was that really tried to do this on a national level and got so close. I don't think Bob Dole even knew what he was doing but he really unfortunately screwed up here.

不过，幸运的是，一些独特的事情发生了。加利福尼亚州认为这是个好主意，他们找到我们说："你们什么都不用做。我们将通过一项法案，规定'由于你们在加利福尼亚州经营并缴纳加州税，我们将通过这项法案，规定如果联邦法案没有通过，你们将在加州获得税收减免'。你们可以在加利福尼亚这样做，那里有上万所学校"。我们就这么做了。我们在加利福尼亚州赠送了一万台电脑。我们让一大批软件公司赠送软件。我们免费培训教师，并在接下来的几年里对这项工作进行监督。这真是了不起。我最伟大的经历之一，也是我最大的遗憾之一，就是真的想在全国范围内开展这项工作，却差那么一点点。我认为鲍勃-多尔甚至不知道他在做什么，但他真的不幸在这里搞砸了。

DM: That's a great story.

DM: 这是一个伟大的故事。

Steve Jobs:That's part of what Apple was about.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这也是苹果公司的宗旨之一。

DM: On the business side, I was at the Washington Post when the Macintosh was introduced. The Post was an IBM Big Blue Shop and nobody was going to play with it and then the Macintosh infiltrated. There was almost a guerilla movement. It started with ad artists and now the whole front end of the newspaper is being done on Apple machines. Was that fairly common, this guerilla movement?

DM：在商业方面，我在《华盛顿邮报》工作时，麦金塔被引入。《邮报》是一个 IBM 蓝色巨头的商店，没有人会去玩它，然后麦金塔悄然渗透。几乎形成了一种游击运动。最初是广告艺术家开始使用，现在整个报纸的前端都是在苹果机器上完成的。这种游击运动是否相当普遍？

Steve Jobs:Actually we had no concept of how to sell to corporate America because none of us had come from there. It was like another planet to us. Unfortunately I had to learn all that stuff. If I only knew now what I know now we could have done a lot better. Our attempts to sell to corporate America were just bungled and we ended up just selling to people who just sort of buying a product for its merit not because of the company it came from. I mean everybody was very hooked on Big Blue back then and they bought IBM. There was that famous phrase "You never get fired for buying IBM." We fortunately were able to change a lot of that. And Apple as you know, I believe, is a bigger supplier of personal computers than IBM.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：事实上，我们根本不知道如何向美国公司推销，因为我们都不是来自那里。那里对我们来说就像另一个星球。不幸的是，我不得不学习所有这些东西。如果我现在知道我现在所知道的，我们本可以做得更好。我们试图向美国公司推销产品，但都被搞砸了，最后我们只是在向那些因为产品本身的优点而购买的人销售，而不是因为它来自的公司。我是说，当时每个人都非常依赖“大蓝”，他们购买 IBM。曾经有句名言：“购买 IBM，你永远不会被解雇。”幸运的是，我们能够改变很多这一点。正如你所知道的，我相信，苹果现在是比 IBM 更大的个人电脑供应商。

DM: Tell me about what motivated you to establish NeXT and what were the goals you set out to accomplish when you set-up this new company?

DM：请告诉我是什么促使你成立 NeXT 公司，你成立这家新公司的目标是什么？

Steve Jobs:That's complicated. We basically wanted to keep doing what we were doing at Apple, to keep innovating. But we made a mistake which was to try to follow the same formula we did at Apple, to make the whole widget. But the market was changing. The industry was changing. The scale was changing. And in the end we knew we would be either the last company to make it or the first to not make it. We were right on the edge. We thought we would be the last one that made it, but we were wrong. We were the first one that didn't. We put an end to the companies that tried to do that. We certainly made our fair share of mistakes, but in the end I think we should have taken a bit longer to realize the world was changing and just gone on to be a software company right off the bat.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这很复杂。我们基本上想继续做我们在苹果公司做的事情，继续创新。但我们犯了一个错误，那就是试图沿用我们在苹果公司的做法，制造整个小部件。但市场在变。行业在变。规模在变化。最后我们知道，我们要么是最后一家成功的公司，要么是第一家失败的公司。我们就在边缘。我们以为我们会是最后一家成功的公司，但我们错了。我们是第一家没有成功的公司。我们终结了那些试图这样做的公司。当然，我们也犯过不少错误，但最终我认为，我们应该花更长的时间来意识到世界正在发生变化，并一开始就成为一家软件公司。

DM: Right off the bat? The machine got great reviews when it came out.

DM: 一开始就这样？这台机器一问世就获得了很高的评价。

Steve Jobs:The machine was the best machine in the world. Believe it or not, they're selling on the used market, in some cases, for more than we sold them for originally. They're hard to find even today. We haven't even made them for two, two and a half years.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这台机器是世界上最好的机器。不管你信不信，它们在二手市场上的售价有时比我们当初卖出的价格还要高。即使在今天也很难找到。我们甚至已经两年或两年半没有生产过这种机器了。

DM: What are the features that are on the NeXT machine that are still missing from machines today?

DM：NeXT 机器上有哪些功能是现在的机器还缺少的？

Steve Jobs:Well first of all it was a totally 'plug and play' machine. Except for Macintosh, that's hard to find. It's an extremely powerful machine, way beyond the Macintosh. So it sort of nicely combined the power of the workstations with the 'plug and playness' of the Mac. Second of all, the machine had a fit and finish that you don't find today.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：首先，这是一台完全 "即插即用 "的机器。除了 Macintosh 之外，很难找到这种机器。它的功能非常强大，远远超过了 Macintosh。因此，它很好地结合了工作站的强大功能和 Mac 的 "即插即用"。其次，这台机器的配置和做工也是今天所无法比拟的。

DM: It's beautiful.

DM: 太美了。

Steve Jobs:I don't just mean in packaging; I mean in terms of operation. Simple things to complex things. Simple things like soft power on and off. A trivial little thing but as you know one of the biggest reasons people lose information on computers is they turn them off at the wrong time. And when you get into a multi-tasking network system that could have much more severe consequences. So we were the first people to do that and some of the only people who do that where you push a button and you request the computer to turn off. It figures out what it needs to do to shut down gracefully and then turns itself off. Of course the NeXT Computer was also the first computer with built-in high quality sound, CD quality sound. Most people do that now. It took them a long time but most people do that. It was just ahead of its time.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我不仅仅是指包装；我指的是操作方面。从简单的事情到复杂的事情。简单的事情，比如软电源的开关。这是一个微不足道的小事，但正如你所知道的，人们在计算机上丢失信息的最大原因之一就是他们在错误的时间关闭了计算机。当你进入一个多任务网络系统时，这可能会导致更严重的后果。因此，我们是第一批做到这一点的人，也是为数不多的可以按下按钮请求计算机关机的人。它会计算出需要做什么以优雅地关闭，然后自己关机。当然，NeXT 计算机也是第一台内置高质量声音、CD 质量声音的计算机。现在大多数人都这样做。虽然花了他们很长时间，但大多数人现在都这样做。这只是超前于时代。

DM: NeXT Software: what makes it different? What trends does it respond to?

DM: NeXT 软件：它与众不同的地方是什么？它顺应了哪些趋势？

Steve Jobs:That's the real gem. I'll tell you an interesting story. When I was at Apple, a few of my acquaintances said "You really need to go over to Xerox PARC (which was Palo Alto Research Center) and see what they've got going over there." They didn't usually let too many people in but I was able to get in there and see what they were doing. I saw their early computer called the Alto which was a phenomenal computer and they actually showed me three things there that they had working in 1976. I saw them in 1979. Things that took really until a few years ago for us to fully recreate, for the industry to fully recreate in this case with NeXTStep. However, I didn't see all three of those things. I only saw the first one which was so incredible to me that it saturated me. It blinded me to see the other two. It took me years to recreate them and rediscover them and incorporate them back into the model but they were very far ahead in their thinking. They didn't have it totally right, but they had the germ of the idea of all three things. And the three things were graphical user interfaces, object oriented computing and networking.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这个故事非常有趣。我和一些人建立了联系。我的一个朋友告诉我，我应该去加利福尼亚州的圣拉斐尔拜访那些在卢卡斯影业工作的疯狂家伙。乔治·卢卡斯制作了《星球大战》三部曲，他是个聪明的人。在某个时候，当他从这些电影中赚了很多钱时，他意识到自己应该成立一个技术团队。他有几个想要解决的问题。我给你举个例子。当你复制模拟音频录音时，比如从一盘磁带复制到另一盘磁带，你会拾取噪声伪影，在这种情况下是嘶嘶声。如果你制作第二代复制品，情况会呈指数级恶化。光学模拟复制也是如此。你拿一段胶卷，制作一个光学复制品，你会拾取噪声伪影，在这种情况下是光学噪声，在某些情况下表现为模糊，在其他情况下表现为其他噪声伪影。

Let me go through those. Graphical interface: The Alto had the world's first graphical user interface. It had windows. It had a crude menu system. It had crude panels and stuff. It didn't work right but it basically was all there. Objects: They had Smalltalk running, which was really the first object-oriented language. Simula was really the first but Smalltalk was the first official object oriented language. Third, networking: They invented Ethernet there, as you know. And they had about two hundred Altos with servers hooked up in a local area network there doing e-mail and everything else over the network, all in 1979. I was so blown away with the potential of the germ of that graphical user interface that I saw that I didn't even assimilate or even stick around to investigate fully the other two.

让我一一道来。图形界面：Alto 拥有世界上第一个图形用户界面。它有窗口。它有一个简陋的菜单系统。它有粗糙的面板和其他东西。虽然不能正常工作，但基本上都有了。面向对象：他们运行的Smalltalk是第一种面向对象的语言。Simula确实是第一种，但Smalltalk才是第一种正式的面向对象语言。第三，网络：如你所知，他们在那里发明了以太网。1979年，他们在局域网中连接了大约两百台带有服务器的Altos，通过网络发送电子邮件和其他一切。我对我所看到的图形用户界面的潜力感到震惊，以至于我甚至没有吸收或停留去充分调查其他两个。

NeXTStep turned some of that vision into reality. It incorporated the world's first truly commercial object oriented system, and really was the most networked system in the world when it came out. I think the world has made a lot of progress in networking but hasn't yet crossed the hurdle into objects and what's happened with NeXTStep. It's starting to get adopted by some very large corporate customers. It is now the most popular object oriented system in the world, as objects are on the threshold of starting to move into the mainstream. The company last year recorded its first profit in its nine year history, and sold fifty million dollars worth of software. I think we're going to have some significant growth this year and it's fairly clear that NeXT can get up to being a few hundred million dollar software company in the next three or four years and be the largest company offering objects until Microsoft comes into the market at some point, probably with a pretty half-baked product.

NeXTStep 将一些愿景变为现实。它融入了世界上第一个真正商业化的面向对象系统，并且在发布时确实是世界上最联网的系统。我认为世界在网络方面取得了很大进展，但尚未跨越进入面向对象的障碍，以及 NeXTStep 所发生的事情。它开始被一些大型企业客户采用。现在它是世界上最受欢迎的面向对象系统，因为面向对象正处于进入主流的边缘。该公司去年在其九年历史中首次实现盈利，销售额达五千万美元。我认为我们今年将会有显著的增长，显然 NeXT 在未来三到四年内可以成为一家几亿美元的软件公司，并且在微软进入市场之前，成为提供向向对象的最大公司，微软可能会推出一个相当不成熟的产品。

DM: Some people say that in the future object-oriented software is going to be the only kind of software.

DM：有人说，未来面向对象的软件将是唯一的一种软件。

Steve Jobs:Of course its true. I remember being at Xerox at 1979. It was one of those sort of apocalyptic moments. I remember within ten minutes of seeing the graphical user interface stuff, just knowing that every computer would work this way some day; it was so obvious once you saw it. It didn't require tremendous intellect. It was so clear. The minute you understand objects, it's all exactly the same. All software will be written using object oriented technology some day. You can argue about how long its going to take, who the winners and loosers are going to be, but I don't think a rational person will debate its significance.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：当然是真的。我记得 1979 年我在施乐公司。那是一个世界末日般的时刻。我记得在看到图形用户界面的十分钟内，我就知道总有一天每台电脑都会以这种方式工作；一旦你看到它，它是如此显而易见。这不需要过人的智慧。它是如此清晰。一旦你理解了面向对象，一切都会变得一模一样。总有一天，所有软件都将使用面向对象技术编写。你可以争论它需要多长时间，谁是赢家谁是输家，但我不认为一个理性的人会争论它的意义。

DM: Give me your thoughts on the current status and the future of the Internet and the commercial online services and how they're affecting computer development.

DM：请谈谈你对互联网和商业在线服务的现状和未来的看法，以及它们对计算机发展的影响。

Steve Jobs:The Internet and the World Wide Web are clearly the most exciting thing going on in computing today. They're exciting for three or four reasons. Number one, ultimately computers are turning into communications devices and ultimately we're spending more and more of the cycles of the computer to not only make it easy to use but to make it easy to communicate. The Web is the missing piece of the puzzle which is really going to power that vision much farther forward. It's very exciting in that way. Secondly, it's very exciting because it is going to destroy vast layers of our economy and make available a presence in the marketplace for very small companies, one that is equal to very large companies. Let me give you an example. A small three-person company in Phoenix, Arizona can have a Web server that looks identical if not better than IBM's or the GAPs or anybody else, any large company. They can gain access to this electronic distribution channel for free. They don't have to build buildings. They don't have to sign up a thousand distributors and have people to call on them, etcetera, etcetera. In essence, direct distribution from the manufacturer to the customer via the Internet, via the Web, direct contact, direct transactions and distribution via UPS or Federal Express--that's going to be cheaper than going through all these middlemen or building hundreds of stores around the country. It is going radically change the way goods and services are discovered, sold and delivered, not only in this country but eventually all over the world. As you know, electrons travel at the speed of light and so it tends to bring the world much closer together in terms of providers and customers. That's pretty exciting. The levelling of big and small. The levelling of near and distant.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：互联网和万维网显然是当今计算机领域中最令人兴奋的事情。这令人兴奋的原因有三四个。首先，最终计算机正在转变为通信设备，我们花费越来越多的时间在计算机，不仅是为了让其易于使用，还为了让其易于沟通。网络是这个拼图中缺失的一块，真正将推动这一愿景更进一步。这在某种程度上非常令人兴奋。其次，这非常令人兴奋，因为它将摧毁我们经济中的大量层次，并为非常小的公司在市场上提供与大型公司平等的存在。让我给你举个例子。位于亚利桑那州凤凰城的一家三人小公司可以拥有一个看起来与 IBM、GAP 或任何其他大型公司完全相同甚至更好的网络服务器。他们可以免费获得这个电子分销渠道的访问权限。他们不需要建造建筑物，不需要签约一千个分销商，也不需要有人去拜访他们，等等。 本质上，通过互联网直接从制造商向客户分发，通过网络、直接联系、直接交易以及通过 UPS 或联邦快递进行分发——这将比通过所有这些中介或在全国建立数百家商店更便宜。这将彻底改变商品和服务的发现、销售和交付方式，不仅在这个国家，最终还会遍及全球。正如你所知道的，电子以光速传播，因此它在提供者和客户之间拉近了距离。这非常令人兴奋。大与小的平衡。近与远的平衡。

The third reason its very exciting is that Microsoft doesn't own it and I don't think they can. It's the one thing in the industry that Microsoft can probably never own. I think one of the things that's essential is that the government continue to fund the Internet as a public trust, as a public facility and remove any of these ridiculous notions of privatizing it that have been brought up. I don't think they're going to fly, thankfully. The Internet cost the U.S. Federal Government about fifty to seventy-five million a year. This is peanuts for what its doing right now and even if that cost someday escalated to half a billion a year which of course you could build the whole Internet each year from scratch if you had to, you could replace all the equipment, etcetera. That would be an extrodinarily small price to pay for keeping it from getting into the hands of any one company and thereby starting to destroy and control the innovation that could take place around the Internet. It's the one last bright spot of hope in the computer industry for some serious innovation to happen at a rapid pace. What's also great about it, again, is that the U.S. in the forefront here. That's what's great about the whole person computer software industry. This is another example where the U.S. is in the forefront. It should be kept open. It should be kept free.

第三个令人兴奋的原因是微软并不拥有它，我认为他们也不可能拥有。它是行业中微软可能永远无法拥有的唯一事物。我认为至关重要的一点是，政府继续将互联网作为公共信托、公共设施进行资助，并消除任何关于将其私有化的荒谬观念。我认为这些观念不会被接受，谢天谢地。互联网每年花费美国联邦政府大约五千万到七千五百万。这对于它目前所做的事情来说是微不足道的，即使将来这个成本上升到每年五亿，当然如果需要的话，你可以每年从头开始建设整个互联网，替换所有设备等等。为了防止它落入任何一家公司手中，从而开始破坏和控制围绕互联网可能发生的创新，这将是一个极其小的代价。这是计算机行业中最后一个充满希望的亮点，有可能以快速的速度发生一些重大创新。更棒的是，美国在这方面处于前沿。 这就是整个个人计算机软件行业的伟大之处。这是美国处于前沿的另一个例子。它应该保持开放。它应该保持自由。

DM: The World Wide Web is literally becoming a global phenomenon. Are you optimistic about it staying free?

DM: 万维网正在成为一种全球现象。你对它保持免费乐观吗？

Steve Jobs:Yes, I am optimistic about it staying free but before you say it's global too fast, its estimated that over one third of the total Internet traffic in the world originates or destines in California. So I actually think this is a pretty typical case where California is again on the leading edge not only in a technical but cultural shift. So I do expect the Web to be a worldwide phenomenon, distributed fairly broadly. But right now I think it's a U.S. phenomenon that's moving to be global, and one which is very concentrated in certain pockets, such as California.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：是的，我对它保持免费的前景持乐观态度，但在你说它全球化太快之前，估计全球超过三分之一的互联网流量源自或目的地在加利福尼亚。所以我实际上认为这是一个相当典型的案例，加利福尼亚再次处于技术和文化转变的前沿。因此，我确实期待网络成为一种全球现象，广泛分布。但现在我认为它是一个美国现象，正在向全球化发展，并且在某些地区非常集中，比如加利福尼亚。

DM: 85% of the world doesn't have access to a telephone yet. The potential is there and you're pretty optimistic. Tell me about Pixar.

DM：世界上 85% 的人还没有电话。潜力是存在的，你很乐观。说说皮克斯吧。

Steve Jobs:This story is very interesting. I got hooked up with some folks. Again a friend of mine told me I should go visit these crazy guys up in San Rafael, California who were working at Lucasfilm. Now George Lucas, who produced the Star Wars film trilogy, was a smart guy, and at one point when he had a lot of money coming in from these films he realized that he ought to start a technology group. He had a few problems he wanted to solve. I'll give you an example of one. When you make a copy of analog audio recording, like tape cassette to another tape cassette, you pick up noise artifacts, in this case hiss. If you make a second generation copy it gets worse exponentially. The same is true of optical analog copies. You take a piece of film, make an optical copy, you pick up noise artifacts, in this case optical noise which comes across as blurriness in some cases, comes across as other noise artifacts in other cases.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这个故事非常有趣。我认识了一些人。我的一个朋友又一次告诉我，我应该去加利福尼亚州圣拉斐尔拜访这些在卢卡斯影业工作的疯狂家伙。制作了《星球大战》电影三部曲的乔治-卢卡斯是个聪明人，当他从这些电影中获得大量收入后，他意识到应该成立一个技术小组。他想解决一些问题。我给你举一个例子。当你复制模拟音频录音时，比如把磁带复制到另一盒磁带上，你会接收到噪音信号，在这里就是嘶嘶声。如果制作第二代拷贝，情况就会呈指数级恶化。光学模拟拷贝也是如此。你拿一张胶片进行光学复制，就会产生噪声伪影，在这种情况下，光学噪声在某些情况下表现为模糊，在其他情况下表现为其他噪声伪影。

Now George, to make Star Wars actually had to composite together up to thirteen pieces of film for each frame. The matt paintings for the backgrounds might be a few pieces of film, the models might be a few pieces of film, the live action might be a few pieces of film, some special effects might be a few pieces of film and every time he'd make a copy to composite two together and then add a third, then add a fourth, he was adding noise artifacts with each generation. If you go buy a laser disk of any of the Star Wars Films, if you stop it on some of the frames, they are really grungy. Incredibly noisy, very bad quality. George being the perfectionist he was, said "I'd like to do it perfectly", do it digitally; and nobody had ever done that before. He hired some very smart people and they figured out how to do it for him, digitally with no noise artifacts. They developed software and actually built some specialized hardware at the time. George had at some point decided that this is costing him several million dollars a year and decided that he didn't want to fund it anymore so I bought this group from George Lucas and I incorporated it as Pixar and we set about revolutionizing high end computer graphics. If you look at the ten most important revolutions in high end graphics, in the last ten years, eight of them have come out of Pixar. All of the software that was used to make Terminator, for example--to actually construct the images that you saw on the screen--or Jurassic Park with all the dinosaurs, was Pixar Software. Industrial Light and Magic uses it as the base for all of their stuff.

现在乔治为了制作《星球大战》，实际上需要将每一帧合成多达十三个胶卷片段。背景的哑光画可能是几片胶卷，模型可能是几片胶卷，实景拍摄可能是几片胶卷，一些特效可能是几片胶卷，每次他都会制作一个副本，将两个合成在一起，然后再添加第三个，接着添加第四个，他在每一代中都增加了噪声伪影。如果你去买任何《星球大战》电影的激光唱片，如果你在某些帧上停下来，它们真的很脏。噪声极大，质量非常差。乔治作为一个完美主义者说：“我想做到完美”，以数字方式来实现；而且之前没有人这样做过。他雇佣了一些非常聪明的人，他们为他想出了如何以数字方式做到这一点，没有噪声伪影。他们开发了软件，并在当时实际构建了一些专用硬件。 乔治在某个时候决定这每年要花费他几百万美元，并决定不再资助它，因此我从乔治·卢卡斯手中购买了这个团队，并将其注册为皮克斯，我们开始着手革新高端计算机图形。如果你看看过去十年中高端图形的十个最重要的革命，其中八个来自皮克斯。例如，用于制作《终结者》的所有软件——实际上构建你在屏幕上看到的图像——或者《侏罗纪公园》中所有的恐龙，都是皮克斯软件。工业光魔将其作为所有作品的基础。

But Pixar had another vision. Pixar's vision was to tell stories. To make real films. Our vision was to make the world's first animated feature film--completely computer synthetic, sets, characters, everything. After ten years, we have done exactly that. We have developed tools, all proprietary, to do this, to manage the production of this thing as well as the drawing of this thing, computer synthetic drawing. We are finishing up making the world's first computer animated feature film. Pixar has written it, directed it, producing it. The Walt Disney Corporation is distributing it and it's coming out this year as Walt Disney's Christmas Picture. It's coming out November 11, I believe, and its called "Toy Story." You will hear a lot about it because I think its going to be the most successful film of this year.

但皮克斯有另一个愿景。皮克斯的愿景是讲故事。制作真实的电影。我们的愿景是制作世界上第一部完全由计算机合成的动画长片——场景、角色，所有的一切。经过十年的努力，我们正是这样做的。我们开发了所有专有的工具来实现这一目标，管理这个项目的制作以及这个项目的绘制，计算机合成绘图。我们正在完成世界上第一部计算机动画长片的制作。皮克斯编写了剧本，导演了影片，制作了它。华特迪士尼公司负责发行，影片将于今年作为华特迪士尼的圣诞影片上映。我相信它将在 11 月 11 日上映，片名为《玩具总动员》。你会听到很多关于它的消息，因为我认为它将成为今年最成功的电影。

DM: Fantastic.

DM: 太棒了。

Steve Jobs:It's phenomenal. Tom Hanks is the main character's voice. Tim Allen is the second main character. Randy Newman's doing the music for it. It's just phenomenal.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：太棒了汤姆-汉克斯是主角的配音。蒂姆-艾伦是第二主角。兰迪-纽曼为影片配乐。真是太棒了。

There's a lot of hoopla about Hollywood and Silicon Valley converging. They call it "Sillywood" I think. Pixar is really going to be the first digital studio in the whole world. It really combines art and technology together. Again in a very wonderful way. Pixar's got by far and away the best computer graphics talent in the entire world and it now has the best animation and artistic talent in the whole world to do these kinds of film. We have the second largest group of animators in the world outside of Disney and we think the most talented in the world working side by side with these computer scientists, the best graphics people in the world. There's really no one else in the world who could do this stuff. It's really phenomenal. We're probably close to ten years ahead of anybody else.

关于好莱坞和硅谷的融合，有很多喧嚣。我想他们称之为 "硅莱坞"，皮克斯将成为世界上第一个数字工作室。它真正把艺术和技术结合在了一起，而且是以一种非常奇妙的方式，皮克斯拥有全世界最优秀的电脑绘图人才，现在又拥有全世界最优秀的动画和艺术人才来制作这类电影，我们拥有除迪斯尼之外世界上第二大的动画师团队，我们认为他们是世界上最有才华的动画师，他们与计算机科学家、世界上最好的制图人员并肩工作。世界上没有其他人能做到这一点。这真的很惊人，我们可能比别人领先了近十年。

DM: It sounds really exciting. The question I was going to ask--and you've partially answered it--was about start-up companies. As I look around the facility here and your literature, there are alliances written all over the walls literally. You're aligned with Hewlett-Packard, Sun, Oracle and Digital and all the systems integrators. Communications companies and information technology companies are merging. And becoming one. Do you think it will ever be possible for a new major start-up company to develop if they're going to focus on major applications or software? Will there ever be another?

DM: 听起来真的很令人兴奋。我想问的问题--你已经部分回答了--是关于新成立的公司。当我环顾这里的设施和你们的资料时，墙上字面上写满了联盟。你们与惠普、太阳、甲骨文和数字公司以及所有系统集成商都有合作。通信公司和信息技术公司正在合并，变成一个整体。你认为如果一个新的大型初创公司专注于主要应用或软件，是否有可能发展起来？会不会再出现一个这样的公司？

Steve Jobs:I think yes. One might sometimes say in despair no, but I think yes. And the reason is because human minds settle into fixed ways of looking at the world and that's always been true and it's probably always going to be true. I've always felt that death is the greatest invention of life. I'm sure that life evolved without death at first and found that without death, life didn't work very well because it didn't make room for the young. It didn't know how the world was fifty years ago. It didn't know how the world was twenty years ago. It saw it as it is today, without any preconceptions, and dreamed how it could be based on that. We're not satisfied based on the accomplishment of the last thirty years. We're dissatisfied because the current state didn't live up to their ideals. Without death there would be very little progress. One of the things that happens in organizations as well as with people is that they settle into ways of looking at the world and become satisfied with things and the world changes and keeps evolving and new potential arises but these people who are settled in don't see it. That's what gives start-up companies their greatest advantage. The sedentary point of view is that of most large companies. In addition to that, large companies do not usually have efficient communication paths from the people closest to some of these changes at the bottom of the company to the top of the company which are the people making the big decisions. There may be people at lower levels of the company that see these changes coming but by the time the word ripples up to the highest levels where they can do something about it, it sometimes takes ten years. Even in the case where part of the company does the right thing at the lower levels, usually the upper levels screw it up somehow. I mean IBM and the personal computer business is a good example of that. I think as long as humans don't solve this human nature trait of sort of settling into a world view after a while, there will always be opportunity for young companies, young people to innovate. As it should be.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我认为是的。有时人们可能会绝望地说 "不"，但我认为 "是"。原因在于，人类的思维已经形成了看待世界的固定方式，这一直是事实，而且可能永远都是事实。我一直觉得死亡是生命最伟大的发明。我确信，生命最初是在没有死亡的情况下进化的，并发现没有死亡，生命就无法很好地运作，因为它没有为年轻人留出空间。它不知道五十年前的世界是怎样的。它不知道二十年前的世界是怎样的。它看到的是今天的世界，没有任何先入为主的观念，并在此基础上梦想着世界会怎样。我们不满足于过去三十年的成就。我们不满意，是因为现状没有达到他们的理想。没有死亡，就不会有什么进步。在组织和人身上都会发生这样的事情，那就是他们习惯于用自己的方式来看待世界，并对事物感到满意，而世界却在不断变化，不断发展，新的潜力不断涌现，但这些习惯于这种方式的人却看不到。这正是新创公司的最大优势。大多数大公司的观点都是安于现状。此外，大公司通常没有高效的沟通渠道，无法从公司底层最接近这些变化的人通向公司高层，而高层是做出重大决策的人。公司的低层人员可能会看到这些变化的到来，但当这些消息传到最高层，让他们能有所行动时，有时需要十年的时间。 即使公司的部分下层做了正确的事情，上层通常也会以某种方式将其搞砸。我的意思是，IBM 和个人电脑业务就是一个很好的例子。我认为，只要人类不解决这种过一段时间就会形成一种世界观的人性特质，年轻公司和年轻人就永远有机会进行创新。这是应该的。

DM: And that was going to be my closing question before I gave you chance to sort of free associate on your own. That is to talk to young people who sort of look to you as a role model. Opportunities for innovation you think they're still possible. What are the factors of success for young people today? What should they avoid?

DM: 在我给你机会自己自由发挥之前，这将是我的最后一个问题。那就是与那些以你为榜样的年轻人交谈。你认为创新的机会仍然存在。对现在的年轻人来说，成功的因素是什么？他们应该避免什么？

Steve Jobs:I get asked this a lot and I have a pretty standard answer which is, a lot of people come to me and say "I want to be an entrepreneur". And I go "Oh that's great, what's your idea?". And they say "I don't have one yet". And I say "I think you should go get a job as a busboy or something until you find something you're really passionate about because it's a lot of work". I'm convinced that about half of what separates the successful entrepreneurs from the non-successful ones is pure perseverance. It is so hard. You put so much of your life into this thing. There are such rough moments in time that I think most people give up. I don't blame them. Its really tough and it consumes your life. If you've got a family and you're in the early days of a company, I can't imagine how one could do it. I'm sure its been done but its rough. Its pretty much an eighteen hour day job, seven days a week for awhile. Unless you have a lot of passion about this, you're not going to survive. You're going to give it up. So you've got to have an idea, or a problem or a wrong that you want to right that you're passionate about otherwise you're not going to have the perseverance to stick it through. I think that's half the battle right there.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：我经常被问到这个问题，我有一个非常标准的答案，那就是，很多人来找我，说 "我想成为一名企业家"。我说："哦，那太好了，你有什么想法？他们说 "我还没有"。我说："我觉得你应该去找份杂工之类的工作，直到你找到自己真正热爱的事情，因为这工作很累"。我深信，成功的创业者和不成功的创业者之间的差距有一半是纯粹的毅力。这太难了。你为这件事倾注了太多的心血。我认为大多数人都会在某些艰难时刻放弃。我不怪他们。这真的很艰难，它耗尽了你的生命。如果你有一个家庭，而你又处于公司的早期阶段，我无法想象一个人如何能做到这一点。我相信有人能做到，但这很艰难。在一段时间内，每天工作 18 小时，每周工作 7 天。除非你对此充满热情，否则你将无法生存下去。你会放弃它。因此，你必须有一个想法，或一个问题，或一个你想纠正的错误，你对它充满热情，否则你不会有毅力坚持到底。我认为这就是成功的一半。

DM: You're talking made me think of the other side of that. You talk about the passion side. What would you say, there's passion and then there's power. What you would say about the responsibilities of power, once you've achieved a certain level of success?

DM: 你的谈话让我想到了它的另一面。你谈到了激情的一面。你怎么说，有激情就有权力。一旦你取得了一定程度的成功，你会如何看待权力的责任？

Steve Jobs:Power? What is that?

史蒂夫·乔布斯：力量？那是什么？

DM: You need passion to build a company like Apple or IBM or any other major company. Once you've taken the passion to that level and built a company and are in the position like a Bill Gates at Microsoft or anybody else, yourself, what are the responsibilities of those who have succeeded and have economic power, social power? I mean, you've changed the world. What are your responsibilities within that?

DM: 你需要激情来建立一家像苹果、IBM 或其他大公司这样的公司。一旦你把激情提升到那个层次，建立了一家公司，并处于像微软的比尔-盖茨或其他任何人那样的地位，你自己，那些已经成功并拥有经济力量和社会力量的人的责任是什么？我的意思是，你已经改变了世界。你的责任是什么？

Steve Jobs:That question can be taken on many levels. Obviously if you're running a company you have responsibilities but as an individual I don't think you have responsibilities. I think the work speaks for itself. I don't think that people have special responsibilities just because they've done something that other people like or don't like. I think the work speaks for itself. I think people could choose to do things if they want to but we're all going to be dead soon, that's my point of view. Somebody once told me, they said "Live each day as if it would be your last and one day you'll certainly be right." I do that. You never know when you're going to go but you are going to go pretty soon. If you're going to leave anything behind its going to be your kids, a few friends and your work. So that's what I tend to worry about. I don't tend to think about responsibility. A matter of fact I tend to like to on occasion pretend I don't have any responsibilities. I try to remember the last day when I didn't have anything to do and didn't have anything to do the following day that I had to do and I had no responsibilities. It was decades ago. I pretend when I want to feel that way. I don't think in those terms. I think you have a responsibility to do really good stuff and get it out there for people to use and let them build on the shoulders of it and keep making better stuff.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：这个问题有很多层面。显然，如果你经营一家公司，你就有责任，但作为个人，我不认为你有责任。我认为工作本身就能说明问题。我不认为人们会因为做了别人喜欢或不喜欢的事情而承担特别的责任。我认为作品本身就能说明问题。我认为，如果人们愿意，可以选择做一些事情，但我们很快都会死去，这就是我的观点。有人曾对我说过 "把每一天都当做最后一天来过，有一天你会发现自己是对的"，我就是这么做的，你永远不知道自己什么时候会离开，但你很快就会离开。如果你要留下什么，那就是你的孩子、几个朋友和你的工作。这就是我所担心的。我不太考虑责任。事实上，我有时喜欢假装自己没有任何责任。我努力回想上一天我没有任何事情要做，第二天也没有任何事情要做，我没有任何责任。那是几十年前的事了。当我想有那种感觉时，我就会假装。我不这么想。我认为你有责任做真正好的东西，并把它拿出来给人们使用，让他们在此基础上继续做出更好的东西。

DM: So the responsibility is to yourself and your own standards.

DM: 所以责任在于你自己和你自己的标准。

Steve Jobs: In our business, one person can't do anything anymore. You create a team of people around you. You have a responsibility of integrity of work to that team. Everybody does try to turn out the best work that they can.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：在我们的业务中，一个人已经什么都做不了了。你要在身边组建一个团队。你有责任对团队的工作负责。每个人都会尽力做出最好的作品。

DM: Any final comments or thoughts either for the record or off the record?

DM：最后有什么评论或想法，可以记录在案，也可以不记录在案？

Steve Jobs: No. Not really. Timeframe's an interesting thing when you think about people looking back. I do think when people look back on this in a hundred years, they're going to see this as a remarkable time in history. And especially this area believe it or not. When you think of the innovation that's come out of this area, Silicon Valley and the whole San Francisco Berkeley Bay area, you've got the invention of the integrated circuit, the invention of the microprocessor, the invention of semi-conductor memory, the invention of the modern hard disk drive, the invention of the modern floppy disk drive, the invention of the personal computer, invention of genetic engineering, the invention of object oriented technology, the invention of graphical user interfaces at PARC, followed by Apple, the invention of networking. All that happened in this bay area. Its incredible.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：没有。当人们回首往事时，时间框架是个有趣的东西。我确实认为，当人们在一百年后回顾这段历史时，他们会认为这是一段非凡的历史。尤其是这一领域，不管你信不信。硅谷和整个旧金山伯克利湾区的创新，包括集成电路的发明、微处理器的发明、半导体存储器的发明、现代硬盘驱动器的发明、现代软盘驱动器的发明、个人电脑的发明、基因工程的发明、面向对象技术的发明、PARC 的图形用户界面的发明、苹果公司的发明、网络的发明。所有这些都发生在这个海湾地区。令人难以置信。

DM: Why do you think it happened? Why here?

DM: 你认为为什么会这样？为什么在这里？

Steve Jobs: Two or three reasons. You have to go back a little history. I mean this is where the beatnik happened in San Francisco. Its a pretty interesting thing. This is where the hippy movement happened. This is the only place in America where Rock 'n Roll really happened. Right? Most of the bands in this country, Bob Dylan in the 60's, I mean they all came out of here. I think of Joan Baez to Jefferson Airplane to the Grateful Dead. Everything came out of here, Janis Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, everybody. Why is that? You've also had Stanford and Berkeley, two awesome universities drawing smart people from all over the world and depositing them in this clean, sunny, nice place where there's a whole bunch of other smart people and pretty good food. And at times a lot of drugs and all of that. So they stayed. There's a lot of human capital pouring in. Really smart people. People seem pretty bright here relative to the rest of the country. People seem pretty open-minded here relative to the rest of the country. I think its just a very unique place and its got a track record to prove it and that tends to attract more people. I give a lot of credit to the universities, probably the most credit of anything to Stanford and Berkeley, UC California.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：两三个原因。你得回顾一下历史。我是说，这里是旧金山的垮掉派发生的地方。这是一个相当有趣的事情。这是嬉皮士运动发生的地方。这是美国唯一真正发生摇滚乐的地方，对吧？这个国家的大多数乐队，60 年代的鲍勃·迪伦，我是说，他们都是从这里出来的。我想到琼·巴埃兹、杰弗逊飞机乐队、感恩而死乐队。一切都来自这里，贾尼斯·乔普林、吉米·亨德里克斯，大家都是。为什么会这样？你还有斯坦福和伯克利这两所优秀的大学，吸引来自世界各地的聪明人，把他们安置在这个干净、阳光明媚、宜人的地方，这里有很多其他聪明人和相当不错的食物。有时还有很多毒品等等。所以他们留下来了。大量的人力资本涌入。真的聪明的人。与全国其他地方相比，这里的人似乎相当聪明。与全国其他地方相比，这里的人似乎相当开放。 我认为这只是一个非常独特的地方，它有着证明这一点的历史记录，这往往会吸引更多的人。 我非常感谢大学，可能最感谢的是斯坦福大学和加州大学伯克利分校，加州大学。

DM: Well, I cannot tell you how much we appreciate this.

DM: 我无法表达我们的感激之情。

Steve Jobs:  Sure, I hope its helpful.

史蒂夫·乔布斯：当然，希望对你有帮助。

END OF INTERVIEW   采访结束