1998-11-09 Steve Jobs.The Three Faces Of Steve
November 9, 1998 1998 年 11 月 9 日
(FORTUNE Magazine) – Well into the conversation with FORTUNE that you're about to read, Steve Jobs, the once and interim CEO of Apple Computer, professes to feel, at the wizened age of 43, no different from when he was a frisky 17-year-old. True to form, he contradicts himself a little later, confessing to be "an old man now." Those comments reveal as much about why Jobs has been able to pull off his prestidigital revival of Apple--his first and still greatest creation--as do his observations on his business strategies and actions of the past year.
（财富杂志）——在与《财富》杂志的对话中，苹果电脑的前任和临时首席执行官史蒂夫·乔布斯坦言，在 43 岁这个年纪，他感觉与 17 岁时并无不同。然而，稍后他又自相矛盾地承认自己“现在是个老头子了”。这些评论揭示了乔布斯为何能够成功复兴苹果——他第一个也是迄今为止最伟大的创作——这与他对过去一年商业策略和行动的观察一样多。
Here's why. Jobs is most effective as a businessman and leader when he invokes the pathos and gestalt of his generation. He is, after all, a child of the 1960s--you're still likely to find him barefoot in the office, and for breakfast he eats granola doused in apple juice. Yet Jobs is also a mature baby-boomer, with an impressive if offbeat store of business experience, plus the typical worries that go with having a daughter in college and three tykes at home.
这就是原因。作为商人和领导者，乔布斯在唤起他那一代人的情感和整体观时最为有效。毕竟，他是 20 世纪 60 年代的孩子——你仍然可能在办公室里看到他光着脚，他的早餐是浸泡在苹果汁中的燕麦片。然而，乔布斯也是一个成熟的婴儿潮一代，拥有丰富而独特的商业经验，以及典型的担忧，比如有一个在上大学的女儿和三个在家的小孩。
So it's no wonder that Apple, which still carries Steve's genes and has always been as much a cultural phenomenon as a purveyor of computers, is responding dramatically to his patently iconoclastic yet subtly more seasoned leadership. The Jobs style also seems to click at the other company he heads: Pixar Animation Studios, a place that blends Silicon Valley stock options and technical rigor with the fanciful creativity of the movie biz (see box).
因此，苹果公司仍然承载着史蒂夫的基因，并且一直以来不仅仅是计算机的供应商，更是一个文化现象，这样的公司对他明显标新立异但又更加成熟的领导风格做出剧烈反应也就不足为奇了。乔布斯的风格似乎在他领导的另一家公司也很奏效：皮克斯动画工作室，这个地方将硅谷的股票期权和技术严谨性与电影行业的奇思妙想相结合（见框）。
Listening to Jobs talk about his companies and his personal life, one can tell he believes he has finally, after more than two decades, found the formula that lets him be what he's always been best at: a consumer technology impresario, an adroit chief executive, and, at heart, a cultural revolutionary. Call them the three faces of Steve.
听乔布斯谈论他的公司和个人生活，可以看出他相信自己终于在二十多年后找到了让他成为他一直以来最擅长的角色的公式：一位消费技术大师，一位精明的首席执行官，以及内心深处的文化革命者。称之为史蒂夫的三个面孔。
Friends, competitors, and even former foes agree that Jobs has wrung out much of whatever was dysfunctional in his mercurial style. Listen to Regis McKenna, the marketing guru who 20 years ago showed Steve the ropes in high-tech promotion: "Steve has matured. You know how I can tell? He asked lots of people for advice when he returned to Apple and actually listened to them. He's learned from his mistakes. What better accolade can you give him?"
朋友、竞争对手，甚至是以前的敌人都同意，乔布斯已经从他善变的风格中去除了许多不合常规的东西。听听雷吉斯·麦肯纳，这位 20 年前在高科技推广方面为史蒂夫指点迷津的营销大师怎么说：“史蒂夫已经成熟了。你知道我怎么能看出来吗？他回到苹果时向很多人征求意见，并且真的听取了他们的建议。他从错误中吸取了教训。你还能给他什么更好的赞誉呢？”
Or how about this appraisal by John Sculley, the ex-Apple CEO who squeezed Jobs out of the company in 1985: "The turnaround isn't a fluke. It's back to the future. Steve has done an absolutely sensational job of turning Apple into what he always wanted it to be."
或者看看前苹果公司首席执行官约翰·斯卡利的评价，他在 1985 年将乔布斯挤出了公司：“这次转变不是偶然的。这是回到未来。史蒂夫在将苹果变成他一直想要的样子方面做得非常出色。”
If there's a new balance to Jobs, it may arise in large part from the fact that his two companies are so different and require orthogonal skills. Larry Ellison, founder and CEO of Oracle, an Apple director and close friend of Jobs', observes: "Pixar is good for Steve, because although he is basically the owner of the company, he is not the owner or creator of the movies it makes, and he knows it. At Apple it's the other way around. He owns only one share of Apple stock, yet he clearly owns the product and the idea behind the company. The Mac is the expression of his creativity, and Apple as a whole is an expression of Steve. That's why, despite the 'interim' in his title, he'll stay at Apple for a long time."
如果乔布斯有了新的平衡，很大程度上可能是因为他的两家公司截然不同，需要不同的技能。甲骨文创始人兼首席执行官、苹果董事及乔布斯的密友拉里·埃里森指出：“皮克斯对史蒂夫有好处，因为尽管他基本上是公司的所有者，但他并不是它制作的电影的所有者或创作者，他知道这一点。在苹果则正好相反。他只拥有一股苹果股票，但他显然拥有产品和公司背后的理念。Mac 是他创造力的体现，而苹果整体上是史蒂夫的体现。这就是为什么，尽管他的头衔中有‘临时’一词，他仍会在苹果待很长时间。”
Another thing that might keep Jobs at Apple is his penchant for challenging computer industry orthodoxy. In the early days Jobs and co-founder Steve Wozniak used the groundbreaking Apple II personal computer to foment an insurgency against big-iron mainframe computing. Steve's most famous baby, the winsome Macintosh, was an attempt to overthrow the growing dominion of the vapid IBM PC and its appropriately named "clones." Now, with the iMac and other stylish, Internet-friendly machines sure to come, Steve is renewing his holy war with the inelegant, overly complex, beige blandness of PC computing. Once a zealot, always a zealot.
乔布斯可能留在苹果的另一个原因是他喜欢挑战计算机行业的正统观念。在早期，乔布斯和联合创始人史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克利用开创性的 Apple II 个人电脑掀起了一场针对大型主机计算的叛乱。史蒂夫最著名的作品，迷人的 Macintosh，是试图推翻日益增长的平庸 IBM PC 及其名副其实的“克隆”统治。现在，随着 iMac 和其他时尚、适合互联网的机器的推出，史蒂夫正在与 PC 计算中不优雅、过于复杂、平淡无奇的米色进行新的圣战。曾经是狂热者，永远是狂热者。
But then, maybe it's the times that have changed, more than Steve. Computers today are the biggest-selling of all consumer electronics products. A rich vein of new buyers are consumer holdouts who, under pressure from their kids or in reaction to plunging prices, are finally ready to go digital. Steve's obsession with style, simplicity, and ease of use might well speak to them.
但也许是时代变了，而不是史蒂夫。如今，电脑是所有消费电子产品中销量最大的。一大批新的买家是那些在孩子的压力下或因价格暴跌而终于准备走向数字化的消费者。史蒂夫对风格、简约和易用性的痴迷可能正好迎合了他们。
Stories of his petulance as a boss still abound. At Apple his fingerprints are all over the products, the marketing, even the cafeteria (he replaced the old food-service company with an outfit run by the former manager of Il Fornaio, the Palo Alto trattoria). As you can tell in the interview that follows, he is still incapable of mincing words. Intel Chairman Andy Grove, long a Jobs admirer, perhaps says it best: "Steve will always be Steve. The only thing that will change is that he will lose some more of his hair."
关于他作为老板的任性行为的故事仍然很多。在苹果公司，他的印记遍布产品、营销，甚至是自助餐厅（他用一家由前 Il Fornaio 餐厅经理经营的公司取代了旧的食品服务公司）。正如你在接下来的采访中可以看出，他仍然无法拐弯抹角。长期以来一直钦佩乔布斯的英特尔董事长安迪·格罗夫也许说得最好：“史蒂夫永远是史蒂夫。唯一会改变的是他会再掉一些头发。”
You knew it would be bleak when you went back to Apple. Just how bad was it?
你回到苹果时就知道情况会很惨淡。到底有多糟糕？
Much worse than I could imagine. The people had been told they were losers for so long they were on the verge of giving up. The first six months were very bleak, and at times I got close to throwing in the towel too.
比我想象的要糟糕得多。人们被告知他们是失败者已经很久了，他们几乎要放弃了。最初的六个月非常惨淡，有时我也几乎要放弃。
I'd never been so tired in my life. I'd come home at about ten o'clock at night and flop straight into bed, then haul myself out at six the next morning and take a shower and go to work. My wife deserves all the credit for keeping me at it. She supported me and kept the family together with a husband in absentia.
我这辈子从未如此疲惫过。我晚上大约十点回到家，直接倒在床上，然后第二天早上六点拖着自己起来，洗个澡去上班。我妻子功不可没，她支持我，并在我不在家的情况下维持家庭的运转。
A lot of people thought you had a plan in mind when you walked in the door because you moved so swiftly to cut off the clone business and extraneous projects like the Newton.
很多人认为你走进门时心里有个计划，因为你迅速终止了克隆业务和像Newton这样的无关项目。
In a situation like that, you don't have time to study everything. But, yeah, I had some ideas. What I told people was that every decision didn't have to be right, just enough of them had to be right, so don't get paralyzed. There were some very hard decisions to make. Like the decision to end the clone business. In hindsight that looks smart, but have you ever gotten death threats? That was scary.
在那种情况下，你没有时间去研究一切。但是，是的，我有一些想法。我告诉人们的是，每个决定不必都正确，只要足够多的决定是正确的就行，所以不要陷入瘫痪。有一些非常艰难的决定要做。比如结束克隆业务的决定。事后看来那是明智的，但你有没有收到过死亡威胁？那真的很可怕。
FORTUNE ran a story right after you came back to Apple in which we accused you of acting cynically, of returning just to satisfy your ego.
《财富》杂志在你回到苹果后不久发表了一篇文章，指责你行为玩世不恭，认为你只是为了满足自己的自尊心而回来。
If I was cynical, why would I have put myself through all that?
如果我很愤世嫉俗，我为什么要让自己经历这一切呢？
But why did you sell all but one of your Apple shares before you even started trying to revive the company? You had to know that would send a bad signal.
但是，为什么在你甚至还没开始尝试重振公司之前，就卖掉了除一股以外的所有苹果股票？你应该知道这会发出不好的信号。
There's an explanation. During the negotiations when Apple wanted to buy Next, Apple said it would pay me 1.5 million shares in stock--which was about a sixth of my share of the purchase price--and the rest in cash. There was a catch: They wanted it to be unregistered stock so I couldn't sell it for six months.
有一个解释。在苹果想要收购 Next 的谈判中，苹果表示会支付我 150 万股股票——这大约是我所占购买价格的六分之一——其余部分以现金支付。有一个条件：他们希望这些股票是未注册的，这样我就不能在六个月内出售。
It was a big mistake, and here's why. At the end of six months they had to register the stock with the SEC as they promised. When they did, the business press--a la you guys--assumed I was preparing to sell, even though I hadn't even thought about selling. When that all blew up, I thought, "Gee, Apple's taking a big PR hit on this. If I sell in three or six months, there will be a second hit, so I might as well sell now."
这是一个大错误，原因如下。六个月结束时，他们必须按照承诺向美国证券交易委员会注册股票。当他们这样做时，商业媒体——就像你们这些人——以为我准备出售股票，尽管我根本没想过要卖。当这一切爆发时，我想，“天哪，苹果在这件事上遭受了很大的公关打击。如果我在三到六个月后出售，将会有第二次打击，所以我不如现在就卖掉。”
This was, by the way, before the Apple board began to twist my arm to come back and run the company. Gil Amelio was running the place. So I was also thinking, "Do I really want this $20 million worth of stock when I think the company is going to be worthless in a year?" So I sold it. Literally within a few days, I got a call from [Apple director] Ed Woolard to discuss coming back.
顺便说一下，那是在苹果董事会开始逼我回来管理公司之前。吉尔·阿梅里奥当时在管理公司。所以我也在想，“当我认为公司在一年内会变得一文不值时，我真的想要这价值两千万美元的股票吗？”所以我卖掉了。就在几天之内，我接到了[苹果董事]埃德·伍拉德的电话，讨论回来的事。
Selling that stock actually was a good thing. I don't get a salary at Apple. I get a dollar a year so that my family can be on the health plan, but that's it. You could argue, as you did, that I don't have a stake in Apple. But I was able to walk in with some moral authority and say, "Look, this isn't about me or the money I'm going to make. This is about what's right for Apple." It was purer in some ways.
实际上，卖掉那只股票是件好事。我在苹果公司没有工资。我每年只拿一美元，这样我的家人就可以享受健康计划，仅此而已。你可以像你所说的那样争论我在苹果没有股份。但我能够以某种道德权威走进来并说：“看，这不是关于我或我将赚多少钱。这是关于对苹果公司有利的事情。”在某些方面，这更纯粹。
Let's look ahead now. The iMac has begun shoring up Apple's market share. But can you really hope to make your share grow?
现在让我们展望未来。iMac 已经开始巩固苹果的市场份额。但你真的能希望让你的份额增长吗？
There are three kinds of iMac purchasers: No. 1, the Macintosh installed base; that's the most important segment. We're constantly listening to those folks, and we'll try to build computers that they want and need. They seem to be responding to the iMac.
iMac 的购买者有三种：第一种是 Macintosh 的现有用户群；这是最重要的部分。我们一直在倾听这些人的意见，并努力制造他们想要和需要的电脑。他们似乎对 iMac 反应良好。
The second kind is new users. Between five million and ten million new users will enter the market in the next year or two, and we'd like to get a much greater proportion of those than our current market share. We're in a pretty good position to do that.
第二种是新用户。在未来一到两年内，将有五百万到一千万新用户进入市场，我们希望从中获得比我们目前市场份额更大的比例。我们处于一个相当有利的位置来实现这一目标。
The third place to get customers is from the Wintel installed base. Now, the Wintel market is actually two: diehard PC users--and we know we're not going to get many of them--and former Mac users who converted to Wintel. We are getting some of those people back.
获取客户的第三个地方是来自 Wintel 的安装基础。现在，Wintel 市场实际上分为两类：顽固的 PC 用户——我们知道我们不会从他们中获得很多客户——以及转投 Wintel 的前 Mac 用户。我们正在重新吸引其中的一些人。
Now that you've stabilized the ship, will Apple start pioneering again?
既然你已经稳定了这艘船，苹果会再次开始开拓吗？
The iMac is a pretty good indication of where we're headed. The whole strategy for Apple now is, if you will, to be the Sony of the computer business.
iMac 是我们前进方向的一个很好的指示。苹果现在的整体战略是，若你愿意，可以说是成为电脑行业的索尼。
I don't really believe that televisions and computers are going to merge. I've spent enough time in entertainment to know that storytelling is linear. It's not interactive. You go to your TV when you want to turn your brain off. You go to your computer when you want to turn your brain on. Those are not the same.
我并不真的相信电视和电脑会合并。我在娱乐行业待了足够长的时间，知道讲故事是线性的。它不是互动的。当你想让大脑放松时，你会去看电视。当你想让大脑活跃时，你会去用电脑。这两者是不一样的。
短视频的护城河远不如朋友圈和搜索引擎，不活跃的电脑更容易被牵着走。
Computers have a bright future. The question is, where can Apple fit in? Dell and Compaq and Hewlett-Packard sell mainly to the corporate market. Yet there's this whole consumer market, which hardly anybody with the right skills is focusing on.
计算机有着光明的未来。问题是，苹果能在哪里立足？戴尔、康柏和惠普主要面向企业市场销售。然而，还有整个消费者市场，几乎没有具备正确技能的人在关注。
In audio and video electronics, Sony has a consumer products business, which is their core, and a professional business, which serves broadcasters. Well, our professional business is our design/publishing business, and our consumer business is education and pure consumers. The consumer business is pretty cool because it's very high-volume and you really get to interact with individual customers.
在音频和视频电子产品方面，索尼有一个面向消费者的产品业务，这是他们的核心，还有一个面向广播公司的专业业务。我们的专业业务是我们的设计/出版业务，而我们的消费者业务是教育和纯消费者。消费者业务非常酷，因为它的量非常大，你可以真正与个人客户互动。
Beyond that, Apple's the only PC company left that makes the whole widget--hardware and software. That means Apple can really decide that it will make a system dramatically easier to use, which is a great asset when you're going after consumers.
除此之外，苹果是唯一一家仍然制造整个组件（硬件和软件）的电脑公司。这意味着苹果可以真正决定让系统变得更容易使用，这在吸引消费者时是一个巨大的优势。
The technology isn't the hard part. The hard part is, What's the product? Or, Who's the customer? How are they going to buy it? How do you tell them about it? So besides having the ideas and the technology and the manufacturing, you have to have good marketing to be able to reach the consumer.
技术不是难点。难点在于，产品是什么？或者，谁是客户？他们将如何购买？你如何告诉他们？所以除了拥有创意、技术和制造之外，你还必须有良好的营销才能够接触到消费者。
Can we expect Apple to move into related consumer electronics businesses?
我们能否期待苹果进军相关消费电子业务？
If Mercedes made a bicycle or a hamburger or a computer, I don't think there'd be much advantage in having its logo on it. I don't think Apple would get much equity putting its name on an automobile, either. And just because the whole world is going digital--TV, audio, and all that--doesn't mean there's anything wrong with just being in the computer business. The computer business is huge.
如果奔驰制造自行车、汉堡或电脑，我认为在上面印上它的标志不会有太大优势。我也不认为苹果在汽车上印上自己的名字会获得多少价值。而且，仅仅因为全世界都在数字化——电视、音频等等——并不意味着只专注于计算机业务有什么问题。计算机业务是巨大的。
Listen, consumers are smart enough to know what the boundaries of brands are. If Apple can find things that are complementary to its core, that's great. I thought buying the PalmPilot from 3Com would have been complementary, but it didn't come to pass. I won't go into what other complementary things there might be, but when you look back in a year, it will all make sense.
听着，消费者足够聪明，知道品牌的界限在哪里。如果苹果能找到与其核心互补的东西，那就太好了。我认为从 3Com 购买 PalmPilot 本来是互补的，但这并没有实现。我不会详细讨论其他可能的互补事物，但当你在一年后回顾时，一切都会有意义。
Here's a problem I see in spotting new products. People focus too much on entirely new ideas, as if that's what's required to grow a new business. Maybe that's not the right way to do it. Most good products really are extensions of previous products.
我在发现新产品时看到一个问题。人们过于关注全新的想法，仿佛这就是发展新业务所需的。也许这不是正确的方法。大多数好的产品实际上是以前产品的延伸。
For example, computers are still awful. They're too complicated and don't do what you really want them to do--or do those things as well as they could. We have a long way to go. People are still making automobiles after nearly 100 years. Telephones have been around a long time, but even so the cellular revolution was pretty exciting. That's why I think the computer revolution is still in its early stages. There's a lot of room for doing new and exciting things with the same basic product.
例如，计算机仍然很糟糕。它们太复杂了，不能真正做你想让它们做的事情——或者不能很好地完成这些事情。我们还有很长的路要走。人们在将近 100 年后仍在制造汽车。电话已经存在很长时间了，但即便如此，移动革命还是相当令人兴奋的。这就是为什么我认为计算机革命仍处于早期阶段的原因。对于同样的基本产品，还有很多空间可以做新的和令人兴奋的事情。
You're CEO of not one but two companies that are very different. Tell us about some of those differences.
你不仅是一家公司的首席执行官，而且是两家非常不同的公司的首席执行官。请告诉我们其中的一些差异。
Apple has some pretty amazing people, but the collection of people at Pixar is the highest concentration of remarkable people that I have ever witnessed. There's a person who's got a Ph.D. in computer-generated plants--3-D grass and trees and flowers. There's another who is the best in the world at putting imagery on film. Also, Pixar is more multidisciplinary than Apple ever will be. But the key thing is that it is much smaller. Pixar's got 450 people. You could never have the collection of people that Pixar has now if you went to 2,000 people.
苹果公司有一些非常了不起的人，但我见过的最杰出的人才集中地是皮克斯。有一个人拥有计算机生成植物的博士学位——3D 草、树和花。还有一个人在将图像放到电影上是世界上最优秀的。此外，皮克斯比苹果更具多学科性。但关键是它要小得多。皮克斯有 450 人。如果你增加到 2000 人，就不可能拥有皮克斯现在这样的人才集合。
Another difference is that all the things in the computer business that we labored over 20 years ago are now discarded--part of the sedimentary layer. Nobody uses an Apple II anymore. Yet when Snow White [Disney's first big animated film] was re-released a few years back, we were one of the tens of millions of families that went to see it. That film is 60 years old, and my son loved it. I'd like to think people are going to love [Pixar's upcoming movie] A Bug's Life 60 years from now. But I doubt anybody will be beating on a Macintosh 60 years from now.
另一个区别是，20 年前我们在计算机行业辛苦劳作的所有东西现在都被抛弃了——成为沉积层的一部分。现在没有人再使用 Apple II。然而，当《白雪公主》（迪士尼的第一部大型动画电影）几年前重新上映时，我们是数千万个去观看的家庭之一。那部电影已经有 60 年历史了，我的儿子很喜欢。我希望人们在 60 年后会喜欢《虫虫危机》（皮克斯即将上映的电影）。但我怀疑 60 年后还会有人使用 Macintosh。
Have you seen Antz [a computer-animated film distributed by DreamWorks that is strikingly similar to A Bug's Life]?
你看过《蚁哥正传》[由梦工厂发行的电脑动画电影，与《虫虫特工队》非常相似]吗？
I should have, but I've just been too busy. That reminds me of another big difference between Apple and Pixar: The computer business is a zero-sum game. If a customer buys the other guy's computer, he won't buy yours. But in the film industry, time and again, audiences have shown that if there are three really good films out there, they'll go see all three; but if there are three not-so-good films, they won't go see any. If A Bug's Life is really good, Antz is not going to hurt us much, even if it's really good too. We're competing with "Can we make a great movie?," not with Antz or another studio.
我本应该这样做，但我实在太忙了。这让我想起苹果和皮克斯之间的另一个重大区别：计算机业务是一个零和游戏。如果顾客买了别人的电脑，他就不会买你的。但在电影行业，观众一次又一次地表明，如果有三部非常好的电影，他们会去看全部三部；但如果有三部不太好的电影，他们一部也不会去看。如果《虫虫危机》真的很好，即使《蚁哥正传》也很好，也不会对我们造成太大影响。我们的竞争是“我们能拍出一部好电影吗？”，而不是与《蚁哥正传》或其他工作室竞争。
People you've worked with say the word that best describes your management style is persistent. Where did you get your persistence?
与你共事过的人说，最能形容你的管理风格的词是坚持不懈。你的坚持不懈是从哪里来的？
I don't think of it as persistence at all. When I was growing up, a guy across the street had a Volkswagen Bug. He really wanted to make it into a Porsche. He spent all his spare money and time accessorizing this VW, making it look and sound loud. By the time he was done, he did not have a Porsche. He had a loud, ugly VW.
我根本不认为这是一种坚持。在我成长的过程中，街对面有个家伙有一辆大众甲壳虫。他真的想把它改成保时捷。他花了所有的闲钱和时间来装饰这辆大众，让它看起来和听起来都很响亮。当他完成时，他并没有得到一辆保时捷。他得到的是一辆吵闹、难看的大众。
You've got to be careful choosing what you're going to do. Once you pick something you really care about, and it's a worthwhile thing to do, then you can kind of forget about it and just work at it. The dedication comes naturally.
你必须小心选择你要做的事情。一旦你选择了你真正关心的事情，并且这是一件值得做的事情，那么你就可以有点忘记它，只是努力去做。投入会自然而然地到来。
You seem to enjoy building companies as much as you enjoy building products.
你似乎像喜欢打造产品一样喜欢创建公司。
Uh, no. The only purpose for me in building a company is so that it can make products. Of course, building a very strong company and a foundation of talent and culture is essential over the long run to keep making great products.
呃，不。我建立公司的唯一目的是为了制造产品。当然，从长远来看，建立一个非常强大的公司以及人才和文化的基础对于持续制造出色的产品是至关重要的。
On the other hand, to me, the company is one of humanity's most amazing inventions. It's totally abstract. Sure, you have to build something with bricks and mortar to put the people in, but basically a company is this abstract construct we've invented, and it's incredibly powerful.
另一方面，对我来说，公司是人类最惊人的发明之一。它是完全抽象的。的确，你需要用砖块和灰浆建造一些东西来容纳人们，但基本上公司是我们发明的一个抽象构造，它非常强大。
Still, if you look at your first tenure at Apple, part of your goal was to build a new kind of company. You had much the same goal at Pixar.
不过，如果你回顾你在苹果的第一次任期，你的部分目标是建立一种新型公司。在皮克斯时，你也有相同的目标。
I was lucky to get into computers when it was a very young and idealistic industry. There weren't many degrees offered in computer science, so people in computers were brilliant people from mathematics, physics, music, zoology, whatever. They loved it, and no one was really in it for the money.
我很幸运在计算机行业还很年轻且充满理想主义的时候进入了这个领域。那时计算机科学的学位并不多，所以从事计算机行业的人都是来自数学、物理、音乐、动物学等领域的聪明人。他们热爱这个行业，没有人真正是为了钱而从事这项工作。
My heroes--Dave Packard, for example, left all his money to his foundation; Bob Noyce [the late co-founder of Intel] was another. I'm old enough to have been able to know these guys. I met Andy Grove when I was 21. I called him and told him I'd heard he was really good at operations and asked if I could take him out to lunch. I did that with others too.
我的英雄——例如，戴夫·帕卡德把他所有的钱都留给了他的基金会；鲍勃·诺伊斯[已故的英特尔联合创始人]是另一个。我年纪够大，能够认识这些人。我 21 岁时见过安迪·格罗夫。我打电话给他，告诉他我听说他在运营方面非常出色，并问我是否可以请他吃午饭。我也对其他人这样做过。
These guys were all company builders, and the gestalt of Silicon Valley at that time made a big impression on me. There are people around here who start companies just to make money, but the great companies, well, that's not what they're about.
这些人都是公司创建者，当时硅谷的整体氛围给我留下了深刻的印象。这里有些人创办公司只是为了赚钱，但伟大的公司，并不是为了这个。
Maybe so, but today Silicon Valley seems to be fueled as much by stock options as by idealism.
也许是这样，但如今硅谷似乎同样受到股票期权和理想主义的推动。
Of course you want to have your people share in the wealth you create. At Apple we gave all our employees stock options very early on. We were among the first in Silicon Valley to do that. And when I returned, I took away most of the cash bonuses and replaced them with options. No cars, no planes, no bonuses. Basically, everybody gets a salary and stock.
当然，你希望让你的员工分享你创造的财富。在苹果公司，我们很早就给所有员工提供了股票期权。我们是硅谷最早这样做的公司之一。当我回来的时候，我取消了大部分现金奖金，并用期权取而代之。没有汽车，没有飞机，没有奖金。基本上，大家都拿工资和股票。
The great thing about stock is that if the value of one person's shares goes up, everyone's does. It's a very egalitarian way to run a company that Hewlett-Packard pioneered and that Apple, I would like to think, helped establish.
股票的伟大之处在于，如果一个人的股票价值上升，所有人的股票价值都会上升。这是一种非常平等的公司运营方式，惠普开创了这种方式，而我认为苹果也帮助确立了这种方式。
At Pixar one of the most gratifying things is that there are a lot of folks who don't really care about getting rich but who care a lot about the art or the technology. Yet they will never have to worry about money for the rest of their lives. Their families can live in a nice house, and they can concentrate on what they really love to do. It's wonderful.
在皮克斯，最令人欣慰的事情之一是有很多人并不太在意发财，而是非常关心艺术或技术。然而，他们永远不必为余生的钱担心。他们的家人可以住在漂亮的房子里，他们可以专注于自己真正热爱的事情。这很美好。
You've always taken time to troll for new technologies that you could turn into new kinds of products. Are you able to do that now as much as you used to?
您一直花时间寻找可以转化为新产品的新技术。您现在还能像以前那样做到吗？
There's a certain amount of homework involved, true; but mostly it's just picking up on things you can see on the periphery. Sometimes at night when you're almost asleep, you realize something you wouldn't otherwise have noted. I subscribe to a half-dozen Internet news services, and I get 300 E-mails a day, many from people I don't know, hawking crazy ideas. And I've always paid close attention to the whispers around me.
确实有一定量的家庭作业要做；但大多数时候只是注意到你在边缘可以看到的东西。有时在晚上，当你快要入睡时，你会意识到一些你本不会注意到的事情。我订阅了六个互联网新闻服务，每天收到 300 封电子邮件，其中许多来自我不认识的人，兜售疯狂的想法。而且我一直密切关注我周围的耳语。
You're 43. You've already made it big in business, yet you're not on the downhill slope of your life yet. Have your motivations changed as a middle-ager?
你 43 岁了。你已经在商业上取得了巨大成功，但你的人生还没有走下坡路。作为中年人，你的动机是否发生了变化？
I don't think much about my time of life. I just get up in the morning and it's a new day. Somebody told me when I was 17 to live each day as if it were my last, and that one day I'd be right. I am at a stage where I don't have to do things just to get by. But then I've always been that way because I've never really cared about money that much. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel the same way now as I felt when I was 17.
我不怎么考虑我的人生阶段。我只是早上起床，新的一天开始。有人在我 17 岁时告诉我，要把每一天都当作最后一天来过，总有一天我会是对的。我现在处于一个不需要为了生存而做事的阶段。但我一直都是这样，因为我从来不太在乎钱。我想我想说的是，我现在的感觉和我 17 岁时的感觉一样。
But you react to things differently now.
但你现在对事物的反应不同了。
Of course. I'm an old man. When you're older, you realize that sometimes there's nothing you can do about certain things.
当然。我是个老人。当你年纪大了，你会意识到有些事情有时是无能为力的。
Do you ever think you may be getting a little conservative in your old age?
你有没有想过自己在年老时可能变得有点保守？
One of my role models is Bob Dylan. As I grew up, I learned the lyrics to all his songs and watched him never stand still. If you look at the artists, if they get really good, it always occurs to them at some point that they can do this one thing for the rest of their lives, and they can be really successful to the outside world but not really be successful to themselves. That's the moment that an artist really decides who he or she is. If they keep on risking failure, they're still artists. Dylan and Picasso were always risking failure.
我的榜样之一是鲍勃·迪伦。在我成长过程中，我学会了他所有歌曲的歌词，并看到他从未停下脚步。如果你看看那些艺术家，如果他们真的变得很出色，他们总会在某个时刻意识到，他们可以一辈子只做这一件事，他们可以在外界看来非常成功，但对自己来说却不一定成功。那是一个艺术家真正决定他或她是谁的时刻。如果他们继续冒着失败的风险，他们仍然是艺术家。迪伦和毕加索总是在冒着失败的风险。
This Apple thing is that way for me. I don't want to fail, of course. But even though I didn't know how bad things really were, I still had a lot to think about before I said yes. I had to consider the implications for Pixar, for my family, for my reputation. I decided that I didn't really care, because this is what I want to do. If I try my best and fail, well, I tried my best.
对我来说，这个苹果的事情就是这样。当然，我不想失败。但即使我不知道事情有多糟糕，在我答应之前，我仍然有很多事情要考虑。我必须考虑对皮克斯、对我的家庭、对我的声誉的影响。我决定我并不在乎，因为这是我想做的事情。如果我尽力而为却失败了，好吧，我尽力了。
What makes you become conservative is realizing that you have something to lose. Remember The Whole Earth Catalog? The last edition had a photo on the back cover of a remote country road you might find yourself on while hitchhiking up to Oregon. It was a beautiful shot, and it had a caption that really grabbed me. It said: "Stay hungry. Stay foolish." It wasn't an ad for anything--just one of Stewart Brand's profound statements. It's wisdom. "Stay hungry. Stay foolish."
是什么让你变得保守，是意识到你有东西会失去。还记得《全球概览》吗？最后一版的封底有一张照片，是一条偏远的乡村小路，你可能在搭车去俄勒冈的路上会遇到。那是一张美丽的照片，上面有一句让我印象深刻的标题。它写着：“求知若饥，虚心若愚。”这不是任何东西的广告——只是斯图尔特·布兰德的一句深刻的话。这是智慧。“求知若饥，虚心若愚。”
Do you want to be a mentor to someone who could succeed you?
你想成为一个可以接替你的人导师吗？
I don't think it works that way. You just are yourself, and you work with other people. If you're inspiring to other people, it makes an impression on them. For example, I hear people at Disney talking about what it was like to work with Walt. They loved him. I know that people at Pixar are going to talk about their days with John Lasseter [director of Toy Story and A Bug's Life] in the same way. Who knows? Maybe someday somebody will feel that way about working with me. I have no idea.
我不认为事情是那样运作的。你只是做你自己，并与其他人合作。如果你能激励他人，就会给他们留下深刻印象。例如，我听到迪士尼的人谈论与沃尔特共事的经历。他们都很爱他。我知道皮克斯的人也会以同样的方式谈论他们与约翰·拉塞特（《玩具总动员》和《虫虫危机》的导演）共事的日子。谁知道呢？也许有一天会有人对与我共事有同样的感觉。我不知道。
But if you had a partner or an understudy, wouldn't it reassure those who worry about the word "interim" in your title?
但是，如果你有一个合伙人或替补，难道不会让那些对你职位中“临时”一词感到担忧的人感到安心吗？
Here's what that issue is about. I'm also CEO of Pixar, and I'd like to remain there for the foreseeable future because I love it. That does place some limitations on what I can do at Apple.
这就是问题所在。我也是皮克斯的首席执行官，并且我希望在可预见的未来继续留在那里，因为我热爱它。这确实对我在苹果能做的事情有一些限制。
What happened with me ever since I returned to Apple was that everybody was hounding me about this "interim" business, asking how long I was going to stay. Very early this year I remember waking up and thinking, "This is not my problem. This is their problem. I'm not losing sleep over it, and it doesn't make me work any less hard for Apple." So I just decided, with all the other problems that I'd taken on, that I didn't need this one too, and I haven't looked back a day.
自从我回到苹果后，大家都在追问我关于这个“临时”职位的事情，问我会待多久。今年年初，我记得醒来时想，“这不是我的问题。这是他们的问题。我不会因此失眠，也不会因此减少为苹果工作的努力。”所以我决定，面对我承担的所有其他问题，我不需要再多一个问题，从那以后我就没有回头看过。
What's your biggest screwup in your adult life?
你成年后最大的失误是什么？
Personal stuff. 个人物品。
No regrets about business decisions?
对商业决策没有遗憾吗？
Sure, there are a zillion things I wish I'd done differently. But I think the things you most regret in life are things you didn't do. What you really regret was never asking that girl to dance.
当然，有无数事情我希望我能做得不同。但我认为你在人生中最遗憾的事情是那些你没有做的事情。你真正后悔的是从未邀请那个女孩跳舞。
In business, if I knew earlier what I know now, I'd have probably done some things a lot better than I did, but I also would've probably done some other things a lot worse. But so what? It's more important to be engaged in the present.
在商业中，如果我早些知道我现在知道的事情，我可能会把一些事情做得比我当时做得好得多，但我也可能会把其他一些事情做得更糟。但那又怎样呢？更重要的是活在当下。
I'll give you a perfect example. On vacation recently I was reading this book by [physicist and Nobel laureate] Richard Feynmann. He had cancer, you know. In this book he was describing one of his last operations before he died. The doctor said to him, "Look, Richard, I'm not sure you're going to make it." And Feynmann made the doctor promise that if it became clear he wasn't going to survive, to take away the anesthetic. Do you know why? Feynmann said, "I want to feel what it's like to turn off." That's a good way to put yourself in the present--to look at what's affecting you right now and be curious about it even if it's bad.
我给你一个完美的例子。最近度假时，我在读[物理学家和诺贝尔奖得主]理查德·费曼的这本书。你知道的，他得了癌症。在这本书中，他描述了他去世前的一次手术。医生对他说：“听着，理查德，我不确定你能挺过去。”费曼让医生承诺，如果他显然无法生存，就拿掉麻醉剂。你知道为什么吗？费曼说：“我想感受一下关闭的感觉。”这是一种很好的方式让自己活在当下——去看看现在影响你的是什么，并对它感到好奇，即使它是坏的。
I'll tell you something else that makes you look at things differently. Once you have kids, it doesn't take a very big leap to realize that everybody is a kid. Everybody came out of their mother and was a baby, and hopefully everybody was loved by somebody as much as you love your kids. That may not sound profound, but a lot of people forget that.
我会告诉你另一件让你以不同方式看待事物的事情。一旦你有了孩子，你很容易意识到每个人都是孩子。每个人都是从母亲那里出生的，曾经都是婴儿，并且希望每个人都曾被某人像你爱你的孩子一样爱过。这听起来可能不深刻，但很多人忘记了这一点。
So when we laid some people off at Apple a year ago, or when I have to take people out of their jobs, it's harder for me now. Much harder. I do it because that's my job. But when I look at people when this happens, I also think of them as being 5 years old. And I think that person could be me coming home to tell my wife and kids that I just got laid off. Or that could be one of my kids in 20 years. I never took it so personally before.
所以当我们在一年前在苹果公司裁员时，或者当我不得不让人们离开他们的工作时，现在对我来说更难了。难得多。我这样做是因为这是我的工作。但当我看到人们在这种情况下时，我也会把他们看作是 5 岁的孩子。我想，那个人可能是我回家告诉我的妻子和孩子我刚被解雇了。或者那可能是我 20 年后的一个孩子。我以前从未如此个人化地看待这件事。
Life is short, and we're all going to die really soon. It's true, you know.
人生苦短，我们都很快会死去。这是真的，你知道的。
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