2003-05-24 Steve Jobs.I think I got lucky and had the chutzpah to call these guys up.
Interview with Leslie Berlin
与莱斯利·柏林的访谈
“I think I got lucky and had the chutzpah to call these guys up.”
“我想我运气不错，敢于给这些家伙打电话。”
On May 24, 2003, Steve spoke with Leslie Berlin about his mentor Robert Noyce. Noyce co-invented the microchip and co-founded Intel and Fairchild Semiconductor, the first successful silicon microchip company in Silicon Valley.
2003 年 5 月 24 日，史蒂夫与莱斯利·柏林谈到了他的导师罗伯特·诺伊斯。诺伊斯共同发明了微芯片，并共同创立了英特尔和费尔柴尔德半导体，这是硅谷第一家成功的硅微芯片公司。
Leslie Berlin: Why’d you decide to join the Grinnell College board?
莱斯利·柏林：你为什么决定加入格林内尔学院董事会？
Steve Jobs: Bob asked me to do it. I went to a small liberal arts college. Six months officially, and for two years I was kind of a drop-in. And so I’ve always had a soft spot for private liberal arts colleges. You really only find them in America, and they’re a very wonderful thing.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：鲍勃让我去做。我上了一所小型文理学院。正式上学六个月，实际上我有两年时间是随便去的。因此，我一直对私立文理学院有一种特殊的情感。你真的只在美国能找到它们，它们是非常美好的事物。
It was a fun experience. And the funnest part was just traveling down with Bob. We almost died together; I don’t know if you know about this.
这是一段有趣的经历。最有趣的部分就是和鲍勃一起旅行。我们差点一起死去；我不知道你是否知道这件事。
Leslie Berlin: No. 不。
Steve Jobs: Well, Bob’s a pilot, as you know. He flew all kinds of planes. He bought a Seabee. Have you heard about that?
史蒂夫·乔布斯：好吧，鲍勃是个飞行员，你知道的。他飞过各种飞机。他买了一架海鸥飞机。你听说过吗？
Leslie Berlin: I’ve heard that he had this plane.
莱斯利·柏林：我听说他有这架飞机。
Steve Jobs: It was a Seabee. And a Seabee was a World War II plane. They stopped making them probably at the end of the forties. And there were like a hundred of them left. It was a plane whose fuselage was in the shape of the hull of a boat. Its wings were on top; and it could land on a runway or in the water.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：那是一架海蜂飞机。海蜂是一种二战时期的飞机。它们大概在四十年代末停止生产。剩下大约有一百架。这是一架机身形状像船体的飞机。它的机翼在顶部；可以在跑道上或水面上着陆。
He bought one. He had just gotten it, and he called me up and said, “Hey, there’s a Seabee fly-in up at Trinity Lake. […] Do you want to go?” I said, “Sure. Let’s go.” So, we get in the Seabee plane […] and we land in Lake Shasta. We got out and went for a swim, and it was really great. Really great. So we take off again, and it’s getting kind of hot. Bob pulls a lever that he thinks is the air ventilation. But he pulls the wrong lever. He pulled the lever that locks the wheels.
他买了一架。他刚拿到它，就给我打电话说：“嘿，Trinity Lake 有个 Seabee 飞行聚会。……你想去吗？”我说：“当然，走吧。”于是，我们上了 Seabee 飞机……我们降落在 Shasta 湖。我们下了飞机，去游泳，真的很棒。真的很棒。然后我们再次起飞，天气有点热。鲍勃拉了一个他认为是通风的杠杆。但他拉错了杠杆。他拉的是锁定轮子的杠杆。
We get to Trinity Lake, and he’s landing on the runway […] and we hit the tarmac. The wheels on the wings, of course, are locked, so the plane immediately lunges forward. Sparks start flying. We very nearly flipped the plane over. It was only due to his excellent piloting that we survived.
我们到达Trinity湖，他在跑道上着陆……然后我们接触到了跑道。机翼上的轮子当然是锁定的，所以飞机立刻向前冲。火花开始飞溅。我们差点把飞机翻了过来。多亏了他出色的飞行技术，我们才得以幸存。
And I was imagining, as this was all happening, the headlines: “Bob Noyce and Steve Jobs Killed in Fiery Plane Crash.” I think it was pretty close.
我在想，当这一切发生时，头条新闻会是：“鲍勃·诺伊斯和史蒂夫·乔布斯在飞机坠毁中遇难。”我觉得这很接近。
Steve Jobs:I was young. I was in my late twenties. And Bob was—gosh, he must have been in his later forties.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我那时年轻，二十多岁。而鲍勃——天哪，他那时应该快五十了。
Leslie Berlin: He was born in ’27.
莱斯利·柏林：他出生于 27 年。
Steve Jobs: Yeah, and I was born in ’55. So almost thirty years. Yeah, so, he was in his—well, Jesus—in his early fifties. And now that I’m approaching fifty, it’s easy to see how people in their fifties know more than people in their twenties.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：是的，我出生于 55 年。所以差不多三十年。是的，他当时大约五十出头。现在我快五十了，很容易看出五十岁的人比二十岁的人更有见识。
He just kind of tried to give me the lay of the land and tried to give me a perspective that I could only partially understand.
他只是试图给我介绍一下情况，并试图给我一个我只能部分理解的视角。
I think he was interested in what someone in their twenties thought too. And he was fascinated by the personal computer. The personal computer and Intel had nothing to do with each other at that time. So he was fascinated by that stuff. That was it. So we just, we just became buddies.
我想他也对二十多岁的人怎么想感兴趣。他对个人电脑很着迷。那时个人电脑和英特尔没有任何关系。所以他对那些东西很着迷。就这样。我们就成了朋友。
Leslie Berlin:Do you recall any specific conversations or any situations where you were thinking one thing and he was suggesting otherwise, and you did or didn’t listen?
莱斯利·柏林：你还记得有什么具体的对话或情况吗？在那些时候你在想一件事，而他却建议相反的，你是听了还是没听？
Steve Jobs: The things I remember are not the business things. It’s actually more personal stuff. I remember him trying to teach me how to ski better. I remember when I got fired from Apple, he was one of the first people to call me.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我记得的事情不是商业上的，而是更个人的事情。我记得他试图教我如何更好地滑雪。我记得我从苹果被解雇时，他是第一个给我打电话的人之一。
He just had a lot of soul. And I think he was the soul of Intel. Gordon [Moore] and Andy [Grove] are fantastic, but I think Bob, Bob was the soul of that place.
他真的很有灵魂。我认为他是英特尔的灵魂。戈登（摩尔）和安迪（格罗夫）都很棒，但我认为鲍勃，鲍勃是那个地方的灵魂。
Leslie Berlin: One of my favorite quotes from him is where he says that optimism is the essential ingredient for innovation.
莱斯利·柏林：我最喜欢他的一句名言是，他说乐观是创新的基本要素。
Steve Jobs:Well, it’s optimism and passion, because it’s really hard. And if you don’t really, really care about what you’re doing, you’re gonna give up if you’re a sane person—because it’s just super hard. I’m sure it was extremely hard for him at times.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：嗯，这是一种乐观和热情，因为这真的很难。如果你不真的、真的关心你正在做的事情，作为一个理智的人，你会放弃——因为这实在是太难了。我相信对他来说，有时这非常困难。
Steve Jobs: When you get into your fifties—I’m forty-eight, I’m kind of there, pretty much—you’re not grabbing the pencil out of the twenty-five-year-old’s hand to do it better than they are. If you’re smart, you’re hiring twenty-five-year-olds who are smarter than you. You know things that they don’t know, and they know things that you don’t know, and it all works.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：当你进入五十岁时——我四十八岁，差不多到了——你不会从二十五岁年轻人的手中抢过铅笔，想要比他们做得更好。如果你聪明，你会雇佣比你更聪明的二十五岁年轻人。你知道他们不知道的事情，而他们也知道你不知道的事情，这一切都能运作。
It shouldn’t have been Bob that was designing the breakthrough chips, and if it was, then he ain’t running the company. His job was to, number one, recruit; number two, set an overall direction; and number three, you know, inspire and cajole and persuade. And if that’s what he’s known for, that means he’s doing the job. He had his day when he was the young hotshot, and he came through. But that wasn’t the job.
不应该是鲍勃在设计突破性的芯片，如果真是他在做，那他就不应该在公司里。他的工作是，第一，招募；第二，设定整体方向；第三，你知道，激励、劝说和说服。如果这就是他所知的，那就意味着他在做好这份工作。他曾经是年轻的天才，并且表现出色。但那并不是他的工作。
投资和企业运营有些区别的地方是第三点。
Steve Jobs: I called up him and Andy and a few other people, Jerry Sanders [the founder of microchip company AMD]. I just called them up and I said, “Look, I’m young and I’m trying to run with this company. I’m just wondering if I could buy you lunch once a quarter and pick your brain.”
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我给他、安迪和其他几个人打了电话，杰瑞·桑德斯（微芯片公司 AMD 的创始人）。我只是给他们打了电话，我说：“听着，我年轻，我正在努力经营这家公司。我只是想知道我是否可以每季度请你吃一次午餐，向你请教一些问题。”
And everybody I ever asked said yes. It was nice. Bob said yes. Andy Grove said yes; that was how I met Andy. Jerry Sanders said yes. It was pretty wonderful. I was very, very lucky, because I got to meet and get to know a little bit of Hewlett and Packard, too.
而我问过的每个人都说了是。那很好。鲍勃说了是。安迪·格罗夫说了是；这就是我认识安迪的方式。杰瑞·桑德斯说了是。这真是太棒了。我非常非常幸运，因为我也有机会见到并稍微了解了一下惠普和帕卡德。
主动才有进一步的发展和迭代，最朴素的道理。
I sort of feel like that second era of the Valley, the semiconductor companies kind of leading into the early computer companies—I got to smell that, and I always held that very near and dear. And Bob was sort of why.
我有点觉得，硅谷的第二个时代，半导体公司引领着早期的计算机公司——我曾经亲身体验过这一切，我一直对此怀有深厚的感情。而鲍勃就是其中的原因。
Leslie Berlin: Do you think this sort of generational link you’re describing here, in terms of your own relationship with Bob and, to a lesser extent, your relationship with Hewlett and Packard—do you think it’s a feature of the valley, or do you think you just got lucky and had the chutzpah to call these guys up?
莱斯利·柏林：你认为你在这里描述的这种代际联系，关于你与鲍勃的关系，以及在较小程度上你与惠普的关系——你认为这是硅谷的一个特征，还是你只是运气好，有胆量给这些家伙打电话？
Steve Jobs: Well, I think I got lucky and had the chutzpah to call these guys up. However, there are other people who have chutzpah to call people up too. The Google guys called me up, so I had lunch with them. And so I think it still happens a little. I don’t think it ever happened a lot, and I don’t think it happens a lot now. But I think it still happens—it happened a little, and it still happens a little. Maybe most people aren’t interested. They have their own things to worry about.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：嗯，我想我运气不错，有胆量给这些家伙打电话。不过，也有其他人有胆量打电话给别人。谷歌的人给我打过电话，所以我和他们一起吃了午饭。因此，我认为这种情况仍然偶尔发生。我不认为这种情况曾经很多，也不认为现在很多。但我认为它仍然会发生——曾经发生过一点，现在仍然偶尔发生。也许大多数人并不感兴趣，他们有自己的事情要担心。
受到噪音的困扰，极少数的极少数能够不受噪音的困扰。
Steve Jobs: I think there’s a tradition here [in Silicon Valley]. And that doesn’t mean that it’s a well-worn groove that you drop into. It’s not that easy. But there’s role models, and there’s legends, and there’s all sort of folklore—the kind of thing that makes a culture. And many people don’t spend the time to learn about it, which is fine. But some people find themselves in it, and slowly start to absorb it and get curious as to what came before them.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我认为这里（硅谷）有一种传统。这并不意味着这是一个你可以轻松融入的老路子。事情并没有那么简单。但这里有榜样，有传奇，还有各种民间故事——这些构成了文化。许多人并没有花时间去了解这些，这没关系。但有些人发现自己身处其中，慢慢开始吸收这些，并对他们之前的事情产生好奇。
Leslie Berlin: And when you think of Bob giving you the lay of the land, is it along these sorts of lines, in some sense?
莱斯利·柏林：当你想到鲍勃给你介绍情况时，这在某种意义上是否是这样的？
Steve Jobs:Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s sort of like … you know your olfactory sense is your most poignant sense in terms of its connection to your memory? You can smell something, in your thirties, and it’ll take you right back to when you were seven years old. The gift that Bob gave me was that connection and sense of smell, that strong connection back to some wonderful era of this valley that I lived in but [only] through him got a very strong sense of what it was.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：哦，是的，绝对如此。我的意思是，这有点像……你知道你的嗅觉是与你的记忆联系最紧密的感官吗？你可以在三十多岁时闻到某种气味，它会让你立刻回到七岁时。鲍勃给我的礼物就是这种联系和嗅觉，那种强烈的联系让我回到了我生活过的这个山谷的美好时代，但[只有]通过他，我才对那段时期有了非常强烈的感受。
It’s hard to explain. But if you could sort of transmit—when you smell that smell, and it takes you back to when you were seven—if you could give that to somebody else, that was kind of what he was able to give to me. And I don’t know how it happens, but you know it. And I was curious.
这很难解释。但如果你能传达那种感觉——当你闻到那种气味时，它让你回想起七岁时的事情——如果你能把这种感觉传递给别人，那就是他能够给我的那种感觉。我不知道这是怎么发生的，但你知道它的存在。我很好奇。
Leslie Berlin: Why does that sense of connection matter? Why is it so important to you?
莱斯利·柏林：这种连接感为什么重要？对你来说为什么如此重要？
Steve Jobs:There’s a human drama to most everything. You look at it sometimes, and it seems dry as history. But if you peel the onion, there’s humanity underneath.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：大多数事情都有一种人性戏剧。你有时看它，似乎干巴巴的像历史。但如果你剥开洋葱，下面就有人性。
Just to understand what’s going on now—you can’t really do that unless you understand how it got here. There’s a great quote by Schopenhauer. It’s a great quote. I should pull this up. I’ll get it all wrong. I’ve got to go up and get it.
为了理解现在发生的事情，你必须了解它是如何发展到这个地步的。舒本华有一句很好的名言。这是一句很好的名言。我应该把它找出来。我会搞错的。我得去找一下。
[Goes upstairs, grabs Schopenhauer’s On the Suffering of the World, and then reads from it on the stairs.] “He who lives to see two or three generations is like a man who sits some time in the conjurer’s booth at a fair and witnesses the performance twice or thrice in succession. The tricks were meant to be seen only once; and when they are no longer a novelty and cease to deceive, their effect is gone.”
[上楼，拿起叔本华的《世界的痛苦》，然后在楼梯上阅读。] “活到见证两三代人的人，就像一个人在集市的魔术师摊位上坐了一段时间，连续目睹表演两三次。这些把戏本来只应该看一次；当它们不再新奇并停止欺骗时，它们的效果就消失了。”
这就是商业模式中定性的部分。
Steve Jobs:The other thing I admired about Bob was that he gave up the CEO job at Intel. You know, he really did give it up. He wasn’t trying to run it from a back room.
史蒂夫·乔布斯：我钦佩鲍勃的另一件事是他放弃了英特尔的首席执行官职位。你知道，他真的放弃了。他并不是试图在幕后操控。
He understood how important it was to have a succession, to keep the company going, not have it just be a one-man show.
他明白继任的重要性，保持公司运转，而不是让它仅仅成为一个人的表演。
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