2007-05-30 Steve Jobs.Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference

Following is a transcript of the interview Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg conducted with Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates and Apple CEO Steve Jobs at the D5 conference on May 30, 2007.

以下是卡拉·斯威舍和沃尔特·莫斯伯格于 2007 年 5 月 30 日在 D5 会议上与微软董事长比尔·盖茨和苹果首席执行官史蒂夫·乔布斯进行的采访记录。

[Video plays] [视频播放]

Kara: Well, thank you. 卡拉：好吧，谢谢你。

Walt: Before we get started, there were some pioneers–of course, we have the pioneers here on the stage, but there were some other really important pioneers in the video we just saw and a couple of them are here in the audience. Mitch Kapor, who is a regular, could you just stand up, wherever you are? There he is.

沃尔特：在我们开始之前，有一些先驱——当然，我们在台上有先驱，但在我们刚刚看到的视频中还有一些其他非常重要的先驱，他们中的几位在观众中。米奇·卡波尔，您能站起来吗，无论您在哪里？他在那儿。

[Applause] [掌声]

Walt: And Fred Gibbons, who has not come to D before, but is here tonight. Fred. There’s Fred right there.

沃尔特：还有弗雷德·吉本斯，他之前没有来过 D，但今晚在这里。弗雷德。弗雷德就在那儿。

[Applause] [掌声]

Walt: And I don’t know if he’s in the room, but I do want to recognize our fellow journalist, Brent Schlender from Fortune, who, to my knowledge, did the last joint interview these guys did. It was not onstage, but it was Fortune magazine. Brent, I don’t know if you’re in the room. If you are, can you stand? Maybe he’s way over there.

沃尔特：我不知道他是否在场，但我想要提到我们的同行记者，来自《财富》的布伦特·施伦德，据我所知，他进行了这几位的最后一次联合采访。那次采访不是在台上，而是在《财富》杂志上。布伦特，我不知道你是否在场。如果在的话，可以站起来吗？也许他在那边。

[Applause] [掌声]

Kara: So let’s get started. I wanted to ask, there’s been a lot of mano-a-mano/catfight kind of thing in a lot of the blogs and the press and stuff like that, and we wanted to–the first question I was interested in asking is what you think each has contributed to the computer and technology industry, starting with you, Steve, for Bill, and vice versa.

卡拉：那么我们开始吧。我想问一下，很多博客和媒体上都有关于一对一/猫斗之类的讨论，我们想要——我感兴趣的第一个问题是，你认为每个人对计算机和技术行业做出了什么贡献，从你开始，史蒂夫，谈谈比尔，然后反过来。

Steve: Well, you know, Bill built the first software company in the industry and I think he built the first software company before anybody really in our industry knew what a software company was, except for these guys. And that was huge. That was really huge. And the business model that they ended up pursuing turned out to be the one that worked really well, you know, for the industry. I think the biggest thing was, Bill was really focused on software before almost anybody else had a clue that it was really the software.

史蒂夫：嗯，你知道，比尔在这个行业建立了第一家软件公司，我认为他在我们行业的任何人真正知道什么是软件公司之前就建立了第一家软件公司，除了这些人。这是巨大的。这真的很巨大。他们最终追求的商业模式证明是对行业非常有效的。我认为最重要的是，比尔在几乎没有其他人意识到软件真正重要之前，就非常专注于软件。

Kara: Was important? 卡拉：重要吗？

Steve: That’s what I see. I mean, a lot of other things you could say, but that’s the high order bit. And I think building a company’s really hard, and it requires your greatest persuasive abilities to hire the best people you can and keep them at your company and keep them working, doing the best work of their lives, hopefully. And Bill’s been able to stay with it for all these years.

史蒂夫：这就是我所看到的。我的意思是，还有很多其他的事情可以说，但这就是最重要的部分。我认为建立一家公司真的很难，这需要你最大的说服能力来招聘你能找到的最好的人，并让他们留在公司，努力工作，希望能做出他们一生中最好的工作。而比尔能够在这些年里坚持下来。

Walt: Bill, how about the contribution of Steve and Apple?

沃尔特：比尔，史蒂夫和苹果的贡献怎么样？

Bill: Well, first, I want to clarify: I’m not Fake Steve Jobs.

比尔：首先，我想澄清一下：我不是假史蒂夫·乔布斯。

What Steve’s done is quite phenomenal, and if you look back to 1977, that Apple II computer, the idea that it would be a mass-market machine, you know, the bet that was made there by Apple uniquely–there were other people with products, but the idea that this could be an incredible empowering phenomenon, Apple pursued that dream.

史蒂夫所做的确是了不起的。如果你回顾一下1977年，那款Apple II计算机，当时这个想法能成为一个大众市场的机器，你知道，苹果公司在这里做出的赌注是独特的——虽然还有其他公司有类似的产品，但苹果追求了这个梦想，认为它能成为一个令人振奋的现象。

Then one of the most fun things we did was the Macintosh and that was so risky. People may not remember that Apple really bet the company. Lisa hadn’t done that well, and some people were saying that general approach wasn’t good, but the team that Steve built even within the company to pursue that, even some days it felt a little ahead of its time–I don’t know if you remember that Twiggy disk drive and…

然后我们做的最有趣的事情之一就是 Macintosh，那是非常冒险的。人们可能不记得苹果公司真的押注了整个公司。Lisa 的表现并不好，有些人说那种总体方法并不好，但史蒂夫在公司内部组建的团队为了追求这个目标，即使有些日子感觉有点超前——我不知道你是否还记得那个 Twiggy 磁盘驱动器……

Steve: One hundred twenty-eight K.

史蒂夫：128K。

Kara: Oh, the Twiggy disk drive, yes.

卡拉：哦，Twiggy 磁盘驱动器，是的。

Bill: Steve gave a speech once, which is one of my favorites, where he talked about, in a certain sense, we build the products that we want to use ourselves. And so he’s really pursued that with incredible taste and elegance that has had a huge impact on the industry. And his ability to always come around and figure out where that next bet should be has been phenomenal. Apple literally was failing when Steve went back and re-infused the innovation and risk-taking that have been phenomenal. So the industry’s benefited immensely from his work. We’ve both been lucky to be part of it, but I’d say he’s contributed as much as anyone.

比尔：史蒂夫曾经发表过一次演讲，这是我最喜欢的演讲之一，他在演讲中提到，从某种意义上说，我们构建的是我们自己想要使用的产品。因此，他以令人难以置信的品味和优雅追求这一目标，对行业产生了巨大的影响。他总是能够回过头来，找出下一个投资方向，这种能力非常出色。当史蒂夫回归时，苹果实际上正处于失败之中，他重新注入了创新和冒险精神，这种精神是非凡的。因此，行业从他的工作中受益匪浅。我们都很幸运能成为其中的一部分，但我认为他的贡献与任何人都一样多。

Steve: We’ve also both been incredibly lucky to have had great partners that we started the companies with and we’ve attracted great people. I mean, so everything that’s been done at Microsoft and at Apple has been done by just remarkable people, none of which are sitting up here today.

史蒂夫：我们也非常幸运，能有出色的合作伙伴来一起创办公司，并吸引了很多优秀的人才。微软和苹果所做的一切，都是由这些了不起的人完成的，而今天坐在这里的都不是他们。

Kara: Well, not us. 卡拉：好吧，不是我们。

Walt: Not us. So in a way, you’re the stand-ins for all those other people.

沃尔特：不是我们。所以在某种程度上，你们是所有其他人的替身。

Steve: Yeah, in a way, we are. In a very tangible way.

史蒂夫：是的，从某种意义上说，我们是的。以一种非常具体的方式。

Walt: So Bill mentioned the Apple II and 1977 and 30 years ago. And there were a couple of other computers which were aimed at the idea that average people might be able to use them, and looking back on it, a really average-average person might not have been able to use them by today’s standards, but it certainly broadened the base of who could use computers.

沃尔特：比尔提到了苹果 II 和 1977 年，以及 30 年前。还有其他几款计算机旨在让普通人能够使用，回顾起来，按照今天的标准，真正的普通人可能无法使用它们，但这确实扩大了能够使用计算机的人的基础。

I actually looked at an Apple ad from 1978. It was a print ad. That shows you how ancient it was. And it said, thousands of people have discovered the Apple computer. Thousands of people. And it also said, you don’t want to buy one of these computers where you put a cartridge in. I think that was a reference to one of the Atari or something.

我实际上看了一则 1978 年的苹果广告。那是一则印刷广告。这显示了它有多古老。广告上说，成千上万的人发现了苹果电脑。成千上万的人。广告还说，你不想买那种需要插入卡带的电脑。我认为那是指某个雅达利的产品。

Steve: Oh, no. 史蒂夫：哦，不。

Walt: You want a computer you can write your own programs on. And obviously, people still do.

沃尔特：你想要一台可以自己编写程序的电脑。显然，人们仍然这样做。

Steve: We had some very strange ads back then. We had one where it was in a kitchen and there was a woman that looked like the wife and she was typing in recipes on the computer with the husband looking on approvingly in the back. Stuff like that.

史蒂夫：那时候我们有些非常奇怪的广告。比如有一个广告是在厨房里，那个女人看起来像是妻子，她在电脑上输入食谱，而丈夫在后面满意地看着。就是这种广告。

Walt: How did that work for you?

沃尔特：那对你来说效果如何？

Steve: I don’t think well.

史蒂夫：我觉得我思维不太清晰。

Walt: I know you started Microsoft prior to 1977. I think Apple started the year before, in ’76.

沃尔特：我知道你在 1977 年之前就创办了微软。我认为苹果是在前一年，也就是 1976 年成立的。

Steve: ’76. 史蒂夫：76。

Walt: Microsoft in … 沃尔特：微软在……

Bill: ’74 was when we started writing BASIC. Then we shipped the BASIC in ’75.

比尔：’74 年是我们开始编写 BASIC 的时候。然后我们在’75 年发布了 BASIC。

Walt: Some people here, but I don’t think most people, know that there was actually some Microsoft software in that Apple II computer. You want to talk about what happened there, how that occurred?

沃尔特：这里有些人，但我认为大多数人并不知道那台苹果 II 电脑里实际上有一些微软的软件。你想谈谈发生了什么，以及是如何发生的吗？

Bill: Yeah. There had been the Altair and a few other companies–actually, about 24–that had done various machines, but the ’77 group included the PET, TRS-80 …

比尔：是的。曾经有Altair和其他几家公司——实际上，大约有 24 家——做过各种机器，但 77 年包括 PET、TRS-80……

Walt: Commodore? 沃尔特：Commodore？

Bill: Yeah, the Commodore PET, TRS-80 and the Apple II. The original Apple II BASIC, the Integer BASIC, we had nothing to do with. But then there was a floating-point one where–and I mostly worked with Woz on that.

比尔：是的，Commodore PET、TRS-80 和 Apple II。最初的 Apple II BASIC，整数 BASIC，我们没有参与。但后来有一个浮点版本，我主要是和沃兹一起做的。

Steve: Let me tell the story. My partner we started out with, this guy named Steve Wozniak. Brilliant, brilliant guy. He writes this BASIC that is, like, the best BASIC on the planet. It does stuff that no other BASIC’s ever done. You don’t have to run it to find your error messages. It finds them when you type it in and stuff. It’s perfect in every way, except for one thing, which is it’s just fixed-point, right? It’s not floating-point.

史蒂夫：让我讲个故事。我和一个叫史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克的家伙开始了这个项目。他是个非常聪明的家伙。他编写了一个BASIC，它是地球上最好的BASIC。它做了其他BASIC从未做过的事情。你不需要运行它来找到错误信息，它在你输入的时候就会找出错误。它在各方面都很完美，唯一的问题就是它只支持定点运算，不支持浮点运算。

So we’re getting a lot of input that people want this BASIC to be floating-point. And, like, we’re begging Woz, please, please make this floating point.

所以我们收到了很多反馈，人们希望这个 BASIC 能够支持浮点数。我们在恳求沃兹，拜托，拜托让它支持浮点数。

Walt: Who’s we? How many people are in Apple?

沃尔特：我们是谁？苹果公司有多少人？

Steve: Well, me. We’re begging Woz to make this floating-point and he just never does it. You know, and he wrote it by hand on paper. I mean, you know, he didn’t have an assembler or anything to write it with. It was all just written on paper and he’d type it in. He just never got around to making it floating-point.

史蒂夫：嗯，是我。我们在恳求沃兹把它做成浮点数，但他就是不做。你知道，他是手动在纸上写的。我是说，你知道，他没有汇编器或其他任何工具来写。所有的东西都是写在纸上的，然后他再输入进去。他就是没能抽出时间把它做成浮点数。

Kara: Why? 卡拉：为什么？

Steve: This is one of the mysteries of life. I don’t know, but he never did. So, you know, Microsoft had this very popular, really good floating-point BASIC that we ended up going to them and saying “help.”

史蒂夫：这是生活中的一个谜。我不知道，但他从来没有。所以，你知道，微软有这个非常受欢迎、非常好的浮点 BASIC，我们最终去找他们说“帮忙”。

Walt: And how much was the–I think you were telling us earlier …

沃尔特：那多少钱来着——我想你之前跟我们说过……

Bill: Oh, it was $31,000.

比尔：哦，是 31,000 美元。

Walt: That Apple paid you for the …

沃尔特：那苹果公司给你支付了……

Bill: For the floating-point BASIC. And I flew out to Apple, I spent two days there getting the cassette. The cassette tapes were the main ways that people stored things at the time, right? And, you know, that was fun.

比尔：为了浮点 BASIC。我飞到苹果公司，在那里花了两天时间获取磁带。磁带是当时人们存储东西的主要方式，对吧？你知道，那很有趣。

I think the most fun is later when we worked together.

我认为最有趣的是后来我们一起工作的时候。

Walt: What was the most fun? Tell the story about the most fun that was later.

沃尔特：最有趣的是什么？讲讲后来最有趣的故事。

Kara: Or maybe later, not the most fun.

卡拉：或者稍后再说，这不是最有趣的。

Walt: Let them talk. 沃尔特：让他们说吧。

Kara: Teasing. 卡拉：调侃。

Bill: Well, you know, Steve can probably start it better. The team that was assembled there to do the Macintosh was a very committed team. And there was an equivalent team on our side that just got totally focused on this activity. Jeff Harbers, a lot of incredible people. And we had really bet our future on the Macintosh being successful, and then, hopefully, graphics interfaces in general being successful, but first and foremost, the thing that would popularize that being the Macintosh.

比尔：嗯，你知道，史蒂夫可能能更好地开始这个话题。那时候组成的团队非常专注。我们这边也有一个等同的团队，完全投入到这个项目中。杰夫·哈伯斯，以及很多了不起的人。我们真的把未来寄托在Macintosh的成功上，然后希望图形界面总体上也能成功，但首先，Macintosh是让这种技术普及的关键。

So we were working together. The schedules were uncertain. The quality was uncertain. The price. When Steve first came up, it was going to be a lot cheaper computer than it ended up being, but that was fine.

所以我们在一起工作。时间表不确定。质量不确定。价格。当史蒂夫第一次提出时，原本会是一个便宜得多的电脑，但结果并不是这样，不过这没关系。

Kara: So you worked in both places?

卡拉：所以你在两个地方工作过？

Bill: Well, we were in Seattle and we’d fly down there.

比尔：好吧，我们在西雅图，然后我们会飞到那里。

Walt: But Microsoft, if I remember correctly from what I’ve read, wasn’t Microsoft one of the few companies that were allowed to even have a prototype of the Mac at the time?

沃尔特：但是微软，如果我没记错的话，从我读过的资料来看，微软当时不是少数几家被允许拥有 Mac 原型的公司之一吗？

Steve: Yeah. What’s interesting, what’s hard to remember now is that Microsoft wasn’t in the applications business then. They took a big bet on the Mac because this is how they got into the apps business. Lotus dominated the apps business on the PC back then.

史蒂夫：是的。有趣的是，现在很难记住的是，当时微软并不在应用程序业务中。他们对 Mac 进行了重大投资，因为这就是他们进入应用程序业务的方式。那时，Lotus 主导了 PC 上的应用程序业务。

Bill: Right. We’d done just MultiPlan, which was a hit on the Apple II, and then Mitch did an incredible job betting on the IBM PC and 1-2-3 came in and, you know, ruled that part of the business. So the question was, what was the next paradigm shift that would allow for an entry? We had Word, but WordPerfect was by far the strongest in word processing dBase database.

比尔：没错。我们刚刚做了 MultiPlan，这在 Apple II 上大获成功，然后米奇在 IBM PC 上下注做得非常出色，1-2-3 随之而来，统治了那部分业务。所以问题是，下一次范式转变是什么，能够让我们进入？我们有 Word，但 WordPerfect 在文字处理和 dBase 数据库方面无疑是最强的。

Walt: And Word was kind of a DOS text …

沃尔特：而 Word 有点像 DOS 文本……

Bill: All of these products I’m saying were DOS-based products.

比尔：我所说的所有这些产品都是基于 DOS 的产品。

Walt: Right. 沃尔特：对。

Bill: Because Windows wasn’t in the picture at the time.

比尔：因为当时没有 Windows。

Walt: Right. 沃尔特：对。

Bill: That’s more early ’90s that we get to that. So we made this bet that the paradigm shift would be graphics interface and, in particular, that the Macintosh would make that happen with 128K of memory, 22K of which was for the screen buffer, 14K was for the operating system. So it was …

比尔：这更像是 90 年代早期的事情。所以我们打了这个赌，认为范式转变将是图形界面，特别是麦金塔将通过 128K 的内存实现这一点，其中 22K 用于屏幕缓冲区，14K 用于操作系统。所以它是……

Walt: 14K? 沃尔特：14K？

Bill: Yeah. 比尔：是的。

Walt: The original Mac operating system was 14K?

沃尔特：原版 Mac 操作系统是 14K？

Bill: 14K that we had to have loaded when our software ran. So when the shell would come up, it had all the 128K.

比尔：我们必须在软件运行时加载的 14K。因此，当外壳启动时，它有全部的 128K。

Steve: The OS was bigger than 14K. It was in the 20s somewhere.

史蒂夫：操作系统的大小超过了 14K。大约在 20K 左右。

Walt: I see. 沃尔特：我明白了。

Steve: We ship these computers now with, you know, a gigabyte, 2 gigabytes of memory, and nobody remembers 128K.

史蒂夫：我们现在发货的这些电脑配备了 1GB、2GB 的内存，没人会记得 128K。

Walt: I remember that. I remember paying a lot of money for computers with 128K in those days. So the two companies worked closely on the Mac project because you were maybe not the only, but the principal or one of the principal software creators for it, is that right?

沃尔特：我记得那件事。我记得那时候为 128K 的电脑花了很多钱。所以这两家公司在 Mac 项目上紧密合作，因为你可能不是唯一的，但确实是主要或主要的软件开发者之一，对吗？

Steve: Well, Apple did the Mac itself, but we got Bill and his team involved to write these applications. We were doing a few apps ourselves. We did MacPaint, MacDraw and stuff like that, but Bill and his team did some great work.

史蒂夫：嗯，苹果自己做了 Mac，但我们让比尔和他的团队参与编写这些应用程序。我们自己也做了一些应用程序。我们做了 MacPaint、MacDraw 之类的，但比尔和他的团队做了一些很棒的工作。

Kara: Now, in terms of moving forward after you left and your company grew more and more strong, what did you think was going to happen to Apple after sort of the disasters that occurred after Steve left?

卡拉：那么，在你离开后，随着你们公司越来越强大，你认为在史蒂夫离开后，苹果会发生什么？

Bill: Well, Apple, they hung in the balance. We continued to do Macintosh software. Excel, which Steve and I introduced together in New York City, that was kind of a fun event, that went on and did very well. But then, you know, Apple just wasn’t differentiating itself well enough from the higher-volume platform.

比尔：嗯，苹果公司那时候悬而未决。我们继续开发Macintosh软件。Excel，是史蒂夫和我一起在纽约市推出的，那是个很有趣的事件，它后来表现得非常好。但随后，苹果就是没有能与那些高销量的平台区分开来。

Walt: Meaning Windows, right?

沃尔特：意思是Windows，对吧？

Bill: DOS and Windows.

比尔：DOS 和 Windows。

Walt: OK. But especially Windows in the ’90s began to take off.

沃尔特：好的。但特别是在 90 年代，Windows 开始崭露头角。

Bill: By 1995, Windows became popular. The big debate wasn’t sort of Mac versus Windows. The big debate was character mode interface versus graphics mode interface. And when the 386 came and we got more memory and the speed was adequate and some development tools came along, that paradigm bet on GUI paid off for everybody who’d gotten in early and said, you know, this is the way that’s going to go.

比尔：到 1995 年，Windows 变得流行。主要的争论不是 Mac 与 Windows 的对比，而是字符模式界面与图形模式界面的对比。当 386 问世，我们获得了更多内存，速度也足够快，并且一些开发工具也出现时，押注于图形用户界面的范式为那些早期进入并说“你知道，这就是未来发展方向”的人们带来了回报。

Walt: But Apple wasn’t able to leverage its products?

沃尔特：但是苹果没有能够利用它的产品吗？

Bill: After the 512K Mac was done, the product line just didn’t evolve as fast–Steve wasn’t there–as it needed to. And we were actually negotiating a deal to invest and make some commitments and things with Gil Amelio. No, seriously.

比尔：在 512K Mac 完成后，产品线的发展速度并没有跟上——史蒂夫不在——这需要加快。而我们实际上正在与吉尔·阿梅里奥谈判一项投资协议，并做出一些承诺和安排。不是开玩笑。

Kara: Don’t be mean to him.

卡拉：不要对他不好。

Bill: I’m sorry? 比尔：我很抱歉？

Kara: Just saying the word Gil Amelio, you can see his…

卡拉：光是提到吉尔·阿梅里奥这个名字，你就能看到他的……

Bill: So I was calling him up on the weekend and all this stuff and next thing I knew, Steve called me up and said, “Don’t worry about that negotiation with Gil Amelio. You can just talk to me now.” And I said, “Wow.”

比尔：所以我在周末给他打电话，聊了很多事情，接下来我知道的是，史蒂夫给我打电话说：“别担心和吉尔·阿梅里奥的谈判。你现在可以直接跟我谈。”我说：“哇。”

Steve: Gil was a nice guy, but he had a saying. He said, “Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom leaking water and my job is to get the ship pointed in the right direction.”

史蒂夫：吉尔是个好人，但他有一句话。他说：“苹果就像一艘底部有洞漏水的船，我的工作就是让这艘船朝着正确的方向航行。”

Walt: Meanwhile, through all this–I want to get back to the thing we saw in 1997 at Macworld there–but Windows was just going great guns. I mean, Windows 95, to whatever extent earlier versions of Windows had not had all the features, all the GUI stuff that the Mac had, and Windows 95 really was an enormous, enormous leap.

沃尔特：与此同时，在这一切中——我想回到我们在 1997 年 Macworld 上看到的事情——但 Windows 正如火如荼。我是说，Windows 95，无论早期版本的 Windows 在多大程度上没有拥有 Mac 所具备的所有功能和图形用户界面，Windows 95 确实是一个巨大的、巨大的飞跃。

Bill: Yeah. Windows 95 is when graphics interface became mainstream and when the software industry realized, wow, this is the way applications are going to be done. And it was amazing that it was ridiculed sort of in ’93, ’94, was not mainstream, and then in ’95, the debate was over. It was kind of just a commonsense thing. And it was a combination of hardware and software maturity getting to a point that people could see it.

比尔：是的。Windows 95 是图形界面成为主流的时刻，也是软件行业意识到，哇，这就是应用程序将要发展的方向。令人惊讶的是，它在 93、94 年时受到嘲笑，并不主流，而到了 95 年，争论就结束了。这简直就是常识。这是硬件和软件成熟结合到一个人们能够看到的点。

Walt: So I don’t want to go through every detail, the whole history of how you came back, but…

沃尔特：所以我不想逐一讲述每个细节，也不想讲述你是如何回来的整个历史，但……

Steve: Thank you. 史蒂夫：谢谢你。

Walt: But you in that video we all saw, you said you had decided that it was destructive to have this competition with Microsoft. Now, obviously, Apple was in a lot of trouble and I presume that there was some tactical or strategic reason for that, as well as just wanting to be a nice guy, right?

沃尔特：但是在我们都看过的视频里，你说你决定了与微软竞争是破坏性的。显然，苹果公司那时候陷入了很多麻烦，我推测这不仅仅是出于想当个好人的愿望，也有一些战术或战略上的原因，对吧？

Steve: You know, Apple was in very serious trouble. And what was really clear was that if the game was a zero-sum game where for Apple to win, Microsoft had to lose, then Apple was going to lose. But a lot of people’s heads were still in that place.

史蒂夫：你知道，苹果当时面临非常严重的麻烦。很明显，如果这个游戏是一个零和游戏，也就是说苹果要赢，微软就必须输，那么苹果就会输。但很多人的思维仍然停留在那个地方。

Kara: Why was that, from your perspective?

卡拉：从你的角度来看，为什么会这样？

Steve: Well, a lot of people’s heads were in that place at Apple and even in the customer base because, you know, Apple had invented a lot of this stuff and Microsoft was being successful and Apple wasn’t and there was jealousy and this and that. There was just a lot of reasons for it that don’t matter.

史蒂夫：嗯，很多人的心思都在苹果公司，甚至在客户群中，因为你知道，苹果发明了很多这些东西，而微软却很成功，苹果却不行，这引发了嫉妒等等。原因有很多，但这些都不重要。

But the net result of it was, was there were too many people at Apple and in the Apple ecosystem playing the game of, for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose. And it was clear that you didn’t have to play that game because Apple wasn’t going to beat Microsoft. Apple didn’t have to beat Microsoft. Apple had to remember who Apple was because they’d forgotten who Apple was.

但最终的结果是，苹果及其生态系统中有太多人在玩这样一个游戏：为了让苹果赢，微软就必须输。很明显，你不必玩这个游戏，因为苹果不会打败微软。苹果不需要打败微软。苹果需要记住自己是谁，因为他们已经忘记了自己是谁。

So to me, it was pretty essential to break that paradigm. And it was also important that, you know, Microsoft was the biggest software developer outside of Apple developing for the Mac. So it was just crazy what was happening at that time. And Apple was very weak and so I called Bill up and we tried to patch things up.

对我来说，打破那个范式是非常重要的。而且，微软是除了苹果之外为 Mac 开发的最大软件开发商，这一点也很重要。所以在那个时候发生的事情简直是疯狂的。苹果非常虚弱，于是我给比尔打了电话，我们试图修补关系。

Bill: And since that time, we’ve had a team that’s fairly dedicated to doing the Mac applications and they’ve always been treated kind of in a unique way so that they can have a pretty special relationship with Apple. And that’s worked out very well. In fact, every couple years or so, there’s been something new that we’ve been able to do on the Mac and it’s been a great business for us.

比尔：自那时以来，我们有一个相当专注于开发 Mac 应用程序的团队，他们一直以一种独特的方式对待，以便与苹果建立一种特别的关系。这一切进展得非常顺利。事实上，每隔几年，我们就能在 Mac 上推出一些新东西，这对我们来说是一个很好的业务。

Steve: And it’s actually–the relationship between the Mac development team at Microsoft and Apple is a great relationship. It’s one of our best developer relationships.

史蒂夫：实际上，微软的 Mac 开发团队与苹果之间的关系非常好。这是我们最好的开发者关系之一。

Kara: And do you look at yourselves as rivals now? Today as the landscape has evolved–and we’ll talk about the Internet landscape and everything else and other companies that have [gone] forward, but how do you look at yourselves in this landscape today?

卡拉：你们现在把自己视为竞争对手吗？今天随着环境的演变——我们将讨论互联网环境以及其他公司如何发展，但在今天的这个环境中，你们如何看待自己？

Walt:Because, I mean, you are competitors in certain ways, which is the American way, right?

沃尔特：因为，我的意思是，你们在某些方面是竞争对手，这就是美国的方式，对吧？

Kara: We watch the commercials, right?

卡拉：我们看广告，对吧？

Walt: And you get annoyed at each other from time to time.

沃尔特：你们有时会互相烦恼。

Kara: Although you know what? I have to confess, I like PC guy.

卡拉：虽然你知道吗？我得坦白，我喜欢 PC 男。

Walt: Yeah, he’s great. 沃尔特：是的，他很棒。

Kara: Yeah, I like him. The young guy, I want to pop him.

卡拉：是的，我喜欢他。那个年轻人，我想和他在一起。

Steve: The art of those commercials is not to be mean, but it’s actually for the guys to like each other. Thanks. PC guy is great. Got a big heart.

史蒂夫：这些广告的艺术在于不要显得刻薄，而是让大家喜欢彼此。谢谢。PC那个角色很好，有一颗大心脏。

Bill: His mother loves him.

比尔：他的母亲爱他。

Steve: His mother loves him.

史蒂夫：他的母亲爱他。

Kara: I’m telling you, I like PC guy totally much better.

卡拉：我告诉你，我更喜欢 PC 男孩。

Steve: Wow. 史蒂夫：哇。

Kara: I do. I don’t know why. He’s endearing. The other guy’s a jackass.

卡拉：我喜欢。我不知道为什么。他很讨人喜欢。另一个家伙是个混蛋。

Steve: PC guy’s what makes it all work, actually.

史蒂夫：实际上，PC 是让这一切运作的关键。

Walt: All right. 沃尔特：好的。

Steve: It’s worth thinking about.

史蒂夫：值得考虑一下。

Kara: So how do you look at yourselves?

卡拉：那么你们怎么看待自己？

Walt: I mean, let me just ask you, Bill. Obviously, Microsoft is a much larger company, you’re in many more markets, many more types of products than Apple is. You know, when you were running the company or when Steve Ballmer is running the company, you think obviously about Google, you think about, I don’t know, Linux in the enterprise, you think about Sony in the game area. How often is Apple on your radar screen at Microsoft in a business sense?

沃尔特：我想问你一个问题，比尔。显然，微软是一家规模更大的公司，涉及的市场和产品种类也比苹果多得多。当你在管理公司时，或者当史蒂夫·巴尔默在管理公司时，你会考虑到谷歌、企业中的Linux、游戏领域的索尼等。苹果在微软的商业视野中出现的频率有多高？

Bill: Well, they’re on the radar screen as an opportunity. In a few cases like the Zune, if you go over to that group, they think of Apple as a competitor. They love the fact that Apple’s created a gigantic market and they’re going to try and come in and contribute something to that.

比尔：嗯，他们在雷达屏幕上被视为一个机会。在一些案例中，比如 Zune，如果你去那个团队，他们把苹果视为竞争对手。他们喜欢苹果创造了一个巨大的市场，他们会尝试进入并为此做出贡献。

Steve: And we love them because they’re all customers.

史蒂夫：我们喜欢他们，因为他们都是顾客。

Walt: I have to tell you, I was actually told by J Allard, I’m serious, that because of the nature of the processor, the development platform they used to develop a lot of the software for the Xbox 360 was Macs. And he claimed that at one point, they had, like, placed the biggest order for whatever the Mac tower was at the time of anybody, and it was Microsoft.

沃尔特：我得告诉你，我实际上是被J·阿拉德告知的，认真地说，因为处理器的性质，他们用来开发许多Xbox 360软件的开发平台是Mac。他声称曾经有一段时间，他们下了一个最大订单，购买了当时最大的Mac塔机，结果是微软下的订单。

Bill: I don’t know if it was the biggest, but, yeah, we had the same processor essentially that the Mac had. This is one of those great ironies is they were switching away from that processor while the Xbox 360 was adopting it. But for good reasons, actually, in both cases. Because we’re not in a portable application and that was one of the things that that processor road map didn’t have. But yes, it shows pragmatism, but we try and do things that way. So that was the development system for the early people getting their software ready for the introduction of Xbox 360.

比尔：我不知道是否是最大的，但确实，我们使用了与Mac相同的处理器。这是一个很大的讽刺，因为他们在Switch处理器，而Xbox 360却在采用它。但实际上，在这两种情况下都是出于良好的原因。因为我们不在便携式应用领域，而那正是那个处理器路线图没有的东西。不过，这确实展示了务实的态度，我们确实尝试以这种方式做事。所以，这就是早期开发人员为Xbox 360推出做准备时使用的开发系统。

Steve: And we never ran an ad on that.

史蒂夫：我们从来没有在那上面投放广告。

Walt: I see. Admirable restraint. That’s wonderful restraint.

沃尔特：我明白了。令人钦佩的克制。真是太棒的克制了。

Steve: There were hundreds of them.

史蒂夫：他们有数百个。

Bill: Steve is so known for his restraint.

比尔：史蒂夫以他的克制而闻名。

Kara: How do you look at Microsoft from an Apple perspective? I mean, you compete in computers and…

卡拉：从苹果的角度来看，你如何看待微软？我的意思是，你们在电脑领域竞争……

Walt: I mean, you can say you don’t compete, you know, the era of destructive whatever, whatever you said in 1997, but you think–you’re consciously aware of what they’re doing with Windows, you followed Vista closely, I think.

沃尔特：我的意思是，你可以说你不竞争，你知道，破坏性的时代，无论你在 1997 年说了什么，但你认为——你是有意识地知道他们在 Windows 上做什么的，你密切关注了 Vista，我想。

Steve: You know, what’s really interesting is–and we talked about this earlier today–if you look at the reason that the iPod exists and the Apple’s in that marketplace, it’s because these really great Japanese consumer electronics companies who kind of own the portable music market, invented it and owned it, couldn’t do the appropriate software, couldn’t conceive of and implement the appropriate software. Because an iPod’s really just software. It’s software in the iPod itself, it’s software on the PC or the Mac, and it’s software in the cloud for the store. And it’s in a beautiful box, but it’s software. If you look at what a Mac is, it’s OS X, right? It’s in a beautiful box, but it’s OS X. And if you look at what an iPhone will hopefully be, it’s software.

史蒂夫：你知道，真正有趣的是——我们今天早些时候谈到过——如果你看看 iPod 存在的原因，以及苹果在那个市场上的地位，那是因为这些真正出色的日本消费电子公司，他们在便携音乐市场上占据主导地位，发明并拥有了它，却无法开发出合适的软件，无法构思和实施合适的软件。因为 iPod 实际上就是软件。它是 iPod 本身的软件，是 PC 或 Mac 上的软件，也是云端商店的软件。它装在一个漂亮的盒子里，但它就是软件。如果你看看 Mac 是什么，它是 OS X，对吧？它装在一个漂亮的盒子里，但它是 OS X。如果你看看 iPhone 希望成为的样子，它就是软件。

And so the big secret about Apple, of course–not-so-big secret maybe–is that Apple views itself as a software company and there aren’t very many software companies left, and Microsoft is a software company. And so, you know, we look at what they do and we think some of it’s really great, and we think a little bit of it’s competitive and most of it’s not. You know, we don’t have a belief that the Mac is going to take over 80% of the PC market. You know, we’re really happy when our market share goes up a point and we love that and we work real hard at it, but Apple’s fundamentally a software company and there’s not a lot of us left and Microsoft’s one of them.

所以，关于苹果的大秘密，当然——也许不是那么大的秘密——就是苹果把自己视为一家软件公司，而现在剩下的软件公司并不多，而微软就是一家软件公司。因此，你知道，我们看他们的做法，觉得其中一些真的很棒，我们认为其中一小部分是竞争性的，而大部分不是。你知道，我们并不相信 Mac 会占据 80%的 PC 市场。你知道，当我们的市场份额上升一个百分点时，我们真的很高兴，我们喜欢这样，我们为此努力工作，但苹果本质上是一家软件公司，而我们剩下的并不多，微软就是其中之一。

Walt: But you may be fundamentally a software company, but you’ve been known, at least to your customers and to most journalists as the company that kind of pays a lot of attention to integrating software and hardware. Microsoft has made some recent moves to be a little more like that, obviously not in your core biggest businesses, but with Xbox and Zune and, you know, the Surface computing device we saw today is another example. These aren’t markets that hold up in size to Windows or Office, but they’re some of your more recent initiatives. Are the companies’ approaches to this merging a little or …

沃尔特：但你们可能从根本上是一家软件公司，但至少在你们的客户和大多数记者眼中，你们被认为是一家非常关注软件与硬件整合的公司。微软最近采取了一些措施，明显地向这个方向靠拢，当然这并不是在你们最大的核心业务上，但在 Xbox 和 Zune，以及我们今天看到的 Surface 计算设备上都是另一个例子。这些市场的规模无法与 Windows 或 Office 相提并论，但它们是你们最近的一些新举措。两家公司在这种融合上的方法是有些不同还是……

Steve: Alan Kay had a great quote back in the ’70s, I think. He said, “People that love software want to build their own hardware.”

史蒂夫：我想艾伦·凯在 70 年代有一句很棒的名言。他说：“热爱软件的人想要自己构建硬件。”

Walt: Well, Bill loves software.

沃尔特：好吧，比尔喜欢软件。

Steve: Oh, I can resist that.

史蒂夫：哦，我可以抵抗这个。

Bill: The question is, are there markets where the innovation and variety you get is a net positive? The negative is that in the early stage, you really want to do the two together so you want to do prototyping and things like that, you know, really as one thing.

比尔：问题是，是否有些市场中的创新和多样性是正收益的？负面因素是，在早期阶段，你确实想把这两个结合起来，所以你想要做原型设计等事情，实际上要作为一个整体来做。

And then take the phone market. We think we’re on 140 different kinds of hardware. We think it’s beneficial to us that even if we did a few ourselves, it wouldn’t give us what we have through those partnerships.

然后看看手机市场。我们认为我们有 140 种不同类型的硬件。我们认为，即使我们自己做了一些，这也不会给我们带来通过这些合作伙伴关系所获得的好处。

当下即现实和我想要的即现实。

Likewise, if you take the robotics market, very undeveloped. We have over 140 tiny-volume robots using Microsoft software. And the creativity, building toys, security things, medical things, we love the innovation and the ecosystem that’s going to grow up–who knows when, but we’re patient–around that and we’ll have a great asset with this robotic software platform.

同样，如果你看看机器人市场，非常不发达。我们有超过 140 个使用微软软件的小型机器人。我们热爱创新和即将发展的生态系统——谁知道何时，但我们很有耐心——围绕这一点，我们将拥有这个机器人软件平台的巨大资产。

So there are things like PC, phone, and robot where the Microsoft choice is to go for the variety.

所以像个人电脑、手机和机器人这样的东西，微软的选择是追求多样性。

Apple, it’s great. For them, they do what works super well for them. And there’s a few markets like Xbox 360, Zune, and this year we have two new ones, the Surface thing and this RoundTable, which is the meeting-room thing, where we’ll actually, through subcontractors, but the P&L on the risk and all that for the hardware, the design is completely a Microsoft thing.

苹果，太棒了。对他们来说，他们做的事情非常有效。而且有一些市场，比如 Xbox 360、Zune，今年我们有两个新产品，Surface 和这个 RoundTable，这是会议室的东西，我们实际上会通过分包商来实现，但硬件的风险和所有这些的损益完全是微软的事情。

Walt: The RoundTable: Is that something you’ve announced or were you just announcing it here?

沃尔特：圆桌会议：这是你们已经宣布的事情，还是你们刚刚在这里宣布的？

Bill: We’ve shown prototypes of it. That’s the thing where it’s got the 360-degree …

比尔：我们已经展示了它的原型。那就是它具有 360 度的……

Walt: Oh, right. It’s like Cisco has something in that market and HP too, right?

沃尔特：哦，对。就像思科在那个市场上有一些东西，惠普也是，对吧？

Bill: Oh, HP has a very high-end thing that’s a tiny bit like it, but anyway.

比尔：哦，惠普有一个非常高端的东西，稍微有点像，但无论如何。

Walt: All right. Do you ever regret–was there something you might have wanted to do differently? And maybe you feel like this happened after you left Apple, something you might have done differently where you could have had a much bigger market share for the Mac?

沃尔特：好吧。你有没有后悔过——有没有什么事情你希望能做得不同？也许你觉得这发生在你离开苹果之后，有什么事情你本可以做得不同，这样你就能为 Mac 赢得更大的市场份额？

Steve: Well, before I answer that, let me make a comment on Bill’s answer there, which is, it’s very interesting, in the consumer market and the enterprise market, they’re very different spaces. And in the consumer market, at least, I think one can make a pretty strong case that outside of Windows on PCs, it’s hard to see other examples of the software and hardware being decoupled working super well yet. It might in the phone space over time. It might. But it’s not clear. It’s not clear. You can see a lot more examples of the hardware/software coupling working well.

史蒂夫：在我回答这个问题之前，让我对比尔的回答做一个评论。在消费者市场和企业市场中，它们是非常不同的领域。至少在消费者市场中，我认为可以很强烈地提出一个观点，即在 PC 上的 Windows 之外，很难看到其他软件和硬件解耦后表现非常出色的例子。也许在手机领域随着时间的推移会有所改变，但现在还不明确。你可以看到更多硬件/软件耦合效果良好的例子。

So I think this is one of the reasons we all, you know, come to work every day is because nobody knows the answers to some of these questions. And we’ll find out over the coming years and maybe both will work fine and maybe they won’t.

所以我认为这就是我们每天来工作的原因之一，因为没有人知道这些问题的答案。我们将在未来几年中找到答案，也许两者都能很好地运作，也许它们不会。

Walt: Yeah. 沃尔特：是的。

Steve: Yeah. It’s good to try both approaches. In some product categories–take music players–the solo design worked better. In the PC market, the variety of designs at this stage has a higher share.

史蒂夫：是的。尝试这两种方法是好的。在某些产品类别中——以音乐播放器为例——单一设计效果更好。在个人电脑市场，目前阶段的多样化设计占有更高的份额。

Walt: It has a higher share? It has a lot higher share.

沃尔特：它的份额更高吗？它的份额高得多。

Steve: It’s not that much different than music players the other way around.

史蒂夫：这和音乐播放器的另一种方式没什么太大区别。

Walt: Is there some moment you feel like I should have done this or Apple should have done that, and we could have had …

沃尔特：你有没有觉得我应该做这个或者苹果应该做那个的时刻，我们本可以……

Kara: You stuck to this idea of the hardware/software integration and it’s working very well right now.

卡拉：你坚持这个硬件/软件集成的想法，现在效果很好。

Steve: There’s a lot of things that happened that I’m sure I could have done better when I was at a Apple the first time and a lot of things that happened after I left that I thought were wrong turns, but it doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter and you kind of got to let go of that stuff and we are where we are. So we tend to look forward.

史蒂夫：我在第一次在苹果工作时发生了很多事情，我相信我本可以做得更好，离开后发生的很多事情我认为是错误的选择，但这无所谓。真的无所谓，你得放下这些事情，我们现在就是现在。所以我们倾向于向前看。

And, you know, one of the things I did when I got back to Apple 10 years ago was I gave the museum to Stanford and all the papers and all the old machines and kind of cleared out the cobwebs and said, let’s stop looking backwards here. It’s all about what happens tomorrow. Because you can’t look back and say, well, gosh, you know, I wish I hadn’t have gotten fired, I wish I was there, I wish this, I wish that. It doesn’t matter. And so let’s go invent tomorrow rather than worrying about what happened yesterday.

你知道，我十年前回到苹果时做的一件事就是把博物馆和所有的文件以及旧机器都交给了斯坦福大学，清理掉了陈旧的东西，告诉大家，别再往回看了。我们要关注明天会发生什么。因为你不能回头说，哎呀，我真希望我没有被解雇，我希望我当时在那儿，我希望这个，我希望那个。这些都无所谓。所以，让我们去创造明天，而不是担心昨天发生了什么。

Kara: We’re going to talk a little bit tomorrow, but let’s talk about today, the landscape of how you see the different players in the market and how you look at what’s developing now. What has surprised both of you since having been around for so long, and still very active and everything, and your companies are still critically key companies? There are many, many companies that are becoming quite powerful. How do you look at the landscape at this moment and what’s happening especially in the Internet space?

卡拉：我们明天会聊一点，但先谈谈今天，你如何看待市场上不同参与者的格局，以及你对当前发展的看法。自从你们在这个行业待了这么久，仍然非常活跃，你们的公司依然是关键公司，这让你们感到惊讶的是什么？有很多公司正在变得相当强大。你们如何看待此刻的市场格局，尤其是在互联网领域发生了什么？

Steve: I think it’s super healthy right now. I think there’s a lot of young people out there building some great companies who want to build companies, who aren’t just interested in starting something and selling it to one of the big guys, but who want to build companies. And I think there’s some real exciting companies getting built out there. Some next-generation stuff that, you know, some of us play catch-up with and, you know, some of us find ways to partner with and things like that, but there’s a lot of activity out there now, wouldn’t you say?

史蒂夫：我认为现在的情况非常健康。我觉得有很多年轻人在建立一些伟大的公司，他们想要建立公司，而不仅仅是想要启动一个项目然后卖给大公司，他们想要真正建立公司。我认为有一些非常令人兴奋的公司正在成立。有一些下一代的东西，你知道，我们中的一些人正在追赶，而我们中的一些人则在寻找合作的方式等等，但现在外面有很多活动，你不觉得吗？

Bill: Yeah, I’d say it’s a healthy period. The notion of what the new form factors look like, what natural interface can do, the ability to use the cloud, the Internet, to do part of the task in a complementary way to the local experience, there’s a lot of invention that the whole approach of start-ups, the existing companies who do research, we’ll look back at this as one of the great periods of invention.

比尔：是的，我认为这是一个健康的时期。关于新形态的概念，自然界面的功能，利用云和互联网以补充本地体验来完成部分任务的能力，初创企业和进行研究的现有公司在整个过程中有很多创新，我们将把这一时期视为伟大的发明时期之一。

Steve: I think so, too. There’s a lot of things that are risky right now, which is always a good sign, you know, and you can see through them, you can see to the other side and go, yes, this could be huge, but there’s a period of risk that, you know, nobody’s ever done it before.

史蒂夫：我也这么认为。现在有很多事情是有风险的，这总是一个好兆头，你知道的，你可以看透这些风险，看到另一面，想，没错，这可能会很大，但有一个风险期，你知道的，没人以前做过。

Kara: Do you have an example?

卡拉：你有例子吗？

Steve: I do, but I can’t say.

史蒂夫：我知道，但我不能说。

Kara: OK. 卡拉：好的。

Steve: But I can say, when you feel like that, that’s a great thing.

史蒂夫：但我可以说，当你有这样的感觉时，那是一件很棒的事情。

Kara: Right. 卡拉：对。

Steve: That’s what keeps you coming to work in the morning and it tells you there’s something exciting around the next corner.

史蒂夫：这就是让你早上愿意来工作的原因，它告诉你下一个拐角处会有令人兴奋的事情。

Walt: OK. So the two of you have certainly–you’re involved every day with the Internet, you have Internet products, you have a whole slew of stuff on the Internet, you have iTunes and “.Mac” and all of that, but on another level, you’re the guys who represent the rich client, the personal computer, the, you know, big operating system and all that. And there is a certain school of thought–and I’m sure it’s shared by some people in the room–that this is all migrating to the cloud and you’ll need a fairly light piece of hardware that won’t have to have all that investment, all the kind of stuff you guys have done throughout your careers. So as much as people might think of you as rivals, one way to think of you is the two guys …

沃尔特：好。那么你们两位无疑每天都在涉足互联网，你们有互联网产品，你们在互联网上有一系列的东西，比如 iTunes 和“.Mac”等等。但从另一个层面来看，你们代表了富客户端、个人计算机、以及所有这些大型操作系统。还有一种观点——我相信在座的一些人也可能认同——认为这一切正在向云端迁移，你们需要一块相对轻便的硬件，而不必再进行所有那些你们在职业生涯中所做的那种投资。因此，尽管人们可能认为你们是竞争对手，但可以从另一个角度来看待你们——作为两位……

Steve: We’re both dinosaurs?

史蒂夫：我们都是恐龙吗？

Walt: Huh? 沃尔特：嗯？

Steve: That we’re both dinosaurs?

史蒂夫：我们都是恐龙吗？

Walt: Dinosaurs? Yeah, whatever. I can talk about that. No, seriously …

沃尔特：恐龙？是的，随便。我可以谈谈这个。不，认真地说……

Kara: You’re betting on a system that is changing.

卡拉：你在押注一个正在变化的系统。

Walt: In five years, is the personal computer still going to be the linchpin of all this stuff?

沃尔特：五年后，个人电脑还会是这一切的关键吗？

Bill: Well, you can say that it will be predicted that it won’t be. You know, the network computer took this over about, whatever, five years ago we disappeared. Remember the single-function computer? There was somebody who said that these general purpose things are kind of a dumb idea.

比尔：嗯，你可以说有预测认为它不会这样发展。你知道，网络计算机大约在五年前取代了这一切。记得那个单功能计算机吗？曾有人说这些通用计算机有点愚蠢。

Kara: Larry Ellison. 卡拉：拉里·埃里森。

Bill: The mainstream is always under attack. The thing that people don’t realize is that you’re going to have rich local functionality, I mean, at least our bet, whereas you get things like speech and vision, as you get more natural form factors, it’s a question of using that local richness together with the richness that’s elsewhere.

比尔：主流总是受到攻击。人们没有意识到的是，你将拥有丰富的本地功能，我的意思是，至少这是我们的赌注，而当你获得语音和视觉等功能时，随着你获得更自然的形态，问题在于如何将这种本地的丰富性与其他地方的丰富性结合起来。

And as you look at the device, say, that’s connecting to the TV set or connecting in the car, there are lighter-weight hardware Internet connections, but when you come to the full screen rich, you know, edit the document, create things, you know, I think we’re nowhere near where we could be on making that stronger.

当你看着这个设备，比如说，连接到电视机或车载时，有更轻量级的硬件互联网连接，但当你需要全屏丰富的体验，比如编辑文档、创建内容时，我认为我们距离能够更强大地实现这一点还远得很。

Steve: I’ll give you a concrete example. I love Google Maps, use it on my computer, you know, in a browser. But when we were doing the iPhone, we thought, wouldn’t it be great to have maps on the iPhone? And so we called up Google and they’d done a few client apps in Java on some phones and they had an API that we worked with them a little on. And we ended up writing a client app for those APIs. They would provide the back-end service. And the app we were able to write, since we’re pretty reasonable at writing apps, blows away any Google Maps client. Just blows it away. Same set of data coming off the server, but the experience you have using it is unbelievable. It’s way better than the computer. And just in a completely different league than what they’d put on phones before.

史蒂夫：我给你一个具体的例子。我喜欢谷歌地图，在我的电脑上用浏览器使用它。但是当我们在做 iPhone 时，我们想，能在 iPhone 上有地图不是很好吗？于是我们联系了谷歌，他们在一些手机上用 Java 做过几个客户端应用，并且他们有一个 API，我们和他们稍微合作了一下。最后我们为这些 API 写了一个客户端应用。他们提供后端服务。我们能够写的应用，因为我们在写应用方面相当不错，远远超过了任何谷歌地图客户端。真的是远远超过。服务器上提供的是同一组数据，但你使用它的体验是不可思议的。它比电脑上的要好得多。而且与他们之前在手机上推出的产品完全不在一个档次。

And, you know, that client is the result of a lot of technology on the client, that client application. So when we show it to them, they’re just blown away by how good it is. And you can’t do that stuff in a browser.

而且，你知道，那种客户端是大量客户端技术的结果，那些客户端应用程序。当我们向他们展示时，他们对其出色的表现感到惊叹。而这些东西在浏览器中是做不到的。

So people are figuring out how to do more in a browser, how to get a persistent state of things when you’re disconnected from a browser, how do you actually run apps locally using, you know, apps written in those technologies so they can be pretty transparent, whether you’re connected or not.

人们正在研究如何在浏览器中做更多事情，如何在与浏览器断开连接时保持事物的持久状态，如何实际在本地运行应用程序，使用那些技术编写的应用程序，这样无论你是否连接，它们都可以非常透明。

But it’s happening fairly slowly and there’s still a lot you can do with a rich client environment. At the same time, the hardware is progressing to where you can run a rich client environment on lower and lower cost devices, on lower and lower power devices. And so there’s some pretty cool things you can do with clients.

但这一切发生得相当缓慢，您仍然可以在丰富的客户端环境中做很多事情。与此同时，硬件正在进步，您可以在成本越来越低、功耗越来越低的设备上运行丰富的客户端环境。因此，您可以在客户端上做一些非常酷的事情。

Walt: OK. So you’re saying rich clients still matter, but–maybe I misunderstood you, but your example was about a rich client that is not a personal computer as we have thought of a personal computer.

沃尔特：好的。所以你是说富客户端仍然重要，但——也许我误解了你，但你的例子是关于一个富客户端，而不是我们所认为的个人电脑。

Steve: What I’m saying is, I think the marriage of some really great client apps with some really great cloud services is incredibly powerful and right now, can be way more powerful than just having a browser on the client.

史蒂夫：我想说的是，我认为一些非常优秀的客户端应用程序与一些非常优秀的云服务的结合是非常强大的，而现在，这种结合的力量远远超过仅仅在客户端上使用浏览器。

Kara: You’re talking about a software company being a software and services company rather than a …

卡拉：你是在说一家软件公司是软件和云服务，而不是……

Steve: I’m saying the marriage of these services plus a more sophisticated client is a very powerful marriage.

史蒂夫：我说这些云服务的结合加上一个更复杂的客户端是一个非常强大的结合。

Walt: Bill? 沃尔特：比尔？

Bill: Yeah. Architecturally, the question is, do you run just in the cloud and all you have downloaded locally is the browser? And that is the same question for the phone as it is for the full-screen device. There will always be different screen sizes because these are, you know, the 5-inch screen does not really compete with the 20-inch screen, does not compete with the big living room screen. Those are things that there will be some type of computing behind all of those things, all connected to the Internet, but the idea that locally you have the responsiveness of immediate interaction without the latency or bandwidth limitations that you get if you try and do it all behind, that’s what leads to the right balance.

比尔：是的。从建筑的角度来看，问题是，你是否只在云端运行，而本地下载的只是浏览器？这个问题对于手机和全屏设备是一样的。屏幕尺寸总是会有所不同，因为 5 英寸的屏幕与 20 英寸的屏幕并不真正竞争，20 英寸的屏幕也与大客厅的屏幕不竞争。这些都是需要某种计算支持的事物，所有这些都连接到互联网，但本地拥有即时交互的响应能力，而没有延迟或带宽限制，这就是如果你试图在后台完成所有事情时所面临的挑战，这就是达到正确平衡的关键。

Kara: What does that device look like in five years? What would be your principal device? Is there one or…

卡拉：那种设备五年后会是什么样子？你主要的设备会是什么？有没有一个或者……

Walt: I could be wrong, I think you carry a tablet with you, right?

沃尔特：我可能错了，我想你随身带着一台平板，对吧？

Bill: Right. 比尔：对。

Walt: Which has not necessarily stormed the world yet.

沃尔特：这并不一定已经席卷了整个世界。

Bill: Yeah. This is like Windows 1992, I think. That is, I’m unrepentant on my belief.

比尔：是的。这就像 1992 年的 Windows，我想。也就是说，我对我的信念毫无悔意。

Walt: OK. But to go back to Kara’s point, what would you each imagine that you would carry as your principal, let’s say, thing to do the Web and…

沃尔特：好的。但是回到卡拉的观点，你们各自想象一下，作为你们的主要任务，你们会携带什么来上网……

Kara: I mean, Jeff Hawkins showed a very lightweight device.

卡拉：我的意思是，杰夫·霍金斯展示了一个非常轻便的设备。

Walt: Yeah. I don’t know if you guys saw, but Jeff Hawkins showed a Linux-based, very small–I think he called it a companion to a smart phone today.

沃尔特：是的。我不知道你们是否看到了，但杰夫·霍金斯今天展示了一款基于 Linux 的非常小的设备——我想他称之为智能手机的伴侣。

Kara: A phone companion, which sounded a little naughty.

卡拉：一个听起来有点调皮的手机伴侣。

Walt: It doesn’t matter, you weren’t there, but what would you think you each would be–I assume you carry a tablet PC. I don’t know what brand it is. Maybe you change them up, I don’t know. You obviously carry a MacBook Pro, I would guess, or a MacBook.

沃尔特：没关系，你不在场，但你们各自会是什么——我假设你们带着平板电脑。我不知道是什么品牌。也许你们会换不同的，我不知道。你们显然带着一台 MacBook Pro，我猜，或者是一台 MacBook。

Steve: Yeah. Well, and an iPhone.

史蒂夫：是的，还有一部 iPhone。

Walt: And an iPhone? 沃尔特：那一部 iPhone 呢？

Kara: You have one? 卡拉：你有一个吗？

Steve: I do. 史蒂夫：我愿意。

Kara: Right here? 卡拉：就在这里吗？

Steve: Yes. 史蒂夫：是的。

Walt: Well, he has one. He took it out before. Really.

沃尔特：嗯，他有一个。他之前拿出来过。真的。

Kara: Sorry. 卡拉：对不起。

Walt: He flashed his iPhone earlier today.

沃尔特：他今天早些时候展示了他的 iPhone。

Kara: Anyway, go ahead. So what is your device? What’s the device that we should be carrying?

卡拉：无论如何，继续。那么你的设备是什么？我们应该携带什么设备？

Walt: What’s your device in five years that you rely on the most?

沃尔特：你在五年后最依赖的设备是什么？

Bill: I don’t think you’ll have one device. I think you’ll have a full-screen device that you can carry around and you’ll do dramatically more reading off of that.

比尔：我认为你不会只有一台设备。我认为你会有一台全屏设备，可以随身携带，你会在上面阅读更多内容。

Kara: Light. 卡拉：光。

Bill: Yeah. I mean, I believe in the tablet form factor. I think you’ll have voice. I think you’ll have ink. You’ll have some way of having a hardware keyboard and some settings for that. And then you’ll have the device that fits in your pocket, which the whole notion of how much function should you combine in there, you know, there’s navigation computers, there’s media, there’s phone. Technology is letting us put more things in there, but then again, you really want to tune it so people know what they expect. So there’s quite a bit of experimentation in that pocket-size device. But I think those are natural form factors and that we’ll have the evolution of the portable machine. And the evolution of the phone will both be extremely high volume, complementary–that is, if you own one, you’re more likely to own the other.

比尔：是的。我是说，我相信平板电脑的形态。我认为你会有语音功能。我认为你会有手写功能。你会有某种硬件键盘和一些设置。然后你会有一个可以放进你口袋里的设备，关于在里面结合多少功能的整个概念，你知道，有导航电脑，有媒体，有电话。技术让我们可以在里面放更多的东西，但你真的想要调整它，让人们知道他们可以期待什么。所以在这个口袋大小的设备中有相当多的实验。但我认为这些是自然的形态，我们将会看到便携机器的演变。手机的演变也将是极高的销量，互为补充——也就是说，如果你拥有一个，你更有可能拥有另一个。

Kara: And then at home, you’d have a setup that they all plug into?

卡拉：然后在家里，你会有一个他们都可以插入的设备吗？

Bill: Well, home, you’ll have your living room, which is your 10-foot experience, and that’s connected up to the Internet and there you’ll have gaming and entertainment and there’s a lot of experimentation in terms of what content looks like in that world. And then in your den, you’ll have something a lot like you have at your desk at work. You know, the view is that every horizontal and vertical surface will have a projector so you can put information, you know, your desk can be a surface that you can sit and manipulate things.

比尔：好吧，家里的话，你会有一个客厅，这是你的10英尺体验区域，它连接到互联网，你可以在这里进行游戏和娱乐，而且在这个世界中内容的呈现有很多实验。然后在你的书房，你会有一些很像你在工作桌上使用的设备。你知道，未来的设想是每个水平和垂直的表面都会有一个投影仪，这样你可以在这些表面上放置信息，比如你的桌子可以变成一个可以坐下来操作的表面。

Walt: Can I please have a room in my house that doesn’t have a screen and a projector in it?

沃尔特：我可以在我的房子里有一个没有屏幕和投影仪的房间吗？

Bill: You bet. 比尔：当然。

Walt: Thanks. 沃尔特：谢谢。

Bill: The bathroom. 比尔：洗手间。

Walt: Well… 沃尔特：好吧……

Kara: That’s the perfect place for it, actually.

卡拉：其实那是个完美的地方。

Walt: So what’s your five-year outlook at the devices you’ll carry?

沃尔特：那么你对未来五年将携带的设备有什么展望？

Steve: You know, it’s interesting. The PC has proved to be very resilient because, as Bill said earlier, I mean, the death of the PC has been predicted every few years.

史蒂夫：你知道，这很有趣。个人电脑证明了它的韧性，因为正如比尔之前所说的，个人电脑的死亡每隔几年就会被预测一次。

Walt: And here when you’re saying PC, you mean personal computer in general, not just Windows PCs?

沃尔特：你在这里说 PC 时，是指个人电脑的一般概念，而不仅仅是 Windows 电脑吗？

Steve: I mean, personal computer in general.

史蒂夫：我的意思是，个人电脑一般来说。

Walt: Yeah, OK. 沃尔特：好的，没问题。

Steve: And, you know, there was the age of productivity, if you will, you know, the spreadsheets and word processors and that kind of got the whole industry moving. And it kind of plateaued for a while and was getting a little stale and then the Internet came along and everybody needed more powerful computers to get on the Internet, browsers came along, and it was this whole Internet age that came along, access to the Internet. And then some number of years ago, you could start to see that the PC that was taken for granted, things had kind of plateaued a little bit, innovation-wise, at least. And then I think this whole notion of the PC–we called it the digital hub, but you can call it anything you want, sort of the multimedia center of the house, started to take off with digital cameras and digital camcorders and sharing things over the Internet and kind of needing a repository for all that stuff and it was reborn again as sort of the hub of your digital life.

史蒂夫：你知道，有一个生产力的时代，如果你愿意的话，电子表格和文字处理器让整个行业开始运转。然后它有点停滞了一段时间，变得有些乏味，接着互联网出现了，大家都需要更强大的电脑来上网，浏览器也随之而来，这整个互联网时代随之而来，接入互联网。然后在几年前，你可以开始看到，个人电脑被视为理所当然的东西，创新方面有点停滞。然后我认为这个个人电脑的概念——我们称之为数字中心，但你可以称它为任何你想要的东西，某种意义上是家庭的多媒体中心，开始随着数码相机和数码摄像机的出现而起飞，并且通过互联网分享东西，逐渐需要一个存储所有这些东西的地方，它再次被重新定义为你数字生活的中心。

And you can sort of see that there’s something starting again. It’s not clear exactly what it is, but it will be the PC maybe used a little more tightly coupled with some back-end Internet services and some things like that. And, of course, PCs are going mobile in an ever greater degree.

你可以看到一些事情又开始了。具体是什么还不清楚，但可能是个人电脑与一些后端互联网服务等更加紧密结合使用。当然，个人电脑正在以越来越大的程度走向移动化。

So I think the PC is going to continue. This general purpose device is going to continue to be with us and morph with us, whether it’s a tablet or a notebook or, you know, a big curved desktop that you have at your house or whatever it might be. So I think that’ll be something that most people have, at least in this society. In others, maybe not, but certainly in this one.

所以我认为个人电脑将会继续存在。这种通用设备将会与我们一起发展，无论是平板电脑、笔记本电脑，还是你家里的大曲面台式机，或者其他任何形式。因此，我认为这将是大多数人拥有的东西，至少在这个社会中。在其他社会中可能不是，但在这个社会中肯定是。

But then there’s an explosion that’s starting to happen in what you call post-PC devices, right? You can call the iPod one of them. There’s a lot of things that are not…

但随后在你所称的后 PC 设备中开始发生一种爆炸，对吧？你可以把 iPod 算作其中之一。有很多东西并不是……

Walt: You can get into trouble for using that term. I want you to know that.

沃尔特：使用那个术语可能会惹上麻烦。我想让你知道这一点。

Steve: What? 史蒂夫：什么？

Walt: I’m kidding. Post-PC devices.

沃尔特：我在开玩笑。后 PC 设备。

Steve: Why? 史蒂夫：为什么？

Walt: People write letters to the editor, they complain about it. Anyway, go ahead.

沃尔特：人们给编辑写信，抱怨这个。无论如何，继续吧。

Steve: Okay. Well, anyway, I think there’s just a category of devices that aren’t as general purpose, that are really more focused on specific functions, whether they’re phones or iPods or Zunes or what have you. And I think that category of devices is going to continue to be very innovative and we’re going to see lots of them.

史蒂夫：好的。无论如何，我认为有一类设备并不是那么通用，而是更专注于特定功能，无论是手机、iPod、Zune 还是其他什么。我认为这一类设备将继续保持非常创新，我们会看到很多这样的设备。

Kara: Give me an example of what that would be.

卡拉：给我一个例子说明那会是什么。

Steve: Well, an iPod as a post-PC…

史蒂夫：好吧，iPod 作为一种后 PC 设备……

Kara: Well, yeah. 卡拉：嗯，是的。

Steve: A phone as a post-PC device.

史蒂夫：一部作为后 PC 设备的手机。

Walt: Is the iPhone and some of these other smart phones–and I know you believe that the iPhone is much better than these other smart phones at the moment, but are these things–aren’t they really just computers in a different form factor? I mean, when we use the word phone, it sounds like…

沃尔特：iPhone 和其他一些智能手机——我知道你认为 iPhone 目前比其他智能手机要好得多，但这些东西——难道它们不只是以不同形态存在的计算机吗？我的意思是，当我们使用“电话”这个词时，听起来像……

Steve: We’re getting to the point where everything’s a computer in a different form factor. So what, right? So what if it’s built with a computer inside it? It doesn’t matter. It’s, what is it? How do you use it? You know, how does the consumer approach it? And so who cares what’s inside it anymore?

史蒂夫：我们正逐渐走向一个所有东西都是以不同形态存在的计算机的时代。那么，这有什么关系呢？如果里面有一台计算机又怎么样？这并不重要。它是什么？你如何使用它？你知道，消费者是如何看待它的？那么，里面有什么又有什么关系呢？

Walt: So what are the core functions of the device formerly known as the cellphone, whatever we want to call it? The pocket device. What would you say the core functions, like, five years out, what are the core functions of that pocket device?

沃尔特：那么，曾被称为手机的设备的核心功能是什么，不管我们想怎么称呼它？口袋设备。你会说，五年后，这个口袋设备的核心功能是什么？

Bill: How quickly all these things that have been somewhat specialized, the navigation device, the digital wallet, the phone, the camera, the video camera, how quickly those all come together, it’s hard to chart out. But eventually, you’ll be able to pick something that has the capability to do every one of those things.

比尔：这些曾经有些专业化的东西，比如导航设备、数字钱包、手机、相机、摄像机，它们是多么迅速地融合在一起，真是难以描绘。但最终，你将能够选择一种具备所有这些功能的设备。

And yet, given the small size, you still won’t want to edit your homework or edit a movie on the screen of that size. And so you’ll have something else that lets you do the reading and editing and those things. Now, if we could ever get a screen that would just roll out like a scroll, you know, then you might be able to have the device that did everything.

然而，考虑到尺寸较小，你仍然不想在如此大小的屏幕上编辑作业或剪辑电影。因此，你会有其他设备来进行阅读、编辑等。如果我们能有一个像卷轴一样展开的屏幕，你知道，那样你可能就能拥有一个可以做所有事情的设备。

Walt: You know, in the very first D conference, we had these guys from E Ink here.

沃尔特：你知道，在第一次 D 会议上，我们请到了 E Ink 的这些人。

Kara: Yeah. 卡拉：是的。

Walt: I’m sure you’ve both talked to them. They were talking about that. That was five years ago. It’s always five years out. So do you…

沃尔特：我相信你们俩都和他们谈过。他们在谈论那个。那是五年前的事。总是五年之后。所以你们…

Bill: Yeah. There’s some advances in projection technology that are more likely to be delivered, I think, than the flexible material guys, but it’s not even on the horizon, no matter which of the two approaches are pursued.

比尔：是的。我认为投影技术有一些更有可能实现的进展，而不是柔性材料的技术，但无论追求哪种方法，这都还不在视野之内。

Kara: And any kind of quality.

卡拉：以及任何种类的质量。

Bill: We have some Microsoft research people who work on [that] and there’s a lot of investment, but it’s at least in the five-year time frame.

比尔：我们有一些微软的研究人员在做[这个]，而且投入了很多资金，但至少是在五年的时间框架内。

Walt: You, five years from now, what’s going to be on that pocket device?

沃尔特：你，五年后，那个口袋设备上会有什么？

Steve: I don’t know. And the reason I don’t know is because I wouldn’t have thought that there would have been maps on it five years ago, but something comes along, gets really popular, people love it, get used to it, you want it on there.

史蒂夫：我不知道。我不知道的原因是，因为我五年前不会想到会有地图，但有些东西出现了，变得非常受欢迎，人们喜欢它，习惯了，你想把它放上去。

So people are inventing things constantly and I think the art of it is balancing what’s on there and what’s not on there, is the editing function. And clearly, most things you carry with you are communications devices. You want to do some entertainment with them as well, but they’re primarily communications devices and that’s what they’re going to be.

人们不断地发明东西，我认为其中的艺术在于平衡那些存在的和不存在的东西，这就是编辑功能。显然，你随身携带的大多数东西都是通讯设备。你也想用它们来娱乐，但它们主要是通讯设备，这就是它们的本质。

Kara: Outside the computing area, what are the exciting areas in the Internet space at all that you’re looking at that’s interesting to each of your companies and in general for you? Any social networking, any kind of the Wikis, those kind of things, things we’ve talked about in the past couple–today, essentially?

卡拉：在计算领域之外，你们各自公司和你们个人感兴趣的互联网空间中，还有哪些令人兴奋的领域？有没有社交网络、维基之类的东西，这些都是我们在过去几天讨论过的事情？

Steve: You know, we’re working on some things that I can’t talk about, but…

史蒂夫：你知道，我们正在做一些我不能谈论的事情，但是……

Kara: Again. 卡拉：再来一次。

Steve: Again, yeah. 史蒂夫：又来了，是的。

Kara: It’s very beautiful, I think.

卡拉：我觉得这非常美。

Steve: There used to be a saying, isn’t it at Apple …

史蒂夫：以前有一句话，不是在苹果公司吗……

Walt: Going to blow us away, though, when you can talk about it.

沃尔特：不过，当你能谈论它时，会让我们大吃一惊。

Kara: Blow us away, wow, it’s great.

卡拉：让我们惊艳吧，哇，太棒了。

Steve: There used to be a saying at Apple, isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top. So the…

史蒂夫：在苹果公司曾经有一句话，真有趣，从上面漏水的船。所以……

Kara: That’s kind of like a sweater without sleeves is a vest. I don’t get that.

卡拉：这有点像没有袖子的毛衣是背心。我不明白。

Steve: That was what they used to say about me when I was in my 20s.

史蒂夫：那是他们在我二十多岁时常常对我说的。

Walt: OK. 沃尔特：好的。

Steve: There’s a zillion interesting things going on on the Internet. The most interesting things to me are these incredible new services that people are bringing up and…

史蒂夫：互联网上有无数有趣的事情。对我来说，最有趣的是人们推出的这些令人难以置信的新服务，以及……

Kara: Surrounding entertainment or…

卡拉：周围的娱乐或……

Steve: There’s a lot of them surrounding entertainment, but there’s a lot of them that have to do with just sort of figuring how to navigate through life a little more efficiently. And I think, you know, it’s really great when you show somebody something and you don’t have to convince them they have a problem this solves. They know they have a problem, you can show them something, they go, oh, my God, I need this. And I think you’re going to see a lot of things like that happen over the next year or two.

史蒂夫：围绕娱乐有很多这样的东西，但也有很多与如何更有效地应对生活有关的东西。我认为，当你向某人展示某样东西时，不需要说服他们这是解决他们问题的方案，那真是太好了。他们知道自己有问题，你可以向他们展示某样东西，他们会说，哦，我的天，我需要这个。我认为在接下来的一两年里，你会看到很多这样的事情发生。

Walt: You obviously have a very large Internet business with iTunes and you sell a lot of stuff in the Apple Store, but, you know, you were early with this idea that when you bought a computer from Apple, you had this kind of Internet service back end, and it was called “.Mac”. And I think a lot of people feel you haven’t developed it very much.

沃尔特：显然，你在互联网业务方面非常庞大，有 iTunes，并且在苹果商店销售很多商品，但你知道，你在这个想法上走得很早，当你从苹果购买电脑时，你有这种互联网服务后端，叫做“.Mac”。我认为很多人觉得你没有很好地发展它。

Steve: I couldn’t agree with you more, and we’ll make up for lost time in the near future.

史蒂夫：我完全同意你的看法，我们将在不久的将来弥补失去的时间。

Walt: And in your case, you obviously have huge things like Hotmail, for instance, which is, I guess–and Windows Messenger, which are both widely used and I don’t even know how many users.

沃尔特：在你的情况下，你显然有像 Hotmail 这样的大项目，我想——还有 Windows Messenger，这两者都被广泛使用，我甚至不知道有多少用户。

Kara: A gazillion. 卡拉：无数。

Walt: Huge numbers. But on the other hand, as Steve Ballmer was talking about today, you know, other people have much stronger positions in things like search and other parts of the Internet. So are you guys, because you are the personal computer companies that are, you know, best associated with that, not as nimble as some of these competitors at this point? Do you worry about not being as nimble, both of you? I mean, obviously, Microsoft’s a much bigger company, but you’re a big company, Steve, Apple is. Do you worry about not being as nimble as somebody sitting out there with, you know, the kind of ten employees that you guys had in 1977?

沃尔特：数字庞大。但另一方面，正如史蒂夫·巴尔默今天所说，其他人在搜索和互联网的其他部分拥有更强的地位。那么你们呢，因为你们是与个人电脑最相关的公司，现在是否不如这些竞争对手灵活？你们两个都担心不够灵活吗？显然，微软是一家更大的公司，但你们也是大公司，史蒂夫，苹果也是。你们是否担心不如那些在 1977 年只有十名员工的公司灵活？

Bill: Well, there’s always going to be great new things that come out of other companies, and you want to be in a position to benefit from those, to have those inventions drive demand for Windows and personal computers and then some of those upstream things you want to participate in. I hope Steve mentioned we are going to participate in search, hopefully to a higher degree in the future than at present.

比尔：嗯，总会有其他公司推出伟大的新产品，而你希望能够从中受益，让这些发明推动对 Windows 和个人电脑的需求，然后你希望参与一些上游的事情。我希望史蒂夫提到我们将参与搜索，希望未来的参与程度能比现在更高。

Walt: He did mention that, yeah.

沃尔特：他确实提到过这一点，是的。

Bill: So we’ll see what we can do there. A lot of the applications are more specialized so they’re not areas we’ll go into. You know, take what can happen with education now that video is mainstream and all these tools that let you do rich interactions are very mainstream. I’m very excited about that. You know, the idea of empowerment goes back to the very beginning of our industry and some of those dreams that this would be used by students or that teachers could get better and learn from each other in these new ways, we’re just at the threshold where some of those things can happen. And, yes, our companies can contribute to that, but as a whole, it’s the ecosystem jumping on and building on each other where you can finally say finally technology did something for education.

比尔：所以我们看看能做些什么。很多应用程序更专业，所以它们不是我们会进入的领域。你知道，教育现在已经成为主流，视频和所有这些让你进行丰富互动的工具也非常主流。我对此感到非常兴奋。你知道，赋权的理念可以追溯到我们行业的最初，一些梦想是希望学生能够使用这些工具，或者教师能够在这些新方式中相互学习和提高，我们正处于一些事情可以发生的门槛上。是的，我们的公司可以为此做出贡献，但总体而言，是生态系统相互合作和构建，最终你可以说，技术终于为教育做了一些事情。

Steve: See, I look at this a little bit differently, which is, we’re not trying to do a lot of this stuff because it’s not what we do. We don’t think one company can do everything. So you’ve got to partner with people that are really good at stuff. Like, we’re not, I mean, maybe Microsoft is great at search. We’re not. We’re not trying to be great at search so we partner with people that are great at search. And we don’t know how to do maps on the back end. We know how to do the best maps client in the world, but we don’t know how to do the back end so we partner with people that know how to do the back end. And what we want to do is be that consumer’s device and that consumer’s experience wrapped around all this information and things we can deliver to them in a wonderful user interface, in a coherent product.

史蒂夫：你看，我对这件事的看法有点不同，我们并不是想做很多这些事情，因为这不是我们的专长。我们认为没有一家公司可以做所有事情。因此，你必须与那些在某些领域非常优秀的人合作。比如，我们并不是说，微软在搜索方面很出色。我们并不是。我们并不想在搜索方面做到出色，所以我们与那些在搜索方面很优秀的人合作。我们也不知道如何处理后端的地图。我们知道如何做出世界上最好的地图客户端，但我们不知道如何处理后端，所以我们与那些知道如何处理后端的人合作。我们想要做的是成为消费者的设备和消费者的体验，围绕着我们可以以出色的用户界面和连贯的产品交付给他们的所有信息和事物。

And so in some cases, you know, we have to do more work than others. You know, in the case of iTunes, there wasn’t a music delivery service that was any good and we had to do one, so we’ll do one. But in other cases, there’s companies doing a way better job because we’re not as good at this stuff as other people are and we’d love to partner with them and so, you know, we selectively do that. And I think it’s really hard for one company to do everything. Life’s complex.

因此在某些情况下，我们需要做的工作比其他情况更多。你知道，在 iTunes 的情况下，没有任何好的音乐传输服务，我们不得不自己做一个，所以我们会做一个。但在其他情况下，有些公司做得要好得多，因为我们在这方面不如其他人，我们很乐意与他们合作，所以你知道，我们会有选择地这样做。我认为一个公司要做所有事情真的很难。生活是复杂的。

Kara: Let’s talk about entertainment. Entertainment’s important to both your companies. For yours with music right now and as you get into Apple TV. Microsoft has been within the Hollywood era. Where do you see that going in the era of YouTube? We’ve had a couple of network people here talking about changes that are happening in Hollywood and everything else. What is happening now to entertainment delivery and where do you all play? Because you’ll be the delivery mechanism in one way or the other for most people.

卡拉：让我们谈谈娱乐。娱乐对你们两家公司都很重要。对于你们来说，现在涉及到音乐，并且你们也在进入 Apple TV 领域。微软则涉足好莱坞。你们如何看待在 YouTube 时代的未来？我们曾有几位网络人士来谈论好莱坞及其他领域正在发生的变化。现在娱乐交付发生了什么变化，你们各自扮演了什么角色？因为你们将成为大多数人的交付机制，无论是以什么方式。

Bill: Well, the big milestone is where the delivery platform is the Internet and so you bring the richness and the interactivity. I think you can get a little bit of a glimpse of the future of TV more from looking at community-type things like Xbox Live, where people are talking to each other, finding friends, you know, watching things together, talking about those things.

比尔：嗯，重要的里程碑是交付平台是互联网，因此你带来了丰富性和互动性。我认为，从像 Xbox Live 这样的社区类型的事物中，你可以稍微一窥未来电视的样子，在那里人们彼此交谈，寻找朋友，一起观看东西，讨论这些事情。

As you map that onto genres like educational shows or sports shows or watching the Olympics, the elections, that ability to navigate becomes very, very powerful. And we’re not in entertainment. Yes, we do Halo, which is this big video game, but by and large, we’re a platform and so it’s the tough software things, whether it’s the speech or the ink or the deep graphics, that’s where things that take 10 years to get done, the IPTV stuff, the foundation there, you know, took ten years to get it done. Now it’s finally coming to fruition and we have people like AT&T betting their company on putting that together.

当你将这些映射到教育节目、体育节目或观看奥运会、选举等类型时，这种导航能力变得非常强大。而我们并不在娱乐领域。是的，我们做《光环》，这是一个大型视频游戏，但总体而言，我们是一个平台，因此是那些困难的软件问题，无论是语音、墨水还是深度图形，这些都是需要十年才能完成的事情，IPTV 的基础工作，你知道，花了十年才完成。现在它终于开始实现，我们有像 AT&T 这样的人在押注他们的公司来整合这些。

So we’re just at the start of having a scale-entertainment delivery vehicle, both through PCs, unfortunately not connected up to the TV set in most cases, but that’s a point of innovation, and now things like IPTV and Xbox that are connected up in the living room.

所以我们刚刚开始拥有一个规模化的娱乐传输工具，虽然在大多数情况下，个人电脑并没有连接到电视上，但这是一个创新的点，现在像 IPTV 和 Xbox 这样的设备已经连接到客厅里。

Walt: Bill, you weren’t here, but Steve showed a new function of Apple TV that brings YouTube directly to the TV. Is there going to be more of that from you? Do you see yourself the way Bill says, as an enabler of entertainment or, I mean, putting aside your Disney role, but your Apple role?

沃尔特：比尔，你不在这里，但史蒂夫展示了 Apple TV 的新功能，可以直接将 YouTube 带到电视上。你们会有更多这样的功能吗？你是否像比尔所说的那样，把自己视为娱乐的推动者，或者说，撇开你在迪士尼的角色，但谈谈你在苹果的角色？

Steve: I mean, I think people want to enjoy their entertainment when they want it and how they want it, on the device that they want it on. So ultimately, that’s going to drive the entertainment companies into all sorts of different business models. And that’s a good thing. I mean, if you’re a content company, that’s a great thing. More people wanting to, you know, enjoy your content more often in more different ways, that’s why you’re in business, but the transitions are hard sometimes.

史蒂夫：我的意思是，我认为人们希望在他们想要的时间和方式上享受娱乐，使用他们想要的设备。因此，最终这将推动娱乐公司采用各种不同的商业模式。这是件好事。我的意思是，如果你是一家内容公司，那真是太好了。更多的人希望以更多不同的方式更频繁地享受你的内容，这就是你做生意的原因，但转型有时是困难的。

And, you know, the music industry, it turned out that the Internet got fast enough to download songs pretty easily. There was no legal alternative and maybe they made some bad choices in how they reacted to that, but, you know, they’re still trying to make the transition to a very different way of doing business, or ways of doing business while they’re under attack from piracy. And we can all highlight some of the mistakes that have been made, but, you know, still, it’s a tough job.

而且，你知道，音乐产业，结果发现互联网变得足够快，可以很容易地下载歌曲。没有合法的替代方案，也许他们在应对这一点时做出了一些错误的选择，但你知道，他们仍在努力向一种非常不同的商业方式转型，或者在受到盗版攻击的同时寻找商业方式。我们都可以指出一些犯过的错误，但你知道，这仍然是一项艰巨的工作。

And Hollywood, I think, you know, has watched what’s happened in music, learned some things to do, some things not to do, but, you know, they’re still trying to map this out. How do they make some of these transitions, some new business models, different platforms, allowing their customers way more freedom on when they want to watch stuff and how they want to watch it. And I think there’s a tremendous amount of experimentation and thought going on that’s going to be good. It’s going to be really good if you’re a content owner.

好莱坞，我认为，你知道，已经观察到了音乐领域发生的事情，学到了一些该做的事情和不该做的事情，但你知道，他们仍在努力规划这一切。他们如何进行一些转型，创造一些新的商业模式，使用不同的平台，让客户在观看内容的时间和方式上拥有更多的自由。我认为，正在进行大量的实验和思考，这将是好的。如果你是内容拥有者，这将是非常好的。

Walt: Can I ask about the user interface of the personal computer for a minute? Vista has just come out, which is your best version of Windows you’ve done, has some UI improvements in it. You’re about to do yet another version of the Mac OS called Leopard in the fall, which, from what you’ve shown publicly at least so far, has some improvements. But fundamentally, these are still the kind of file icon, folder icon, drop-down menu. I know I’m minimizing. There’s a lot of other things. There’s gadgets and widgets and all kinds of other cool things in there now, but, you know, you can see that it’s still all built on what you started with, with what Xerox did research on.

沃尔特：我可以问一下个人电脑的用户界面吗？Vista 刚刚发布，这是你们做过的最佳版本的 Windows，里面有一些用户界面的改进。你们即将在秋季推出另一个版本的 Mac OS，叫做 Leopard，从你们目前公开展示的内容来看，确实有一些改进。但从根本上说，这些仍然是那种文件图标、文件夹图标和下拉菜单。我知道我在简化问题。还有很多其他的东西。现在里面有小工具和部件以及各种其他很酷的东西，但你知道的，你可以看到这一切仍然是建立在你们最初的基础上，基于施乐的研究。

In the offing in the next four or five years, is it possible there’s a new paradigm for organizing the user interface of the personal computer? Let’s leave cellphones and things out for a minute, but just the personal computer. Bill?

在接下来的四五年里，是否有可能出现一种新的个人电脑用户界面组织范式？我们暂时不谈手机等设备，只讨论个人电脑。比尔？

Bill: One of the things that’s been anticipated for a long time is when 3D comes into that interface. And there was a lot of experimentation, sites on the Internet where you’d kind of walk around and meet people, but in fact, the richness, the speed, it just didn’t sustain itself. Now we’re starting to see with some of the mapping stuff, a few of the sites, that the quality of that graphics, the tools and things, are getting to the point where 3D can really come in. So I’d definitely say that when you go to a store, bookstore, you’ll be able to see the books lined up, you know, the way you might be interested in or lined up the way they are in the real store.

比尔：人们期待已久的事情之一就是 3D 何时会进入那个界面。曾经有很多实验，互联网上有一些网站，你可以在上面走动并与人见面，但实际上，那种丰富性和速度并没有持续下去。现在，我们开始看到一些地图相关的东西，几个网站的图形质量、工具等，正在达到 3D 真正可以进入的水平。所以我肯定会说，当你去书店时，你将能够看到书籍排成一排，知道你可能感兴趣的方式，或者像在真实书店中那样排成一排。

So 3D is a way of organizing things, particularly as we’re getting much more media information on the computer, a lot more choices, a lot more navigation than we’ve ever had before. And we can take that into this communications world where the PC is playing a much more central role, kind of taking over what was the PBX, sort of one of the last mainframes in the business environment. That will be a big change that will come to it. And as we get natural input, that will cause a change.

所以 3D 是一种组织事物的方式，特别是随着我们在计算机上获取越来越多的媒体信息，选择更多，导航比以往任何时候都要多。我们可以将其带入这个通信世界，在这里，个人电脑扮演着更加中心的角色，逐渐取代了 PBX，成为商业环境中最后一个大型机之一。这将是一个重大的变化。而随着我们获得自然输入，这也将引发变化。

Walt: And what about this multi-touch stuff? It’s really interesting. Obviously, Steve showed some of it on the iPhone when he introduced the iPhone. Steve Ballmer today showed a bunch of it with the Surface computing device. It happens, although it’s not part of our program, that HP, which is a sponsor of this conference, has a multi-touch sort of display over here out in the foyer. Will this make its way into…

沃尔特：那这个多点触控的东西呢？真的很有趣。显然，史蒂夫在介绍 iPhone 时展示了一些。今天，史蒂夫·巴尔默在 Surface 计算设备上展示了很多。虽然这不是我们项目的一部分，但恰好惠普作为本次会议的赞助商，在前厅有一个多点触控的显示器。这会进入……

Kara: Sort of the Minority Report, this kind of thing.

卡拉：有点像《少数派报告》，这种事情。

Walt: Yeah. Will this make its way into–maybe you call it direct manipulation of objects with your hands and your fingers. Will this make its way into mainstream, let’s say, laptop computers as a new UI or an additional part of the UI or is that just a thing for specialized devices?

沃尔特：是的。这会不会进入——也许你称之为用手和手指直接操控物体。这会不会成为主流，比如说，笔记本电脑的一种新用户界面或用户界面的附加部分，还是仅仅是专用设备的功能？

Bill: Well, go beyond the laptop. Vision. Software is doing vision and so, you know, imagine a game machine where you’re just going to pick up the bat and swing it or the tennis racket and swing it.

比尔：好吧，超越笔记本电脑。视觉。软件正在进行视觉处理，所以，你知道，想象一下一个游戏机，你只需拿起球棒挥动它，或者拿起网球拍挥动它。

Walt: We have one of those.

沃尔特：我们有一个这样的。

Kara: Yeah. Wii. 卡拉：是的。Wii。

Walt: Well, the Wii. 沃尔特：好吧，Wii。

Bill: No, that’s not it. You can’t pick up your tennis racket…

比尔：不，不是这样。你不能拿起你的网球拍……

Kara: Oh, your tennis racket.

卡拉：哦，你的网球拍。

Walt: Oh, I see what you mean, yeah.

沃尔特：哦，我明白你的意思了，是的。

Bill: And swing it. 比尔：然后挥动它。

Kara: Right. 卡拉：对。

Bill: You can’t sit there with your friends and do those natural things. That’s a 3D positional device. This is video recognition. This is a camera seeing what’s going on. And, you know, in the meetings, like you’re on a video conference, you don’t know who’s speaking, you know, they’re audio only, things like that. The camera will be ubiquitous. Now, of course, we have to design it in a way that people’s expectations about privacy are handled appropriately, but software can do vision and it can do it very, very inexpensively. And that means this stuff becomes pervasive. You don’t just talk about it being in a laptop device. You talk about it being part of the meeting room or the living room or…

比尔：你不能和你的朋友坐在那里做那些自然的事情。这是一个 3D 定位设备。这是视频识别。这是一台摄像头在观察发生的事情。而且，你知道，在会议中，就像你在视频会议上，你不知道谁在发言，你知道，他们只是音频，类似的事情。摄像头将无处不在。当然，我们必须以一种适当处理人们对隐私期望的方式来设计它，但软件可以进行视觉识别，而且可以非常非常便宜。这意味着这些东西变得无处不在。你不仅仅谈论它在笔记本电脑设备中。你谈论它成为会议室或客厅的一部分，或者……

Walt: But on the laptop, the way that–and, you know, maybe what we have is great and we don’t need any new big radical change, but when I turn on my laptop, whether it’s my Vista laptop or my Mac laptop, you know, there have been improvements, but it’s a lot like it was 10 years ago. It’s much better, the graphics are better and all that.

沃尔特：但是在笔记本电脑上，方式是这样的——你知道，也许我们现在拥有的很好，我们不需要任何新的重大变革，但当我打开我的笔记本电脑，无论是我的 Vista 笔记本还是我的 Mac 笔记本，你知道，确实有了一些改进，但和 10 年前相比，还是很相似。它变得更好了，图形更好了，所有这些都更好了。

Kara: We talked about that radical change to happen for both your companies.

卡拉：我们谈到了你们两家公司发生的根本变化。

Walt: But, you know, you have the mouse, you have the icons, you move around, you have the–I mean, and you talked about what a big gamble it was in ’84 to do that and then the follow on with Windows. We still essentially have that approach and I’m just wondering is that going to change.

沃尔特：但是，你知道，你有鼠标，有图标，你可以移动，你有——我的意思是，你谈到了在 84 年这样做是多么大的冒险，然后是后来的 Windows。我们基本上仍然采用这种方法，我只是想知道这是否会改变。

Bill: Touch, ink, speech, vision, those things come in, but they don’t come in as a radical substitute. I think you’re also underestimating the degree of evolution. Because you’ve lived with it year by year, you know, say we’d sent you away for 10 years and you came back and you said, wow, there’s a search paradigm and that’s more at the center of how you’d find these things. There’s tagging. That’s more at the center of how you’d find these things. You know, the evolution is a very good thing. In fact, even in that evolution, the stuff we did with Office, there’s this balance you strike where, when you make a change–in that case, the ribbon–you’re going to have some users who feel like, oh, jeez, I have to spend a little bit of time to be brought along to that. You know, but there has been good evolution, but these natural interface things are the revolutionary change and they will be very revolutionary. That, together with the 3D that I talked about.

比尔：触摸、墨水、语音、视觉，这些东西都在进步，但它们并不是作为一种根本的替代品出现。我认为你也低估了进化的程度。因为你年复一年地与之共存，你知道，比如说我们把你送走十年，你回来时会说，哇，有一个搜索范式，这更处于你找到这些东西的中心。还有标签。这更处于你找到这些东西的中心。你知道，进化是件非常好的事情。事实上，即使在这种进化中，我们在 Office 中所做的事情，也有一个平衡，当你做出改变时——在这种情况下是功能区——你会有一些用户觉得，哦，天哪，我得花一点时间来适应这个。但确实有很好的进化，但这些自然界面是革命性的变化，它们将会非常革命性。再加上我提到的 3D。

Kara: Steve? I know you’re working on something, it’s going to be beautiful, we’ll see it soon.

卡拉：史蒂夫？我知道你在做一些事情，它会很美，我们很快就会看到。

Walt: And you can’t talk about it.

沃尔特：而且你不能谈论它。

Steve: Yeah. 史蒂夫：是的。

Walt: Bill discusses all his secret plans. You don’t discuss any.

沃尔特：比尔讨论了他所有的秘密计划。你没有讨论任何。

Steve: I know, it’s not fair. But I think the question is a very simple one, which is how much of the really revolutionary things people are going to do in the next five years are done on the PCs or how much of it is really focused on the post-PC devices. And there’s a real temptation to focus it on the post-PC devices because it’s a clean slate and because they’re more focused devices and because, you know, they don’t have the legacy of these zillions of apps that have to run in zillions of markets.

史蒂夫：我知道，这不公平。但我认为问题非常简单，那就是在接下来的五年里，人们将会在个人电脑上做多少真正革命性的事情，或者有多少事情实际上是集中在后 PC 设备上的。确实有一种诱惑让人们将重点放在后 PC 设备上，因为这是一个干净的起点，因为它们是更专注的设备，并且因为你知道，它们没有那些必须在无数市场中运行的无数应用程序的遗留问题。

广泛的兼容性成了缺点。

And so I think there’s going to be tremendous revolution, you know, in the experiences of the post-PC devices. Now, the question is how much to do in the PCs. And I think I’m sure Microsoft is–we’re working on some really cool stuff, but some of it has to be tempered a little bit because you do have, you know, these tens of millions, in our case, or hundreds of millions in Bill’s case, users that are familiar with something that, you know, they don’t want a car with six wheels. They like the car with four wheels. They don’t want to drive with a joystick. They like the steering wheel.

所以我认为在后 PC 设备的体验中将会有巨大的革命。现在的问题是 PC 该做多少。我相信微软正在开发一些非常酷的东西，但其中一些必须稍微克制一下，因为你知道，我们有数千万用户，或者在比尔的情况下，有数亿用户，他们对某些东西很熟悉，他们不想要一辆六轮的车。他们喜欢四轮的车。他们不想用操纵杆驾驶。他们喜欢方向盘。

And so, you know, you have to, as Bill was saying, in some cases, you have to augment what exists there and in some cases, you can replace things. But I think the radical rethinking of things is going to happen in a lot of these post-PC devices.

所以，你知道，正如比尔所说，在某些情况下，你必须增强现有的东西，而在某些情况下，你可以替换一些东西。但我认为，许多后 PC 设备将会发生根本性的重新思考。

Kara: I’m going to ask a more personal question. We have just a minute before we’re going to open up for questions. What’s the greatest–I’m not going to call this a Barbara Walters moment and ask you what tree you’d like to be, but…

卡拉：我想问一个更私人的问题。我们还有一分钟就要开始提问了。你认为最大的——我不想称之为巴巴拉·沃尔特斯时刻，也不想问你想成为什么树，但……

Walt: She would love to be Barbara Walters, let me just tell you.

沃尔特：我告诉你，她会很想成为芭芭拉·沃尔特斯。

Kara: No, I would not. What’s the greatest misunderstanding…

卡拉：不，我不会。最大的误解是什么……

Steve: Ding. 史蒂夫：叮。

Kara: Ding, right. Thank you, Steve. About your relationship. I mean, you’re obviously going to go down in history–history books already say it kind of thing. But what’s the greatest misunderstanding in your relationship and about each other? What would you say would be–this idea of cat fight? Which one of the many?

卡拉：对，没错。谢谢你，史蒂夫。关于你们的关系。我是说，你们显然会载入史册——历史书已经这么说了。但你们关系中最大的误解是什么，关于彼此的呢？你会说是什么——这种猫斗的想法？哪一种呢？

Steve: We’ve kept our marriage secret for over a decade now.

史蒂夫：我们已经把婚姻秘密保持了十多年。

Kara: Canada. That trip to Canada.

卡拉：加拿大。那次去加拿大的旅行。

[Laughter and applause] [笑声和掌声]

Bill: I don’t think either of us have anything to complain about, in general. And I know that the projects, like the Mac project, was just an incredible thing, a fun thing where we were taking a risk. We did look a lot younger in that video.

比尔：我认为我们俩在总体上没有什么好抱怨的。我知道像 Mac 项目这样的项目真是令人难以置信的事情，是一件有趣的事情，我们在冒险。我们在那段视频中看起来确实年轻了很多。

Steve: We did. 史蒂夫：我们做到了。

Kara: You looked 12 in the first one.

卡拉：你在第一部里看起来像 12 岁。

Bill: That’s how I try and look.

比尔：这就是我努力呈现的样子。

Steve: He was 12. 史蒂夫：他 12 岁。

Bill: But, no, it’s been fun to work together. I actually kind of miss some of the people who aren’t around anymore. You know, people come and go in this industry. It’s nice when somebody sticks around and they have some context of all the things that have worked and not worked. The industry gets all crazy about some new thing, you know, like, there’s always this paradigm of the company that’s successful is going to go away and stuff like that. It’s nice to have people seeing the waves and waves of that and yet, when it counted, to take the risk to bring in something new.

比尔：但是，不，这段时间一起工作很有趣。我其实有点想念那些不再在这里的人。你知道，这个行业里人来人往。当有人留下来并且对所有成功和失败的事情有一些了解时，这很好。行业总是对一些新事物感到疯狂，你知道，总是有这样的范式：成功的公司会消失之类的。能够看到这些波动的人是很好的，但在关键时刻，能够冒险引入一些新东西更是难能可贵。

Walt: One last question and then we’ll go to the audience.

沃尔特：最后一个问题，然后我们就去听听观众的意见。

Kara: Oh, no, he didn’t answer us.

卡拉：哦，不，他没有回答我们。

Walt: Sorry, what? 沃尔特：抱歉，什么？

Steve: I haven’t answered.

史蒂夫：我还没有回答。

Walt: Oh, I’m sorry. 沃尔特：哦，我很抱歉。

Kara: He only talked about his secret gay marriage so…

卡拉：他只谈到了他的秘密同性婚姻，所以……

Walt: Oh, I thought that was your answer.

沃尔特：哦，我以为那是你的答案。

Steve: No, that wasn’t my answer. You know, when Bill and I first met each other and worked together in the early days, generally, we were both the youngest guys in the room, right? Individually or together. I’m about six months older than he is, but roughly the same age. And now when we’re working at our respective companies, I don’t know about you, but I’m the oldest guy in the room most of the time. And that’s why I love being here.

史蒂夫：不，那不是我的答案。你知道，当比尔和我第一次见面并在早期一起工作时，我们通常都是房间里最年轻的人，对吧？无论是单独还是一起。我比他大大约六个月，但年龄大致相同。现在当我们在各自的公司工作时，我不知道你怎么样，但我大多数时候都是房间里最年长的人。这就是我喜欢在这里的原因。

Walt: Happy to oblige. Happy to oblige.

沃尔特：乐意效劳。乐意效劳。

Steve: And, you know, I think of most things in life as either a Bob Dylan or a Beatles song, but there’s that one line in that one Beatles song, “you and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.” And that’s clearly true here.

史蒂夫：你知道，我把生活中的大多数事情都看作是鲍勃·迪伦或披头士的歌曲，但在那首披头士的歌中有一句歌词，“你和我有着比前方延伸的道路更长的回忆。”这在这里显然是正确的。

Kara: Oh, sweet. 卡拉：哦，甜蜜。

Walt: Oh, you know what? I think we should end it there. Let’s just end it there.

沃尔特：哦，你知道吗？我觉得我们应该到此为止。就到此为止吧。

Kara: I have a little tear right here.

卡拉：我这里有一点眼泪。

Walt: Thank you. Thank you very much.

沃尔特：谢谢你。非常感谢。

Kara: Thank you so much.

卡拉：非常感谢你。

[Applause] [掌声]

Kara: Wow. Okay. So some audience questions, please.

卡拉：哇。好的。那么请问一些观众的问题。

Walt: Questions. Can we have some lights? Roger.

沃尔特：问题。我们可以开一些灯吗？罗杰。

Roger: Roger McNamee from Elevation Partners. Hey, guys, that was incredible. Thank you very much. We’ve got a big election coming up next year and I’m curious if there are any issues that you see in Silicon Valley that we all ought to be focused on communicating effectively to the next potential president of the United States. That is, any common ground that we share. Because it’s weird, you don’t actually hear any issues that people are talking about right now and I’m curious if you guys have any in mind.

罗杰：我是来自 Elevation Partners 的罗杰·麦克纳米。嘿，大家，那真是太棒了。非常感谢。明年我们将迎来一场重要的选举，我想知道你们是否看到硅谷有什么问题，我们都应该专注于有效地传达给下一任美国总统。也就是说，我们是否有共同的立场。因为很奇怪，现在你实际上听不到人们在谈论的任何问题，我想知道你们是否有想到什么。

Walt: Bill? 沃尔特：比尔？

Bill: Well, certainly, education is one that I’d put at the top of the list.

比尔：当然，教育是我会放在首位的。

Roger: Are there technological solutions right now that they could do something about or is that just sort of, like…

罗杰：现在有没有技术解决方案可以采取措施，还是说这只是……

Bill: No. Technology is going to be helpful and more and more, but the way that teachers are measured and made excellent, the way that the high schools are designed, the expectations they have, it’s not just a pure technology thing. It’s more an institutional practice where the opportunity is. You know, there should be a lot of debate about the different ways of doing that.

比尔：不，技术将会越来越有帮助，但教师的评估和优秀的标准、高中设计的方式以及他们的期望，不仅仅是纯粹的技术问题。这更多的是一种制度实践，机会就在这里。你知道，关于不同做法的辩论应该很多。

Walt: Steve? 沃尔特：史蒂夫？

Steve: Boy, we’ve got some pretty big problems and I think most of them are much bigger than anything Silicon Valley can contribute right now to solve. So hopefully some of those will get solved. I also think we underestimate how much all of our industry depends on stability. We’ve enjoyed, you know, a long period of stability and we’ve been able to focus on technology and growing our businesses and stuff and I think we take that for granted sometimes.

史蒂夫：伙计，我们面临一些相当大的问题，我认为其中大多数问题远比硅谷目前能解决的要大得多。所以希望其中一些问题能够得到解决。我还认为我们低估了整个行业对稳定性的依赖。我们享受了一个漫长的稳定期，能够专注于技术和发展我们的业务等，我觉得有时候我们对此视而不见。

One of the more interesting areas that we all suffer from, of course, is in the area of energy dependency. And there’s a lot of work going on, I know a lot of investing going on, anyway, I don’t know if the results are there, but a lot of investing going on in alternative energy and maybe Silicon Valley can play a small role in some of that stuff, too.

我们所有人都面临的一个更有趣的领域当然是能源依赖。我知道有很多工作在进行，也有很多投资在进行，反正我不知道结果如何，但在替代能源方面确实有很多投资，也许硅谷在其中也能发挥一些小作用。

Kara: Are you guys investing in that area personally or…

卡拉：你们个人在那个领域投资吗，还是……

Bill: Some. 比尔：一些。

Kara: Which might be a lot from you.

卡拉：这可能对你来说很多。

Bill: A billion here or there.

比尔：这里或那里十亿。

Walt: Steve, are you investing in that area?

沃尔特：史蒂夫，你在那个领域投资吗？

Steve: No. 史蒂夫：不。

Kara: Just a Prius? 卡拉：就一辆普锐斯吗？

Steve: Yeah, just appreciating.

史蒂夫：是的，只是在欣赏。

Walt: Over there. 沃尔特：在那里。

Don: Hi. Don Eklund, Sony Pictures. My question is really, at what point is there too much diversity? It was talked about a few times in the discussion, the fact that now microprocessors are very low cost, memory’s low cost, software is ubiquitous, but, my life has been made better by standards, like coding standards, network standards. And it seems like we’re reaching a point where diversity is starting to take hold to a point where we’re not going to be able to have the kinds of convergence devices that I think everyone would really be able to appreciate. And I’m wondering, you know, is this going to be, like, health care or mass transit where you just can never put it back in the bottle again? And I’d like to get your perspective on that, if there’s still an opportunity to have some grand convergence devices that can really simplify people’s lives and enrich their lives.

唐：嗨。我是唐·埃克伦，索尼影业。我的问题是，究竟在什么情况下多样性就变得过多？在讨论中提到过几次，现在微处理器成本很低，内存成本低，软件无处不在，但我的生活因标准而变得更好，比如编码标准、网络标准。似乎我们正达到一个多样性开始占据主导地位的阶段，以至于我们将无法拥有我认为每个人都能真正欣赏的那种融合设备。我在想，这是否会像医疗保健或公共交通一样，永远无法再回到原来的状态？我想听听您对此的看法，是否还有机会拥有一些真正能简化人们生活并丰富他们生活的伟大融合设备。

Walt: Steve? 沃尔特：史蒂夫？

Steve: Well, I think Bill and I would agree that we can get it down to two. No, I think it’s hard to limit imagination and innovation. I think there’s always going to be a bunch of new, great things. And I think that’s part of what we put up with to get the innovation. We put up with a little bit of aggravation to get the innovation.

史蒂夫：嗯，我想比尔和我会同意我们可以缩减到两个。不，我认为限制想象力和创新是很困难的。我认为总会有一堆新的、伟大的东西。而我认为这就是我们为了获得创新而忍受的一部分。我们忍受了一些烦恼来获得创新。

Bill: And I think the marketplace is awfully good at allowing diversity when it should and then getting rid of it when it shouldn’t.

比尔：我认为市场在应该允许多样性时做得非常好，而在不应该时又能将其去除。

Steve: And then letting it come back sometimes.

史蒂夫：然后有时候让它回来。

Bill: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in terms of standards and things. I mean, the Internet standards have been incredibly powerful, you know, video formats, things like this. And so I don’t see things that are going to really hold back a convergence device. You know, sure, there’s a lot of wireless approaches, but that’s pretty healthy right now. They each have various merits. A few of them will end up overlapping the other ones and kill the other ones out, but I think the industry’s done very well at latching onto standards for the things that there were no longer any innovation in and then focusing on the places where it wasn’t clear which approach was best.

比尔：是的，是的。我是说，在标准和其他方面。我是说，互联网标准非常强大，比如视频格式之类的。因此，我看不到有什么会真正阻碍融合设备的发展。你知道，当然，有很多无线方案，但现在这很健康。它们各自都有不同的优点。其中一些会与其他方案重叠并淘汰其他方案，但我认为行业在抓住那些不再有创新的标准方面做得很好，然后专注于那些不清楚哪种方法最好的地方。

Walt: Jesse? 沃尔特：杰西？

Jesse: Hi. I’m Jesse Kornbluth, HeadButler.com. But you’re not the youngest guys in the room anymore, it’s perhaps appropriate to ask you a question about legacy, each of you. Bill, even your harshest critic would have to admit that your philanthropy work is, you know, planet-shaking, incredible, and could be, if you make it, a second act so amazing that it would dwarf what you’ve actually done at Microsoft.

杰西：嗨。我是杰西·科恩布鲁斯，HeadButler.com。但你们不再是房间里最年轻的人了，也许适合问你们每个人一个关于遗产的问题。比尔，即使是你最严厉的批评者也不得不承认，你的慈善工作是震撼世界的，令人难以置信的，如果你愿意，它可以成为一个如此惊人的第二幕，以至于会掩盖你在微软所做的事情。

[Applause] [掌声]

If you had to choose a legacy, what would it be? And Steve, do you look at Bill and you think, gee, that guy is so lucky he had a company so rich with talent that he didn’t have to personally come in every day and save it and, you know, I wish I had the opportunity?

如果你必须选择一个遗产，那会是什么？史蒂夫，你看比尔时会不会想，哇，那家伙真幸运，他有一家公司人才济济，他不必每天亲自来拯救它，你知道，我希望我也有这样的机会？

Kara: OK. He’s not going to answer that one.

卡拉：好的。他不会回答那个问题。

Walt: Bill? 沃尔特：比尔？

Bill: Well, the most important work I got a chance to be involved in, no matter what I do, is the personal computer. You know, that’s what I grew up, in my teens, my 20s, my 30s, you know, I even knew not to get married until later because I was so obsessed with it. That’s my life’s work. And it’s lucky for me that some of the skills and resources–but I put skills first–that I was able to develop through those experiences can be applied to the benefit of the people who haven’t had technology, including medicine, working for them. So it’s an incredible blessing to have two things like that. But the thing that I’ll, you know, if you look inside my brain, it’s filled with software and, you know, the magic of software and the belief in software and, you know, that’s not going to change.

比尔：嗯，我有机会参与的最重要的工作，无论我做什么，就是个人电脑。你知道，这就是我成长的过程，在我十几岁、二十几岁、三十几岁的时候，你知道，我甚至知道要等到更晚才结婚，因为我对它太着迷了。这是我一生的工作。对我来说幸运的是，我能够通过这些经历发展出的一些技能和资源——但我把技能放在第一位——可以应用于那些没有技术的人，包括医学，来为他们服务。所以拥有这样的两样东西真是一个不可思议的祝福。但是，如果你看看我脑子里，它充满了软件，还有软件的魔力和对软件的信仰，你知道，这不会改变。

Steve: So your question was about whether I wish I didn’t have to go into Apple every day?

史蒂夫：所以你的问题是我是否希望我不必每天都去苹果公司？

Jesse: No, if you envied Bill a bit, this second act that he has.

杰西：不，如果你稍微羡慕比尔的话，他的这个第二幕。

Steve: Oh, no. I think the world’s…

史蒂夫：哦，不。我觉得世界…

Kara: You want to do anything else.

卡拉：你想做其他任何事情。

Steve: I think the world’s a better place because Bill realized that his goal isn’t to be the richest guy in the cemetery, right? That’s a good thing and so he’s doing a lot of good with the money that he made.

史蒂夫：我认为这个世界变得更美好是因为比尔意识到他的目标不是成为墓地里最富有的人，对吧？这是一件好事，因此他用自己赚的钱做了很多好事。

You know, I’m sure Bill was like me in this way. I mean, I grew up fairly middle-class, lower middle-class, and I never really cared much about money. And Apple was so successful early on in life that I was very lucky that I didn’t have to care about money then. And so I’ve been able to focus on work and then later on, my family.

你知道，我相信比尔在这方面和我很像。我的意思是，我的成长背景相当于中产阶级，甚至是下层中产阶级，我从来不太在乎钱。而苹果在早期就非常成功，所以我很幸运，那时我不需要担心钱。因此，我能够专注于工作，后来又专注于我的家庭。

And I sort of look at us as two of the luckiest guys on the planet because we found what we loved to do and we were at the right place at the right time and we’ve gotten to go to work every day with super bright people for 30 years and do what we love doing.

我把我们看作是这个星球上最幸运的两个人，因为我们找到了自己热爱的事情，并且在正确的时间和地点，我们已经能够和超级聪明的人一起工作 30 年，做我们喜欢的事情。

And so it’s hard to be happier than that. You know, your family and that. What more can you ask for? And so I don’t think about legacy much. I just think about being able to get up every day and go in and hang around these great people and hopefully create something that other people will love as much as we do. And if we can do that, that’s great.

所以很难比这更快乐了。你知道，家人之类的。你还能要求什么呢？所以我不太考虑遗产。我只是想着每天能起床，和这些伟大的人在一起，希望能创造出其他人和我们一样喜欢的东西。如果我们能做到这一点，那就太好了。

Walt: Yeah. 沃尔特：是的。

Rob: Thanks, Steve and Bill. Rob Killion, here with my business partner. We’ve got a 100-person Internet media business. I’m wondering what would be the single most valuable piece of advice you’d give us to even attempt to create some of the value that you guys have done in both your very impressive companies.

罗伯：谢谢你们，史蒂夫和比尔。我是罗伯·基利昂，这是我的商业伙伴。我们有一家 100 人的互联网媒体公司。我想知道，你们会给我们什么最有价值的建议，以便尝试创造一些你们在两家非常令人印象深刻的公司中所创造的价值。

Bill: Well, I think actually–it may be in both cases–correct me if I’m wrong–the excitement wasn’t really seeing the economic value. You know, even when we wrote down at Microsoft in 1975, “a computer on every desk and in every home,” we didn’t realize, oh, we’ll have to be a big company. Every time, I thought, “Oh, God, can we double in size?” Jeez, can we manage that many people? Will that feel fun still? You know, and so every doubling was, like, okay, this is the last one. And so the economic thing wasn’t at the forefront. The idea of being at the forefront and seeing new things and things we wanted to do and being able to bring in different people who were fun to work with eventually with a pretty broad set of skills and figuring out how to get those people those broad skills to work well together has been one of the greatest challenges. You know, I made more of my mistakes in that area maybe than anywhere, but, you know, eventually getting some of those teams to work very well together. So, you know, I think it’s a lot about the people and the passion. And it’s amazing that the business worked out the way that it did.

比尔：嗯，我认为实际上——可能在这两种情况下——如果我错了请纠正我——兴奋点并不是真正看到经济价值。你知道，即使在 1975 年我们在微软写下“每个桌子和每个家庭都有一台电脑”时，我们并没有意识到，哦，我们必须成为一家大公司。每次我都在想，“哦，天哪，我们能否翻倍？”天哪，我们能管理那么多人吗？那样还会有乐趣吗？你知道，所以每次翻倍就像是，好吧，这是最后一次。因此，经济问题并不是最重要的。处于前沿，看到新事物和我们想做的事情，以及能够引入不同的人，他们有着广泛的技能并且有趣，最终能够让这些人之间的广泛技能很好地协作，这一直是最大的挑战之一。你知道，我在那个领域犯的错误可能比其他地方还要多，但，最终让一些团队很好地合作。所以，你知道，我认为这很大程度上与人和激情有关。令人惊讶的是，生意以这样的方式运作。

Steve: Yeah. People say you have to have a lot of passion for what you’re doing and it’s totally true. And the reason is because it’s so hard that if you don’t, any rational person would give up. It’s really hard. And you have to do it over a sustained period of time. So if you don’t love it, if you’re not having fun doing it, you don’t really love it, you’re going to give up. And that’s what happens to most people, actually. If you really look at the ones that ended up, you know, being “successful” in the eyes of society and the ones that didn’t, oftentimes, it’s the ones [who] were successful loved what they did so they could persevere, you know, when it got really tough. And the ones that didn’t love it quit because they’re sane, right? Who would want to put up with this stuff if you don’t love it?

史蒂夫：是的。人们说你必须对自己所做的事情充满热情，这完全是正确的。原因在于这件事非常困难，如果你没有热情，任何理智的人都会放弃。这真的很难。而且你必须在一段持续的时间内去做。所以如果你不喜欢它，如果你做这件事时没有乐趣，如果你真的不热爱它，你就会放弃。这实际上是大多数人的遭遇。如果你仔细看看那些在社会眼中“成功”的人和那些没有成功的人，往往是那些成功的人热爱他们所做的事情，因此他们能够在困难时坚持下去。而那些不热爱它的人则会放弃，因为他们是理智的，对吧？如果你不喜欢这件事，谁会愿意忍受这些呢？

So it’s a lot of hard work and it’s a lot of worrying constantly and if you don’t love it, you’re going to fail. So you’ve got to love it and you’ve got to have passion and I think that’s the high-order bit.

所以这需要很多努力，也需要不断地担心，如果你不热爱它，你就会失败。因此，你必须热爱它，必须有激情，我认为这就是最重要的。

The second thing is, you’ve got to be a really good talent scout because no matter how smart you are, you need a team of great people and you’ve got to figure out how to size people up fairly quickly, make decisions without knowing people too well and hire them and, you know, see how you do and refine your intuition and be able to help, you know, build an organization that can eventually just, you know, build itself because you need great people around you.

第二件事是，你必须成为一个真正优秀的人才侦察员，因为无论你多聪明，你都需要一支优秀的团队，你必须能够迅速评估人，做出决策而不需要太了解他们，雇佣他们，然后看看你的表现，完善你的直觉，并能够帮助建立一个最终能够自我发展的组织，因为你需要优秀的人在你身边。

Walt: Lise. 沃尔特：丽丝。

Lise: Lise Buyer. Question, I guess it’s historical curiosity. You approached the same opportunity so very differently. What did you learn about running your own business that you wished you had thought of sooner or thought of first by watching the other guy?

莉丝：莉丝·拜尔。问题，我想这出于历史的好奇心。你以如此不同的方式看待同样的机会。你从经营自己的生意中学到了什么，是你希望自己能更早想到的，或者是通过观察其他人而首先想到的？

Bill: Well, I’d give a lot to have Steve’s taste. [laughter] He has natural–it’s not a joke at all. I think in terms of intuitive taste, both for people and products, you know, we sat in Mac product reviews where there were questions about software choices, how things would be done that I viewed as an engineering question, you know, and that’s just how my mind works. And I’d see Steve make the decision based on a sense of people and product that, you know, is even hard for me to explain. The way he does things is just different and, you know, I think it’s magical. And in that case, wow.

比尔：好吧，我愿意付出很多来拥有史蒂夫的品味。[笑声] 他有一种天赋——这绝不是开玩笑。我认为在直觉品味方面，无论是对人还是对产品，我们曾在苹果产品评审会上讨论过软件选择的问题，如何处理这些事情，我认为这是一个工程问题，你知道，这就是我的思维方式。我看到史蒂夫根据对人和产品的感觉做出决定，这种感觉甚至让我难以解释。他做事情的方式就是不同，我认为这很神奇。在这种情况下，哇。

Steve: You know, because Woz and I started the company based on doing the whole banana, we weren’t so good at partnering with people. And, you know, actually, the funny thing is, Microsoft’s one of the few companies we were able to partner with that actually worked for both companies. And we weren’t so good at that, where Bill and Microsoft were really good at it because they didn’t make the whole thing in the early days and they learned how to partner with people really well.

史蒂夫：你知道，因为沃兹和我创办公司是基于做整个香蕉的理念，我们在与人合作方面并不是很好。其实，有趣的是，微软是我们能够成功合作的少数几家公司之一，这对双方都有效。而我们在这方面做得不太好，而比尔和微软在这方面做得非常好，因为他们在早期并没有做整个产品，他们学会了如何与人很好地合作。

And I think if Apple could have had a little more of that in its DNA, it would have served it extremely well. And I don’t think Apple learned that until, you know, a few decades later.

我认为如果苹果在其 DNA 中多一些这种特质，它会非常受益。我认为苹果直到几十年后才意识到这一点。

Walt: Over here. 沃尔特：在这里。

Charlie: Yeah, hi. Charlie Brenner from Fidelity Investments. In our financial services industry, we are focusing very strongly on aging and retiring baby boomers, a huge demographic.

查理：是的，嗨。我是富达投资的查理·布伦纳。在我们的金融服务行业中，我们非常关注老龄化和退休的婴儿潮一代，这是一个庞大的人口群体。

Steve: We’re not that old yet.

史蒂夫：我们还不算太老。

Charlie: No, I wasn’t– The question is different from what it sounds like it’s going to be here. But most of the innovation that we see coming from computer and Internet companies is kind of youth-oriented. And I’m just wondering if there are activities going on in your companies acknowledging what’s going to be happening generationally.

查理：不，我不是——这个问题与听起来的不同。但是我们看到的大多数来自计算机和互联网公司的创新都是面向年轻人的。我只是想知道你们的公司是否有一些活动在承认即将发生的代际变化。

Steve: Oh, not true. I’ll give you one example. So we started building in video cameras into almost all our computers a few years ago. And the response by people of all ages, but in particular seniors, has been off the charts because they’re buying these things now and they’re buying them for their grandkids, their sons and daughters with their grandkids so they can stay in touch with their grandkids. And they’re videoconferencing more than younger people are. And it’s incredible what this has done. So that’s just one simple example, but there’s, like, dozens of them that have clicked with, you know, seniors that are living independently that want to stay in touch with extended families and do other things like that.

史蒂夫：哦，不是这样的。我给你一个例子。几年前，我们开始在几乎所有的电脑中内置摄像头。各个年龄段的人对此的反应都非常热烈，尤其是老年人，因为他们现在购买这些设备，并且为他们的孙子孙女、儿子女儿购买，以便能够与孙子孙女保持联系。他们的视频会议比年轻人还要多。这真是不可思议。这只是一个简单的例子，但还有很多类似的例子，都是与那些希望与大家庭保持联系并做其他事情的独立生活的老年人产生共鸣的。

Bill: Yeah, I think it’s a very good point, when you look at the size of the market. And that’s partly why it’s great that there are all these companies out there who can see, okay, what would you do for seniors? I think natural user interface is particularly applicable here because the keyboard, you know, we’re sort of warped in that we grew up using the keyboard and so it’s extremely natural to us, but things like–and that’s partly why when we showed the Surface computer, I showed it privately to a bunch of CEOs a couple weeks ago, I was kind of stunned by how blown away they were. But their ease of navigation is just not the same. And when they saw that, the idea that they could organize their photo album, it meant more to them than it did to me.

比尔：是的，我认为这是一个非常好的观点，当你考虑市场的规模时。这也是为什么有这么多公司能够看到，好的，你会为老年人做些什么，这一点非常重要。我认为自然用户界面在这里特别适用，因为键盘对我们来说是有些扭曲的，我们是在使用键盘的环境中长大的，所以这对我们来说是非常自然的，但像这样的事情——这也是为什么当我们展示 Surface 电脑时，我几周前私下向一群首席执行官展示时，我对他们的震惊感到有些惊讶。但他们的导航便利性就是不一样。当他们看到这个时，他们能够整理自己的相册，这对他们来说意味着的更多。

Steve: I’ll give you another example. We’ve got a little shy of 200 retail stores now. And one of the things that stores are doing is personal training now. It’s called one-to-one. And we are up to now a run rate of a million personal training sessions–they last an hour–per year. A million per year.

史蒂夫：我再给你一个例子。我们现在有将近 200 家零售店。现在这些店正在进行个人训练。这被称为一对一。到目前为止，我们的个人训练课程的年运行率达到了 100 万次——每次持续一个小时。每年 100 万次。

Walt: You only started a little while ago, right?

沃尔特：你才刚开始不久，对吧？

Steve: Yeah, we started about a year ago and we’re up to a million training sessions per year run rate now. And a lot of those folks–some of them, anyway, many of them–are seniors. And they’re coming in and they’re spending an hour learning how to use Office and they’re spending an hour learning how to video-conference. They can basically come in as much as they want and they can schedule these things throughout a year and they pay $99, I think, a year for it. And it’s been great.

史蒂夫：是的，我们大约在一年前开始，现在每年的培训课程已经达到一百万次。很多参与者——其中一些，很多——都是老年人。他们来这里花一个小时学习如何使用 Office，花一个小时学习如何进行视频会议。他们基本上可以随时来，并且可以在一年内安排这些课程，我想他们每年支付 99 美元。效果很好。

Kara: Last question. 卡拉：最后一个问题。

Walt: Now the last question over there.

沃尔特：现在最后一个问题在那边。

Unidentified male:We all share our common science-fiction experience of, you know, the metaverse or the matrix where we all could communicate without being in the same place. And by the way, thank you both for providing us the best platforms so far to go to chat rooms or to all go to a MySpace. It’s a far cry from these things that we see on Star Trek at the holodeck. What kinds of things can you imagine that are partway there that could be much better than the three-window iChat that we might see in the next five or 10 years?

未识别男性：我们都分享着共同的科幻经历，比如说元宇宙或矩阵，在那里我们可以在不同的地方进行交流。顺便说一下，感谢你们提供了迄今为止最好的平台，让我们可以进入聊天室或一起去 MySpace。这与我们在《星际迷航》中看到的全息甲板大相径庭。你们能想象哪些已经部分实现的事物，在未来五到十年中可能会比我们现在看到的三窗口 iChat 更好呢？

Bill: Well, I think Steve’s going to announce his transporter.

比尔：嗯，我想史蒂夫会宣布他的传送器。

Steve: I want Star Trek. Just give me Star Trek.

史蒂夫：我想要《星际迷航》。给我《星际迷航》。

Bill: No, I think short of the transporter, most things you see in science fiction are, in the next decade, the kinds of things you’ll see. The virtual presence, the virtual worlds that both represent what’s going on in the real world and represent whatever people are interested in. This movement in space as a way of interacting with the machine. I think the deep investments that have been made at the research level will pay off with these things in the next 10 years.

比尔：不，我认为除了传送器之外，科幻小说中看到的大多数东西，在未来十年里，都会成为现实。虚拟存在、虚拟世界既代表了现实世界中的情况，也代表了人们感兴趣的事物。这种在空间中的移动作为与机器互动的一种方式。我认为在研究层面上所做的深度投资将在未来十年内带来回报。

Walt: Steve? 沃尔特：史蒂夫？

Steve: I don’t know. And that’s what makes it exciting to go into work every day, because there’s–as we talked about earlier, this is an extraordinarily exciting time in the industry, and lots of new stuff happening. So, you know, I can’t even begin to think what it’s going to be like 10 years from now.

史蒂夫：我不知道。这正是每天上班令人兴奋的原因，因为正如我们之前所谈到的，这个行业正处于一个极其激动人心的时期，很多新事物正在发生。所以，我甚至无法想象十年后的样子会是什么样。

Walt: Thank you so much.

沃尔特：非常感谢你。

Kara: Thank you so much.

卡拉：非常感谢你。

[Applause] [掌声]

Kara: Thank you so much. That was great.

卡拉：非常感谢。那真棒。

Walt: That’s great. Thank you for being here.

沃尔特：太好了。谢谢你在这里。

2007-05-30 Steve Jobs.Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference

2007-05-30 Steve Jobs.Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference

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