Alan Murray: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte, who, like me, are super focused on how CEOs can lead in the context of disruption and evolving societal expectations.

艾伦·穆雷：领导力下一步是由德勤的团队支持的，他们和我一样，专注于首席执行官如何在破坏和不断变化的社会期望中引领。

Ellen McGirt: We’ve got guests today. We have live energy in the room. I’m so excited.

艾伦·麦基特：今天我们有嘉宾。房间里充满了活力。我太兴奋了。

Murray: Whoo! Make some noise folks.

穆雷：哇！大家来点声响。

[Clapping]

[掌声]

I don’t know if we know how to do this with guests. Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. I’m Alan Murray, and I’m here with my everything, everywhere, all at once co-host, Ellen McGirt.

我不知道我们是否知道如何与嘉宾一起进行这个节目。欢迎来到领导力下一步，这是一个关于商业领导力规则变化的播客。我是艾伦·穆雷，我和我的全能搭档艾伦·麦基特在这里。

McGirt: Alan, you are an Oscar winner to me every day. So thank you for that beautiful introduction, and as our listeners probably caught there at the top, we actually recorded today’s interview in front of a live audience.

麦基特：艾伦，你在我心中每天都是奥斯卡获奖者。所以谢谢你那美妙的介绍，正如我们的听众可能在开头听到的，我们实际上是在一个现场观众面前录制今天的访谈。

Murray: A live audience. Yeah, it was really awesome. We flew to Dallas, Texas, where Deloitte, our podcast partner, was hosting a group of leaders from a bunch of different industries who’ve been identified by their companies as future CEOs. And as you know, Ellen, every week on this podcast, we have CEOs tell us what it takes to do their jobs and how that’s changing, the skills they need, the issues on their plate—all dramatically different than they were just a few years ago. So being able to talk about that in front of that group that was experiencing those very challenges themselves was pretty cool.

穆雷：一个现场观众。是的，这真的很棒。我们飞到了德克萨斯州的达拉斯，德勤，我们的播客合作伙伴，正在接待一群来自不同产业的领导者，他们已被各自公司认定为未来的首席执行官。正如你所知道的，艾伦，我们每周在这个播客中都有首席执行官告诉我们做他们的工作需要什么，以及这些工作是如何变化的，他们需要的技能，他们面临的问题——这些都与几年前截然不同。因此，能够在那群正在经历这些挑战的人面前讨论这些问题真是太酷了。

McGirt: It really was, and it was a wonderful vibe in the room, so welcoming, and it actually made me wish we had a Leadership Next–Next-type podcast, because it was such a chance to take a pulse on what was top of mind for people who are on that spot in the bench on their way into the top spot. And naturally, of course, the guest who joined us was perfect to talk about all of that. We spoke to Vicki Hollub, who’s the CEO of Occidental Petroleum. Oxy is number 135 on the Fortune 500 and Vicki’s run the company since 2016. And Alan I know our focus here is stakeholder capitalism, but I have to point out that last year, Occidental Petroleum was the best performing stock in the S&P 500 and I’m sure that makes shareholders very very happy.

麦基特：确实如此，房间里的氛围很棒，欢迎的感觉，让我真的希望我们有一个类似“领导力下一步-下一步”的播客，因为这是一个了解那些即将进入顶级职位的人的想法的绝佳机会。当然，加入我们的嘉宾非常适合讨论这一切。我们与维基·霍鲁布进行了交谈，她是西方石油公司的首席执行官。西方石油在《财富》500强中排名第135，维基自2016年以来一直在管理这家公司。艾伦，我知道我们在这里的重点是利益相关者资本主义，但我必须指出，去年，西方石油是标准普尔500指数中表现最好的股票，我相信这让股东们非常非常高兴。

Murray: I’m sure made them very happy but, Ellen, I also just enjoyed this conversation so much. Vicki Hollub. I don’t know what the right adjective is. She’s an unassuming CEO. She is almost an accidental CEO. She told us during the interview that she really never imagined she was going to get the job until just about a year before she did it. But so impressive. Her story is so impressive and obviously, her results are so impressive.

穆雷：我相信这让他们非常高兴，但，艾伦，我也非常享受这次对话。维基·霍鲁布。我不知道该用什么形容词来形容她。她是一位低调的首席执行官。她几乎是一个意外的首席执行官。在采访中，她告诉我们，她真的从未想过自己会得到这个职位，直到大约一年前才想到。但她的故事真是令人印象深刻，显然，她的结果也非常令人印象深刻。

But Ellen, let me say first, before we dive into this, we need to share some very important and some very sad news with our listeners. And listeners, brace yourselves but Ellen is stepping away from being a regular co-host on Leadership Next. I’m going to do everything I can to get you back here as frequently as possible, Ellen, but I think it’s important people know you’re taking a break.

但艾伦，让我先说，在我们深入讨论之前，我们需要与听众分享一些非常重要且令人悲伤的消息。听众们，请做好准备，艾伦将不再是“领导力下一步”的常规联合主持人。我会尽力让你尽可能多地回到这里，艾伦，但我认为让人们知道你正在休息是很重要的。

McGirt: It is sort of sad, but I’m healthy and happy. I’m just taking on some new editorial roles at Fortune and I’m working on some pretty cool things. So I want you to think of me, Alan, as always your forever sidekick, but also as an always available leadership correspondent going forward. So I’m looking forward to how the show evolves and how I can contribute.

麦基特：这有点悲伤，但我很健康，也很快乐。我只是接受了《财富》杂志的一些新的编辑角色，并且我正在做一些非常酷的事情。所以我希望你把我想象成，艾伦，永远是你的搭档，同时也是一个随时可以提供领导力报道的人。因此，我期待着这个节目的发展，以及我如何能够贡献。

Murray: We will definitely definitely make use of that. Want to continue these conversations, and I’ve got to keep practicing my superlatives.

穆雷：我们肯定会好好利用这一点。希望继续这些对话，我得继续练习我的超级lative。

McGirt: And co-host or not, if I’m having a tough day, you know, I’m going to call you up and you can introduce me the way that you’ve done. It’s always been a great boost and of course, since I know exactly where you work. I will be knocking on your door.

麦基特：无论是联合主持还是不是，如果我有一个艰难的日子，你知道，我会打电话给你，你可以像以前那样介绍我。这总是一个很大的鼓舞，当然，因为我知道你工作的地方。我会敲你的门。

Murray: I will always be ready for the phone call.

Murray: 我随时准备接听电话。

McGirt: Well, thank you for that, and thank you to all the listeners out there. I love being a part of your lives. I'm not going far. But let's get back to Occidental Petroleum. Without further ado, here's our amazing, everything, everywhere, all at once conversation with CEO Vicki Hollub.

McGirt: 好的，谢谢你，也感谢所有的听众。我很荣幸能成为你们生活的一部分。我不会走远。但让我们回到西方石油公司。不再赘述，这里是我们与首席执行官Vicki Hollub进行的精彩、全方位、无所不包的对话。

Murray: I'd like to start by asking you the big question. You and I've talked about this before, but there are a lot of people in this world—and there are a fair number of people who listen to this podcast—who seem to believe that you can't be an oil company CEO determined to maximize returns for your shareholders and be seriously concerned about climate change at the same time. You can't do both. They're mutually exclusive. So how do you do it?

Murray: 我想先问你一个大问题。我们之前讨论过这个话题，但世界上有很多人——包括不少收听这个播客的人——似乎认为，一个致力于为股东最大化回报的石油公司CEO不可能同时也真正关心气候变化。他们认为这两者不能兼顾，是互相排斥的。那么，你是如何做到的？

Vicki Hollub: Well, first of all, I care a lot about climate change, because I live on Galveston Island, and I see what hurricanes do to my friends who own businesses on the island. My daughter has a bed and breakfast, and that's her livelihood. The increasing ferocity of the storms in Galveston are damaging a lot of people. And you look at what's happening in California. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking what's happening all around the world. So, climate does matter to me. And I do believe that you can be a CEO of an oil and gas company and do something to address it. But I will say that we at Oxy are uniquely positioned to be able to do this, because one of the things I think it's hard for any business ever to do is to be something that you're not. And so I think you always need to do things that help you leverage your core competence. And if you can do something that leverages your core competence, it may not be sustainable. But we are leveraging our core competence in the way that we've developed a strategy to mitigate and, ultimately by 2050, neutralize our carbon footprint—and not only do it for ourselves, but to help others do it as well. And ultimately, I guess we're going to talk about the technologies to do that. But the important message is that you have to look at your business and figure out a way to become carbon neutral. That's whether you're an oil and gas company, or any kind of service company, if you're a retail, whatever you are. In fact we've had Airbus who signed a contract with us to offset their emissions, so that can become carbon neutral, ultimately. And we've had the Houston Astros, we've had the Houston Texans, both sign deals with us to neutralize their travel.

Vicki Hollub: 首先，我非常关心气候变化，因为我住在加尔维斯顿岛，我亲眼目睹飓风对我那些在岛上拥有企业的朋友造成的影响。我女儿经营着一家民宿，那是她的生计。加尔维斯顿日益猛烈的风暴正在伤害很多人。看看加利福尼亚发生的事情，令人心碎。世界各地发生的事情都令人心碎。所以，气候确实对我很重要。我确实相信，一个石油和天然气公司的CEO可以采取行动应对气候变化。但我要说，我们西方石油公司处于独特的位置能够做到这一点，因为我认为任何企业都很难成为自己本质上不是的东西。因此，我认为你总是需要做那些能够利用你核心能力的事情。如果你能做一些利用核心能力的事情，它可能是可持续的。我们正在利用我们的核心能力，通过我们制定的战略来减轻，并最终到2050年实现我们的碳足迹中和——不仅为我们自己做到这一点，还要帮助其他人做到这一点。最终，我想我们会讨论实现这一目标的技术。但重要的信息是，你必须审视你的业务，找出一种实现碳中和的方法。无论你是石油和天然气公司，还是任何类型的服务公司，零售商，或者其他任何企业。事实上，我们已经与空中客车签署了合同，以抵消他们的排放，使他们最终实现碳中和。我们还与休斯顿太空人队和休斯顿德克萨斯人队签署了协议，以中和他们的差旅排放。

McGirt: Vicki, since you became CEO in 2016, there have been a lot of deals signed—and I'm going to throw to Alan in just a minute to walk through some of the nuts and bolts on what you've been up to in those years. But I thought we could have a foundational look at the complexities of energy transition, because I think this is where it gets hard for people to understand what your core competency is. The idea of a carbon-neutral fuel, what does that look like? And some of the technologies and innovations that research and development on how to more effectively get take carbon out of the air, out of the world and out of our lives.

McGirt: Vicki，自从你在2016年成为CEO以来，已经签署了很多协议——我马上会请Alan详细介绍这些年来你所做的一些具体工作。但我认为我们可以先从根本上看看能源转型的复杂性，因为我认为这是人们难以理解你们核心竞争力的地方。碳中和燃料的概念是什么样的？以及一些技术和创新研发，如何更有效地从空气中、从世界中、从我们的生活中去除碳。

Hollub: When people talk about the climate transition, what they initially think about is all we need to do is build more wind and sola, and not use oil or natural natural gas to create electricity and use EVs instead of internal combustion engines. The problem with that thought is that that electricity generates today only 27% of the greenhouse gases. So if you built enough solar and wind to offset all the electricity generated in the world, you've only taken care of 27% the greenhouse gases going into the atmosphere. Secondly, if we continue down the path of building electric vehicles, then that 27% may get higher and you might have to offset more of that. So that would be also kind of challenging, but you could do that with wind and solar ultimately. The reality is that there are so many products that are made from oil and gas derivatives, that it would be almost impossible to find a different way to build those products and to make those products over the next 20, 30, 40 years to have some alternative way of making those, like the IV bags in the hospitals, the IV tubes. Everything what we're sitting on here, this, your iPhones, the cars you drive, everything. The TVs you watch. We used to have a commercial, and then more people have done it recently I think in different ways, but we used to have a commercial that shows the guy watching football sitting on his sofa and then the if you take away everything that's in that room with him that was made from oil and gas, he ends up sitting on the floor and the game is gone and now he's got no chips. The chips are spilled everywhere because there's no plastic bowl to hold them. So we have a challenge. And it's not that there aren't people willing to step up to this challenge. But the challenge is going to take longer, and it's going to take trillions of dollars.

Hollub: 当人们谈论气候转型时，他们最初想到的是我们只需要建造更多的风能和太阳能，不使用石油或天然气发电，用电动车代替内燃机车辆。这种想法的问题在于，目前发电只产生了27%的温室气体。所以，即使你建造了足够的太阳能和风能来抵消世界上所有的发电，你也只解决了27%进入大气层的温室气体。其次，如果我们继续走电动车发展的道路，那么这27%可能会更高，你可能需要抵消更多。这也会是一个挑战，但最终你可以用风能和太阳能做到这一点。现实是，有太多产品是由石油和天然气衍生物制成的，在未来20、30、40年内，几乎不可能找到另一种方式来制造这些产品，比如医院里的输液袋、输液管。我们现在坐的一切，你们的iPhone，你们开的车，一切。你们看的电视。我们曾经有一个广告，最近更多人以不同方式做了类似的事情，但我们曾经有一个广告，展示一个人坐在沙发上看足球，然后如果你拿走房间里所有由石油和天然气制成的东西，他最终会坐在地板上，比赛消失了，现在他没有薯片了。薯片撒得到处都是，因为没有塑料碗来盛它们。所以我们面临一个挑战。并不是说没有人愿意迎接这个挑战。但这个挑战需要更长的时间，并且需要数万亿美元。

Murray: So you believe the answer is to—part of the answer—and there's no silver bullet here. There are many pieces. But part of the answer is to be able to create petroleum without adding CO2 to the environment. Talk about your plan.

Murray: 所以你认为答案是——部分答案——这里没有灵丹妙药。有很多部分组成。但部分答案是能够在不向环境添加二氧化碳的情况下生产石油。谈谈你的计划。

Hollub: What we have is we have come across a technology that was developed by Carbon Engineering, a company out of Canada. And what it does is it has the capability to extract CO2 out of the atmosphere. And then it's what we do with that CO2 that's so important. First of all, for those that don't know, there's about 50% more CO2 in the atmosphere today than there was in pre-industrial times. So the storms we're seeing today is caused by that level of CO2 that we have in the atmosphere. If you could shut down emissions from every facility that emits CO2 in the world, we would still need to take CO2 out of the atmosphere. So we're a company that's building what's going to be the largest direct air capture facility in the world. Right now, there's a company that has just built their largest. It's extracting 4,000 tons per year out of the atmosphere. Ours, our first one will extract 500,000 tons and the next, the ones that we build after that will extract 1 million tons out of the atmosphere of CO2. So the reason we're uniquely positioned to do this and that it leverages our core competence is for 50 years we've been using CO2 in oil reservoirs to create more production out of those reservoirs. So I'll come back to that later. But that's one important thing. But the other thing that's important to know is that we have a chemicals business that is helpful and has synergies with what we want to do. The fluid that is going to be required that will help us to get that CO2 out of the air, when the air is is pulled through a contact tower, and the fluid in that contact tower will be potassium hydroxide, which we at Oxy are the largest marketer of in the United States second largest in the world. So that's a synergy. The material that goes in that contact tower will be PVC, and we are a large manufacturer of PVC. And we're going to put it in the Permian where we have pipelines and reservoirs to put the CO2 into. So that's why we have the synergies, we have the capability, we have the experience, we have knowledge, we have the reservoirs that are already approved by EPA to do this. So we're a company that can make this happen.

Hollub: 我们发现了一项由加拿大公司Carbon Engineering开发的技术。它能够从大气中提取二氧化碳。然后我们对这些二氧化碳的处理方式非常重要。首先，对于那些不知道的人来说，如今大气中的二氧化碳比工业化前时期多了约50%。所以我们今天看到的风暴是由大气中这种水平的二氧化碳造成的。即使你能关闭世界上每一个排放二氧化碳的设施，我们仍然需要从大气中移除二氧化碳。因此，我们是一家正在建造世界上最大的直接空气捕捉设施的公司。目前，有一家公司刚刚建造了他们最大的设施，每年从大气中提取4,000吨。而我们的第一个设施将提取500,000吨，之后我们建造的设施将从大气中提取100万吨二氧化碳。我们之所以处于独特的位置来做这件事，并且它利用了我们的核心能力，是因为50年来我们一直在油藏中使用二氧化碳来增加这些油藏的产量。稍后我会回到这一点。但另一个重要的事情是，我们有一个化学品业务，它与我们想做的事情有帮助和协同效应。当空气通过接触塔时，帮助我们从空气中获取二氧化碳的流体将是氢氧化钾，我们西方石油是美国最大、世界第二大的氢氧化钾生产商。所以这是一种协同效应。进入接触塔的材料将是PVC，我们是PVC的大型制造商。我们将把它放在二叠纪盆地，那里我们有管道和油藏来存放二氧化碳。这就是为什么我们有协同效应，我们有能力，我们有经验，我们有知识，我们有已经获得EPA批准做这件事的油藏。所以我们是一家能够实现这一目标的公司。

Murray: I just want to ask you to repeat something you said when we were talking in the greenroom because it's such a mind blowing statistic. You said the Permian Basin has enough room to store all the CO2 emissions from 28 years. 

Murray: 我想请你重复一下我们在后台谈话时你说的话，因为这是一个令人震惊的统计数据。你说二叠纪盆地有足够的空间来存储28年的所有二氧化碳排放。

Hollub: From the United States for 28 years. So just in the Permian, we could store 28 years of emissions from the United States. Tremendous capacity. The reservoirs in the Permian almost have the same pore space as the big reservoir in Saudi Arabia. It's huge and it's very it's really important to our world.

Hollub: 美国28年的排放量。仅在二叠纪盆地，我们就可以存储美国28年的排放量。容量巨大。二叠纪盆地的油藏几乎拥有与沙特阿拉伯大型油藏相同的孔隙空间。它非常巨大，对我们的世界真的非常重要。

[Music starts]

[音乐开始]

Murray: I'm here with Joe Ucuzoglu, the CEO of Deloitte and the sponsor of this podcast for all of its season. Thank you for that, Joe. 

Murray: 我现在与德勤CEO Joe Ucuzoglu在一起，他是本季播客的赞助商。谢谢你，Joe。

Joe Ucuzoglu: Pleasure to be here, Alan. 

Joe Ucuzoglu: 很高兴来到这里，Alan。

Murray: Joe, we've had this rising talk about a notion of stakeholder capitalism, that businesses have a responsibility not just to their shareholders, but to their employees, to the communities they operate in, to the natural environment. Is all of that talk real and will it last—particularly when times get tough?

Murray: Joe，我们一直在讨论利益相关者资本主义的概念，即企业不仅对股东负有责任，还对员工、运营所在社区和自然环境负有责任。这些讨论是真实的吗？它会持续下去吗——特别是在困难时期？

Ucuzoglu: I see a pretty durable shift, Alan, with a lot of momentum here. CEOs are prioritizing sustainability. They're prioritizing purpose. They're prioritizing trust. You certainly see some noise. On one end, there's some skepticism as to whether this is virtue signaling. On the other end, there's some lingering debate about whether this broader focus on stakeholders detracts from shareholder returns. If you cut through all the noise, what we're seeing is actually a huge convergence of interests. This is core to sustaining a vibrant capitalist system. If you take a long-term view, the only way that you're going to deliver sustainable shareholder returns is to take really good care of all those constituents that you referenced.

Ucuzoglu: 我看到一个相当持久的转变，Alan，这里有很多动力。CEO们正在优先考虑可持续性。他们优先考虑目标。他们优先考虑信任。当然，你会看到一些噪音。一方面，有人怀疑这是否只是道德表态。另一方面，关于这种更广泛地关注利益相关者是否会削弱股东回报的争论仍在继续。如果排除所有噪音，我们看到的实际上是利益的巨大融合。这是维持充满活力的资本主义体系的核心。如果采取长期视角，实现可持续股东回报的唯一方式就是真正好好照顾你提到的所有这些群体。

Murray: And is it working, Joe?

Murray: 这有效吗，Joe？

Ucuzoglu: Well, business was at the heart of leading society through the pandemic. Business is at the heart of addressing the climate challenge. We're seeing massive momentum with very tangible commitments and tangible actions towards decarbonizing the economy. So yes, I think the evidence is ample.

Ucuzoglu: 嗯，企业是引领社会度过疫情的核心。企业也是应对气候挑战的核心。我们看到朝着经济脱碳方向有着巨大的动力，有着非常具体的承诺和切实的行动。所以是的，我认为证据是充分的。

Murray: Joe, thank you. 

Murray: Joe，谢谢你。

Ucuzoglu: Alan, it's a real pleasure.

Ucuzoglu: Alan，这是我的荣幸。

[Music ends]

[音乐结束]

McGirt: I alluded earlier earlier to many of the deals and many of the things that you've been working on and it has been just a remarkable few years. There's things that happened to all of us, the Ukraine and pandemic and then there was an ambitious deal that you set up for you to get to the finish line on it. It was the Anadarko deal. It strikes me as one of the most misunderstood or just not understood case studies in ambitious growth, certainly in any sector, but definitely in yours. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?

McGirt: 我之前提到过你一直在进行的许多交易和项目，这确实是非常了不起的几年。我们都经历了一些事情，乌克兰战争和疫情，然后你还设立了一个雄心勃勃的交易并将其推向完成线，那就是Anadarko交易。在我看来，这是雄心勃勃增长的最被误解或者说最不被理解的案例研究之一，在任何行业都是如此，但在你们行业尤其明显。你能给我们讲一讲这个吗？

Hollub: Yes. I don't know how many people in here know about it. But for our industry, we were buying a company that was pretty close to our size. And so in terms of market cap, so we were at the time that we launched our attempt to acquire Anadarko, we were a company that was around a $50 billion company, and we were offering $38 billion to buy Anadarko. And to bring on their debt, which was 12 billion at the time, so that got us to about 50 billion. They had all midstream business at about 7 billion in debt. So this was about close to a $55 billion deal for a $50 billion market cap company. So it was big. 

Hollub: 好的。我不知道这里有多少人了解这件事。但对于我们的行业来说，我们收购的是一家规模与我们非常接近的公司。就市值而言，在我们启动收购Anadarko的尝试时，我们是一家约500亿美元的公司，我们提出380亿美元收购Anadarko。加上他们当时120亿美元的债务，总共约500亿美元。他们还有中游业务约70亿美元的债务。所以这对一个市值500亿美元的公司来说，是一笔接近550亿美元的交易。规模很大。

[Laughter from audience]

[观众笑声]

We've been working it for a couple of years. Just when we thought we were over the hump and about to make the deal happen, I was driving from Galveston to my office on a Friday morning and heard on CNBC, that the deal had been done and it had been done with one of our competitors.

我们已经筹备了几年。就在我们认为已经度过难关即将达成交易时，一个周五早上，我正从加尔维斯顿开车去办公室，在CNBC听到交易已经完成，而且是与我们的一个竞争对手完成的。

Murray: You can't say but I can. It was Chevron.

Murray: 你可能不方便说，但我可以说。是雪佛龙。

Hollub: So then I go okay, what do we do now? And so I left. I went to my office. Went down and saw my BD guy and we were we were very disappointed…

Hollub: 然后我想，好吧，我们现在该怎么办？我离开了，去了我的办公室。下楼去见了我的业务发展负责人，我们都非常失望...

Murray: You're kind of competitive too. 

Murray: 你也很有竞争心。

Hollub: Just a little bit. My problem is I grew up in the state of Alabama and my parents were huge Alabama football. Bear Bryant and that whole thing. You cannot go through that experience…Bear Brian was at Alabama the whole time, from the time I was born to the time I graduated from college, Bear Bryant was the coach of the University of Alabama. How could I not be competitive?

Hollub: 有那么一点点。我的问题是我在阿拉巴马州长大，我的父母是阿拉巴马橄榄球队的狂热粉丝。贝尔·布莱恩特和那整个传统。你不可能经历那种经历而不受影响...贝尔·布莱恩特在阿拉巴马的整个时期，从我出生到我大学毕业，贝尔·布莱恩特一直是阿拉巴马大学的教练。我怎么可能不具有竞争精神呢？

Murray: So you were channeling Bear Bryant at this moment?

Murray: 所以这时你在引导贝尔·布莱恩特的精神？

Hollub: He would have been a little more savvy about this whole thing, I'm sure. We thought all right, we're done here because it's a done deal. And so then I drive over and it's an interesting that happened. I hadn't thought about the connection here. But I had to go out of the office for a meeting and the meeting I went to was for the American Heart Association's meeting that for the group that sponsors the Bear Bryant Coach of the Year award. I was chairing it that year. This meeting and I'm I'm sitting there and my phone kept buzzing and buzzing and buzzing and buzzing and and I thought it must be an accident, something's happened in one of our field operations. So I picked up the phone and I turned it around and it says "Breaking news: Occidental was the other bidder for Anadarko." So somebody leaked that that we had been the other bidder and when they did our stock started dropping like a rock. And so I thought this is not good for us and and so went back and debated it, looked back over all the numbers and the deal just made so much more sense for us and what we wanted to do with it than it did with was what our competitors' core competence was and what they wanted to do with it. And so, we made the decision that we would then make an offer and our first stock offer was not accepted. Anadarko made it quite clear that unless we brought significant cash they were not going to accept our offer.

Hollub: 我确信他对整件事会更加精明。我们想，好吧，我们完蛋了，因为交易已经完成了。然后我开车过去，发生了一件有趣的事。我没有想到这里的联系。但我必须离开办公室参加一个会议，这个会议是美国心脏协会的会议，是赞助贝尔·布莱恩特年度最佳教练奖的那个组织。那一年我担任主席。在会议中我坐在那里，我的手机一直在嗡嗡响个不停，我以为一定是发生了事故，我们的某个现场操作出了问题。所以我拿起手机，翻过来一看，上面写着"突发新闻：西方石油是Anadarko的另一个竞标者"。有人泄露了我们是另一个竞标者的消息，当这个消息出来后，我们的股票开始像石头一样直线下跌。我想这对我们不是好事，所以回去讨论了这个问题，重新检查了所有数字，发现这笔交易对我们以及我们想用它做的事情比对我们竞争对手的核心能力和他们想用它做的事情更有意义。因此，我们决定提出报价，但我们的第一个股票报价没有被接受。Anadarko明确表示，除非我们带来大量现金，否则他们不会接受我们的报价。

So I started looking for ways to raise cash. I can tell you I was sitting in my my husband's man cave—I have my own my own part of the house—but I happened to be sitting in his man cave, when I get an email from Patrick Pouyanné from Total, who said Vicki, in the email, and I'm glad he sent me an email because I could only understand about two thirds of what he says. He's got a heavy French accent. So I was trying to read it in the way he was saying. He said, Vicki, if you have if you're contemplating any additional moves around this deal, just know that we're interested in in some of the Africa assets. I thought, hmmm, a source of cash. I then got on a plane headed to to Paris to meet with him on a Friday night to talk about what he would do. Then on Saturday, I had had another event in the industry that I went to and won't tell you the rest of that story. But I was there when the CEO of a major bank, it was a friend of mine, called and he said Vicki, if you need additional cash, call Warren Buffett and he gave me his number. And so I'm thinking…

所以我开始寻找筹集现金的方法。我当时正坐在我丈夫的"男人洞穴"里——我在家里有自己的空间——但碰巧我坐在他的"男人洞穴"里，这时我收到了道达尔公司Patrick Pouyanné发来的电子邮件，邮件中称呼我为Vicki，我很庆幸他给我发了电子邮件，因为我通常只能理解他说话内容的三分之二。他有很重的法国口音。所以我试着按照他的说法来理解。他说，Vicki，如果你正在考虑围绕这笔交易的任何额外行动，请知道我们对一些非洲资产感兴趣。我想，嗯，这是一个现金来源。然后我乘飞机前往巴黎，在周五晚上与他会面，讨论他会做什么。然后在周六，我参加了行业内的另一个活动，不会告诉你那个故事的其余部分。但当时我在那里，一家大银行的CEO，我的一个朋友，打电话给我说，Vicki，如果你需要额外的现金，打电话给沃伦·巴菲特，他给了我巴菲特的电话号码。于是我在想...

Murray: Did you roll your eyes a little bit?

Murray: 你是不是有点翻白眼？

Hollub: Yeah, I'm thinking that he's not going to answer his phone, I'm going to leave a message. And he was [going to be] like, Who is this crazy person calling me on a Saturday morning? And so he answered the phone, which was very surprising. So we set a meeting for the next day. I got the additional funds that I needed from from Mr. Buffett and the rest of it is history. We made the offer.

Hollub: 是的，我想他不会接电话，我会留言。他会想，这是哪个疯子在周六早上给我打电话？但他接了电话，这让我非常惊讶。所以我们约定第二天见面。我从巴菲特先生那里获得了我需要的额外资金，剩下的就是历史了。我们提出了报价。

Murray: You're not going to tell us about meeting Warren Buffett?

Murray: 你不打算告诉我们关于见沃伦·巴菲特的事吗？

Hollub: The fact that he answered the phone shocked me and I asked for the meeting for 10 o'clock the next morning and he said sure. I'll meet you at 10 in the morning. He said call me when you land so I called him when I landed in Omaha. Got to his door and he was sitting there with a with a sweater on and opening the door for me, no security. And so I thought, first of all, he's very trusting individual. And so went in and then had to have the conversation and made the deal.

Hollub: 他接电话这件事就让我震惊，我请求第二天早上10点见面，他说可以，早上10点见。他说落地后给他打电话，所以我在奥马哈落地后给他打了电话。到了他的门前，他穿着毛衣坐在那里，为我开门，没有安保人员。所以我想，首先，他是个非常信任人的人。然后我进去，进行了谈话，达成了交易。

McGirt: One of the things that we talked about—and Alan you follow this much more closely than I did at the time—was the general rough and tumble nastiness of that time. And a general lack of respect.

McGirt: 我们谈到的一件事——Alan，你当时比我更密切地关注这件事——是当时普遍的粗暴和恶劣氛围。以及普遍缺乏尊重。

Murray: That's what I was going to say. I think you were consistently underestimated from…how long had you been CEO?

Murray: 这正是我想说的。我认为你一直被低估...你担任CEO多久了？

Hollub: I had been CEO less than three years.

Hollub: 我当时担任CEO还不到三年。

Murray: You have been consistently underestimated. People didn't think you could win the battle for Andarko. When you won it, people said, oh she overpaid. It's not worth it. On your carbon capture effort you've been dissed not just by environmentalists but by your fellow CEOs in the oil industry. And yet last year, you posted the largest return to shareholders of any company in the S&P 500. I'm just curious why you think you've been so consistently underestimated.

Murray: 你一直被低估。人们认为你赢不了Anadarko的争夺战。当你赢了之后，人们又说，哦她付得太多了，不值得。在你的碳捕获项目上，你不仅被环保主义者贬低，还被石油行业的同行CEO们贬低。然而去年，你为股东创造的回报率是标普500指数中任何公司中最高的。我很好奇，你认为为什么你会被如此一贯地低估？

Hollub: To me, it was a little bit surprising that to me that people said we overpaid because we really only offered, we did offer 5 billion more than our competition, but we knew we weren't going to keep Mozambique. The big difference in that was Mozambique and the synergies. Mozambique we got for $4 billion from Total for Mozambique and we knew we were going to sell it immediately. We closed on Mozambique one month after we closed Anadarko. So that was 4 billion of the difference. The other difference was we had assumed that we would get and we, again we'd work this for over two years, we knew the assets. We assumed that we get 2 billion of synergies. They had assumed that they would get 1 billion and synergies. We got our 2 billion in synergies less than six months after the close of the deal.

Hollub: 对我来说，人们说我们付价过高有点令人惊讶，因为我们实际上只比竞争对手多出价了50亿美元，但我们知道我们不会保留莫桑比克资产。最大的区别在于莫桑比克资产和协同效应。莫桑比克资产我们以40亿美元从道达尔那里获得，我们知道会立即出售。我们在完成Anadarko交易后一个月就完成了莫桑比克资产的交易。所以这就是40亿美元的差异。另一个差异是我们假设我们会获得——再次强调，我们为此筹备了两年多，我们了解这些资产——我们假设会获得20亿美元的协同效应。他们假设会获得10亿美元的协同效应。而我们在交易完成后不到六个月就实现了20亿美元的协同效应。

Murray: But you're sort of avoiding our question.

Murray: 但你有点在回避我们的问题。

McGirt: I taught her how to do that.

McGirt: 是我教她怎么这么做的。

Murray: Why do you think you've been underestimated?

Murray: 你认为为什么你会被低估？

Hollub: I really don't know. Some of my friends have said they believe it was a gender thing.

Hollub: 我真的不知道。我的一些朋友说他们认为这是性别问题。

Murray: There are not a lot of women in the oil industry.

Murray: 石油行业里没有很多女性。

Hollub: I think it could very well have been just a sign of the times, the way first of all our industry was out of favor. And secondly, some people thought it was hostile to do a deal when somebody else had already done a deal but I felt like they were hostile because we'd been working it and talking to their CEO to the Anadarko CEO for two years. So I didn't feel like we were making the hostile move. I felt like we were going after something that we knew would be transformational for our company. Because what it's done for us now is we used to have 50% of the value of our company used to be international. Now 80% of the value of our company is here in the domestic US. And so, geopolitically, we're in a much better situation than we were before.

Hollub: 我认为这很可能只是时代的标志，首先是我们的行业不受欢迎。其次，一些人认为当别人已经达成交易时再去做交易是敌意行为，但我觉得他们才是敌意的一方，因为我们已经为此努力并与Anadarko的CEO交谈了两年。所以我不觉得我们在采取敌意行动。我觉得我们在追求一些我们知道会对公司产生变革性影响的东西。因为它现在为我们做的是，我们过去公司50%的价值在国际上，现在我们公司80%的价值在美国国内。因此，从地缘政治角度看，我们现在的处境比以前好多了。

McGirt: You are the only woman who runs a major US oil and gas oil company. And there are maybe what 10 15, not even 20% of women leadership ranks in the entire industry. You are a rare figure on the scene. So I'm curious looking back on your history, was there a moment when you knew that was clear that you were on the bench?

McGirt: 你是唯一一位管理美国主要石油和天然气公司的女性。整个行业中女性领导层可能只有10-15%，甚至不到20%。你在这个领域是一个罕见的人物。所以我很好奇回顾你的历史，是否有一个时刻你清楚地知道你已经进入了候选名单？

Hollub: That time didn't come until 2015 and it was in 2015 that our board had made the decision that Steve Chazen would retire in a year and they needed a CEO to take his place. They thought to look externally and and ended up looking externally but also considering two internal candidates. And I was one of them and Steve Chazen himself told me on a Friday afternoon. I was living in Bakersfield for a time for our company. I'd lived in several places for our company. Bakersfield was one of the more challenging ones. Russia, Ecuador and Venezuela were also a little challenging but driving back and forth eery Friday to meet with Steve. One Friday he just threw it out there. He said that, by the way, you know you're going to be one of the candidates to take the CEO role. At that time I was running our California operations and had come up through operations and the company. I had never aspired to be CEO. I loved what I did. I'm an engineer. I love engineering. I love operations. And I never thought I'd be a candidate to be CEO.

Hollub: 那个时刻直到2015年才到来，就是在2015年，我们的董事会决定Steve Chazen将在一年后退休，他们需要一位CEO来接替他。他们考虑向外部寻找，最终确实向外部寻找，但也考虑了两位内部候选人。我是其中之一，Steve Chazen本人在一个周五下午告诉了我。当时我为公司在贝克斯菲尔德生活了一段时间。我为公司在几个地方生活过。贝克斯菲尔德是比较具挑战性的地方之一。俄罗斯、厄瓜多尔和委内瑞拉也有点挑战性，但我每周五都会来回开车去见Steve。有一个周五他突然提出来，他说，顺便说一下，你知道你将成为CEO职位的候选人之一。那时我正在管理我们在加州的运营，并且是从运营部门一路走来的。我从未渴望成为CEO。我热爱我所做的工作。我是一名工程师。我热爱工程。我热爱运营工作。我从未想过我会成为CEO的候选人。

Murray: What did you say when he said that?

Murray: 当他这么说时，你说了什么？

Hollub: I thought he was joking. I laughed. He didn't laugh but he had a dry sense of humor. I thought maybe you know, it's it's one of those jokes and sometimes he laughed at his jokes and sometimes he didn't. I thought it was a joke. Actually, when I got in the car to go back to Bakersfield I called one of our other executives and told him what had happened, He said, Vicki, you are a candidate.

Hollub: 我以为他在开玩笑。我笑了。他没笑，但他有一种冷幽默。我想也许这是他那些玩笑之一，有时他会对自己的玩笑笑，有时不会。我以为这是个玩笑。实际上，当我上车回贝克斯菲尔德时，我给我们的另一位高管打了电话，告诉他发生了什么，他说，Vicki，你确实是候选人。

McGirt: So now you're in the position to think about who should be in leadership and you're also in a position to think about who has not been considered before from underrepresented or whoever you think, however you measure that. How are you thinking about the future and making sure that the leadership in the industry is as diverse as it can possibly be?

McGirt: 现在你处于思考谁应该担任领导职位的位置，你也在思考谁以前没有被考虑过，无论是代表性不足的群体还是你认为的其他人，无论你如何衡量。你如何思考未来，确保行业领导层尽可能多元化？

Hollub: I'm a part of a woman's group in Houston called Women in Energy and what we're trying to do is build the networking within our industry, women that are in the industry, to try to help people help move them along and give them some of the advice and help that that we could have benefited from sooner. And so we're trying to move people up that way. I'm trying internally within our own organization to start the process of helping people prepare for roles because what's happening with women in our industry and some other diverse groups is that women in particular, they do fine until they get about mid career, which is about the time that they're starting families and then you see the stat drop dramatically of how when they go out and they maybe want to take a little time with their new family. And they come back, then they don't start back at the place where they would have otherwise been, which is something we in our industry have to figure out how to fix. One way to fix that is to try to some way keep them engaged in the process. And so if we can have women that aren't quitting but women that are on a sabbatical, who are still engaged with what's happening with our company, and in some sort of role where they're not losing those years of experience.

Hollub: 我是休斯顿一个名为"能源行业女性"的女性团体的成员，我们正在努力在行业内建立网络，帮助行业内的女性前进，给她们一些我们本可以更早受益的建议和帮助。所以我们正在这样帮助人们晋升。我在我们自己的组织内部开始帮助人们为角色做准备，因为在我们行业中女性和一些其他多元化群体面临的问题是，女性特别是在职业生涯中期之前都表现良好，而这大约是她们开始组建家庭的时候，然后你会看到统计数据急剧下降，当她们离开工作岗位，可能想要花一些时间陪伴新家庭。当她们回来时，她们没有从原本应该处于的位置重新开始，这是我们行业必须想办法解决的问题。解决这个问题的一种方法是尝试以某种方式让她们继续参与这个过程。所以如果我们能有那些不是辞职而是休假的女性，她们仍然参与公司发生的事情，并在某种角色中不会失去那些年的经验。

Murray: And this is the issue that everybody in this room is is is dealing with. These are all people who have been selected by their companies as potential CEOs and are trying to think about how the hell do you prepare for the enormity of that job? How did you prepare yourself?

Murray: 这是在座每个人都在处理的问题。这些都是被各自公司选为潜在CEO的人，他们都在思考该如何为这个巨大的职责做准备？你是如何为自己做准备的？

Hollub: Within that year, I would say the CEO that I was replacing was was also a great mentor to me. He took me around to to what is the most challenging part of my job is dealing with the investment community. So he took me around to…

Hollub: 在那一年里，我要说我要替换的CEO也是我的一位很好的导师。他带我去接触我工作中最具挑战性的部分，那就是与投资界打交道。所以他带我去...

Murray: I've thought you were going to say the most fun part of your job.

Murray: 我还以为你要说这是你工作中最有趣的部分。

Hollub: It's challenging for me because, it's even challenging today because I have to remember what we've disclosed. And it's just challenging. I would say that when he was taking me around to help me help show me how he did it and how it works, I thought this is never going to work for me because he was a very funny guy and dry humor and investors loved him absolutely adored him. And so I didn't work well with them because I'm trying to use the southern football analogies in Boston in New York. And then finally he told me after a couple of meetings where the the analogies fell flat. He said they don't get it.

Hollub: 这对我来说很有挑战性，即使到今天也很有挑战，因为我必须记住我们已经披露了什么。这就是挑战。我要说当他带我四处走动，帮助我，向我展示他是如何做的以及它如何运作时，我想这对我来说永远行不通，因为他是一个非常幽默的人，有冷幽默，投资者们喜欢他，绝对崇拜他。所以我与他们合作得不好，因为我试图在波士顿和纽约使用南方足球的比喻。最后在几次会议后，那些比喻都没有引起共鸣，他告诉我说他们不懂这些。

Murray: They don't follow Alabama. They weren't fans of Bear Bryant.

Murray: 他们不关注阿拉巴马。他们不是贝尔·布莱恩特的粉丝。

Hollub: Oh, I'll stop using that. But really it was hard for me to to learn how to communicate with investors, and how to be transparent without violating SEC rules and things like that. So just the language, just the communication was challenging. Earnings calls are probably the most difficult thing I do. Because I do enjoy talking to our shareholders sitting one on one with them, but to do it on an earnings call with analysts, all that is challenging. So I think that that part is important. What we do now, is our CEO candidates, we run them through the investor group and investor relations group. So we're not going to have a person take the CEO role that has not been in that investor relations group, and has actually had to work with the analysts and work with the shareholders. It's critically important. And so any candidate for us will have to have done that. I think it does two things. It not only helps you with the communications and understand them understand their models and all of that, but it makes you learn the minutiae of the company, all the details, you've got to know the details and you've got to know what's important to them, and how to communicate it so that then it makes it all the rest of it a lot easier for you. So that's, that's probably one of the biggest things. The other thing is how to work with with boards and in the fact that no matter what the experience level of your board is, they are your board and you have to treat them with the respect and the knowledge. Their most important role is to pick the right CEO and then to ensure that the CEO is sticking to the strategy or, or whatever strategy they've approved. You've got to make sure that if you come to a point when you're thinking that the strategy should be something different, better, you had better be well prepared to communicate it as soon as you can.

Hollub: 哦，我会停止使用那些比喻。但对我来说，学习如何与投资者沟通，如何在不违反SEC规则等情况下保持透明确实很困难。所以仅仅是语言，仅仅是沟通就很有挑战性。财报电话会议可能是我做的最困难的事情。因为我确实喜欢一对一地与股东交谈，但在有分析师参与的财报电话会议上这样做，所有这些都很有挑战性。所以我认为这部分很重要。我们现在的做法是，我们的CEO候选人，我们让他们通过投资者团队和投资者关系团队的培训。所以我们不会让一个没有在投资者关系团队工作过，没有实际与分析师和股东合作过的人担任CEO角色。这至关重要。因此，我们的任何候选人都必须经历过这些。我认为这做了两件事。它不仅帮助你进行沟通并理解他们的模型和所有这些，还让你学习公司的细节，所有的细节，你必须了解细节，你必须知道什么对他们重要，以及如何沟通，这样就能让其他所有事情变得容易得多。所以这可能是最重要的事情之一。另一件事是如何与董事会合作，无论你的董事会的经验水平如何，他们是你的董事会，你必须以尊重和了解对待他们。他们最重要的角色是选择合适的CEO，然后确保CEO坚持战略或他们批准的任何战略。你必须确保，如果你认为战略应该有所不同，更好，你最好做好充分准备，尽快沟通。

McGirt: Well, to your point, there's almost nobody that we've talked to over the last few years of the podcast who was ever prepared for the kinds of social stance that they would have to take, for example. It just wasn't in the common lexicon, it just wasn't in the DNA of anybody's organization. Now you were worrying, you mentioned childcare and families. We're talking about employee mental health. The CEO today and leaders today have to really be fluent in all of these human languages. How did you prepare for that? What stands do you take and how do you listen to your employees?

McGirt: 说到这一点，在过去几年的播客中，我们采访的几乎没有人曾为他们必须采取的各种社会立场做好准备。这在过去的常用词汇中根本不存在，也不在任何组织的DNA中。现在你担心的是，你提到了育儿和家庭。我们在谈论员工心理健康。今天的CEO和领导者必须真正精通所有这些人性化的语言。你是如何为此做准备的？你采取什么立场，以及你如何倾听员工的声音？

Hollub: The most shocking thing to me is again, when I took over in 2016, today is a lot different than 2016. Because when, when the George Floyd murder occurred, I had not ever gotten an email from any of our employees asking me to take a stand on anything external. Prior to that, well, I'd get emails and text messages from all parts of the organization, people who know they can communicate to me and that I'm fine with that. I want that communication. So from all levels of the organization, from the guys that are out pumping the wells in Midland to our PhDs that are doing research and either, you know, the the part of the business that was subsurface or low carbon. So I get a lot of information, but never had I gotten an email asking me to take a stand on that. So we did take a stand on that, and we took a stand when the senseless attacks on on the Asian community started, in a big way. I think it was the Atlanta incidents when we came out against that. So we don't take political stands about everything. But we do take stands when it's a violation of human rights. And now we've got even more issues to deal with as the world continues to change and and legislation and changing around women's rights.

Hollub: 对我来说最令人震惊的是，当我在2016年接任时，今天与2016年有很大不同。因为当乔治·弗洛伊德被谋杀事件发生时，我从未收到过任何员工的邮件，要求我对任何外部事件表态。在那之前，我会收到来自组织各个部分的电子邮件和短信，这些人知道他们可以与我沟通，我对此没有问题。我希望有这种沟通。所以从组织的各个层面，从在米德兰抽油的工人到我们做研究的博士，无论是地下部分还是低碳业务部分。所以我获得了很多信息，但从未收到过要求我对此表态的邮件。所以我们确实对此表明了立场，当对亚裔社区的无端攻击大规模开始时，我们也表明了立场。我想是在亚特兰大事件时我们站出来反对。所以我们不对所有事情都采取政治立场。但当涉及侵犯人权时，我们会表明立场。现在随着世界的不断变化，以及围绕女性权利的立法变化，我们有更多的问题需要处理。

Murray: Women's rights, you're talking about the right to abortion. Have you taken a position?

Murray: 女性权利，你是在谈论堕胎权吗？你采取了立场吗？

Hollub: I will say publicly women should have the right to choose.

Hollub: 我愿意公开表态，女性应该有选择的权利。

Murray: The question is what's the company's role in supporting you on that?

Murray: 问题是公司在支持你这一立场方面扮演什么角色？

Hollub: Yeah, and to me, there's such a fine line sometimes, and it's because we represent our owners, our shareholders. There, you just have to be really careful how you cross that line and where you might be edging up to that line. It's by far the most difficult thought process than to go through that and to figure out how and when you do you really lend your voice?

Hollub: 是的，对我来说，有时候界限非常微妙，这是因为我们代表我们的所有者，我们的股东。在这方面，你必须非常小心如何跨越那条线以及你可能在哪里接近那条线。这绝对是最困难的思考过程，要经历这些并弄清楚如何以及何时真正发出你的声音。

Murray: If you're okay with it, I'd like to end by going back to the climate challenge, because you've thought about this a lot. You know a lot about it. You've approached it with your engineers' mindset. Do you think Net Zero 2050 is a realistic goal?

Murray: 如果你不介意的话，我想以气候挑战作为结束，因为你对此思考了很多。你对此了解很多。你用工程师的思维方式来处理它。你认为2050年实现净零排放是一个现实的目标吗？

Hollub: I think it's a realistic goal for our company, because of what we're doing. So that direct air capture facility will enable us to extract enough CO2 out of the atmosphere to cover the carbon that we use to to get oil and gas out of the ground, which includes not just what we operate with, the electricity we use, but also offset the carbon that's used by the volume of production that we produce.

Hollub: 我认为这对我们公司来说是一个现实的目标，因为我们正在做的事情。那个直接空气捕捉设施将使我们能够从大气中提取足够的二氧化碳，以覆盖我们用于从地下获取石油和天然气的碳排放，这不仅包括我们运营使用的电力，还能抵消我们生产量所使用的碳排放。

Murray: By your customers. 

Murray: 通过你的客户。

Hollub: Yes. 

Hollub: 是的。

Murray: It's the scope. You can offset the airplane that's using your fuel.

Murray: 这就是范围。你可以抵消使用你的燃料的飞机排放。

Hollub: That's right. And it's because of that direct air capture and and other carbon capture that we can do that.

Hollub: 没错。正是因为那种直接空气捕捉和其他碳捕捉技术，我们才能做到这一点。

Murray: But you need to convince the other oil companies to do the same. That's what you're saying. If we're going to make 2050, all your colleagues…

Murray: 但你需要说服其他石油公司也这样做。这就是你所说的。如果我们要实现2050年的目标，你所有的同行...

Hollub: …and the rest of the world has to be supportive of us doing it. So it's important to take the time to understand it and support us doing it. Because if you'll support us doing it, then we can together help change the world.

Hollub: ...而且世界其他地方也必须支持我们这样做。所以花时间理解它并支持我们这样做很重要。因为如果你支持我们这样做，那么我们就可以一起帮助改变世界。

McGirt: I just heard the start of a great campaign. That's the next big swing right. That's it right there.

McGirt: 我刚刚听到了一个伟大运动的开始。这就是下一个大转变。就是这个。

Murray: Leadership Next is edited by Alexis Haut. It's written by me, Alan Murray, along with my amazing colleagues Ellen McGirt, Alexis Haut, and Megan Arnold. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Our executive producer is Megan Arnold. Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media. Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune's editorial team.

Murray: Leadership Next由Alexis Haut编辑。由我Alan Murray与我出色的同事Ellen McGirt、Alexis Haut和Megan Arnold共同撰写。我们的主题音乐由Jason Snell创作。我们的执行制片人是Megan Arnold。Leadership Next是Fortune Media的制作节目。Leadership Next的各集由Fortune的编辑团队制作。