2024-09-29 ACQUIRED.Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, Jensen Huang and Mark Zuckerberg

Here it is: the complete video of the most unbelievable night of Acquired’s nine-year life… our sold out live show at the Chase Center in San Francisco. We joked during the months (months!) of preparation leading up to this event that it was like planning a wedding for 6,000 Acquired fans, and the guest list included Jamie Dimon, Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, Jensen Huang and Mark Zuckerberg… no pressure! But thanks to our amazing partnership with J.P. Morgan Payments, together we were able to make something incredible. Tune in and enjoy the celebration!

在这里：这是 Acquired 九年历史中最不可思议之夜的完整视频……我们在旧金山 Chase Center 的售罄现场演出。在为这次活动准备的几个月（几个月！）中，我们开玩笑说这就像为 6,000 名 Acquired 粉丝策划一场婚礼，嘉宾名单包括 Jamie Dimon、Daniel Ek、Emily Chang、Jensen Huang 和 Mark Zuckerberg……没有压力！但感谢我们与摩根大通支付的惊人合作，我们一起创造了不可思议的东西。调频收看并享受这场庆祝活动吧！

Transcript: (disclaimer: may contain unintentionally confusing, inaccurate and/or amusing transcription errors)

文字记录：（免责声明：可能包含无意中令人困惑、不准确和/或有趣的转录错误）

David: I know this isn’t the best time to bring this up, but did you bring the thumb drive with the Who Got The Truth MP3 for the sound crew?

大卫：我知道现在不是提这个的最佳时机，但你有没有带上给音响团队的《谁得到了真相》MP3 的 U 盘？

Ben: No. Why would I bring a thumb…? I did email that. It’s probably three weeks ago though.

本：没有。我为什么要带一个 U 盘……？我确实发过邮件。大概是三周前。

David: Well there are 6000 people out there waiting to hear it.

大卫：外面有 6000 人等着听。

Ben: Look, the team is really great. I’m sure they’ll think of something.

本：看，这个团队真的很棒。我相信他们会想出办法的。

David: We didn’t need the thumb drive.

大卫：我们不需要 U 盘。

Ben: We didn’t need the thumb drive. Welcome to this episode of Acquired, the podcast about…

本：我们不需要 U 盘。欢迎收听本期的《Acquired》播客，关于…

David: Wow. This is unbelievable. Thank you all for coming. We have a very, very special guest and surprise to welcome us all here tonight, the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon.

大卫：哇。这真是难以置信。感谢大家的到来。今晚我们有一位非常非常特别的嘉宾和惊喜来欢迎大家，那就是摩根大通的首席执行官，杰米·戴蒙。

Jamie: Hello, Acquired listeners. Welcome to the Chase Center and to Acquired Live. I’m Jamie Dimon, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase. I’m happy to kick off the show tonight and welcome all of you to one of my favorite arenas.

杰米：你好，Acquired 的听众们。欢迎来到大通中心和 Acquired 现场。我是杰米·戴蒙，摩根大通的董事长兼首席执行官。我很高兴今晚能开启这个节目，欢迎你们来到我最喜欢的场馆之一。

It’s been a great partnership all year between JP Morgan Payments and Acquired, storytelling and educating about some of the greatest companies in the world. For many of them, just like many of you in the crowd, we’re thrilled to call you friends and partners of the firm. Sorry I couldn’t be there in person tonight, but I hope everyone enjoys the show. Ben and David, over to you.

今年，摩根大通支付与 Acquired 之间的合作非常成功，讲述并介绍了一些世界上最伟大的公司。对于他们中的许多人，就像在座的许多观众一样，我们很高兴能称你们为公司的朋友和合作伙伴。很遗憾今晚我不能亲自到场，但我希望大家享受这场演出。Ben 和 David，交给你们了。

Ben: Thanks, Jamie. Well, a special shout out and a huge thank you to JP Morgan and the whole payments team, especially Dustin Sedgwick, the CMO of JP Morgan Payments, long time listener, who’s been really the driving force behind this whole thing, and his truly world class marketing team—Hannah, Nick, Vinnie, Amy, and Carly.

本：谢谢你，Jamie。特别感谢并致以巨大的谢意给摩根大通和整个支付团队，尤其是摩根大通支付的首席营销官 Dustin Sedgwick，他是长期的听众，真正推动这一切的力量，以及他真正世界级的营销团队——Hannah、Nick、Vinnie、Amy 和 Carly。

David and I for the first time, really now understand what it is like to have a glimpse of what a real built-out team would look like and not just two guys in their basement. Thank you for an amazing partnership.

大卫和我第一次真正了解了一个完整团队的样子，而不仅仅是两个在地下室的家伙。感谢这次精彩的合作。

David: Ben and I did not put this on ourselves tonight. What are we doing tonight?

大卫：本和我今晚没有自己安排这个。我们今晚要做什么？

Ben: Well, as you all know, Mark Zuckerberg is in the house.

本：好吧，正如你们所知，马克·扎克伯格在这里。

David: Woo. 大卫：哇。

Ben: Tonight we’ll actually have three acts, not one. Mark will be our third act after intermission. But we got a lot of great segments in our first two acts here, and some more fun surprises sprinkled in the middle. David, what is the format? Is this an Acquired episode?

本：今晚我们实际上有三个节目，而不是一个。马克将在中场休息后作为我们的第三个节目。但在我们的前两个节目中有很多精彩的环节，中间还会有一些有趣的惊喜。大卫，格式是什么？这是一个 Acquired 的节目吗？

David: Well, amazingly, shockingly, we tell you all the time that when we make an episode, we sit in our houses, in our studios, we record all day for nine hours. We turn that nine hours into three or four or five hours that you all hear. We thought, yeah, that’s probably not going to play here, but you keep asking us, you keep emailing us, so we want to put this request, this question to bed once and for all here tonight. Here’s what you are missing in the full nine hours of an Acquired recording session.

David：好吧，令人惊讶的是，令人震惊的是，我们一直告诉你们，当我们制作一集节目时，我们坐在家里，在工作室里，录制整整九个小时。我们把那九个小时变成你们听到的三、四或五个小时。我们想，是的，这可能不适合这里，但你们一直在问我们，一直在给我们发邮件，所以我们想在今晚彻底解决这个请求，这个问题。以下是你们在完整的九小时《Acquired》录音过程中错过的内容。

Ben: I’ve been trying to do a better job getting Airflow in here while we’re recording, because I think I get dumber at the end of episodes, or at least I just get exhausted. I think part of it’s the lack of oxygen.

本：我一直在努力在我们录音时让空气流通更好一些，因为我觉得在节目的结尾我变得更迟钝，或者至少我只是感到筋疲力尽。我认为部分原因是缺氧。

David: It’s really hot in here, and we’ve been going for 5½ hours.

大卫：这里真的很热，我们已经进行了 5 个半小时。

Ben: Let me finish this thing, and then we will take a bathroom break.

本：让我把这件事做完，然后我们再去上厕所。

David: I have a similar thought. Pour some more champagne. Sorry about that. Hey, Blue Angels.

大卫：我也有类似的想法。再倒点香槟。抱歉。嘿，蓝天使。

Ben: Great. Only 9 minutes and 40 seconds of bullshitting before we actually started. It’s pretty good for us.

本：太好了。我们在真正开始之前只有 9 分 40 秒的废话。对我们来说已经很不错了。

David: It’s a new record.

大卫：这是一个新纪录。

Ben: Is this too in the weeds? Let me take a stab at making it more loosey goosey.

本：这是不是太深入细节了？让我试着把它弄得更随意一点。

David: I think I can simplify all this.

大卫：我想我可以简化这一切。

Ben: We got to advance the story more. The pacing’s too slow. Oh, this doesn’t make any sense.

本：我们得加快故事进展。节奏太慢了。哦，这没有任何意义。

David: Okay, great. We can cut all that then. Cut that. Just cut it. Let’s cut all that. Cut that.

大卫：好的，太好了。那我们就把这些都删掉。删掉。就删掉。我们把这些都删掉。删掉。

Ben: Skip it. 本：跳过它。

David: Skip it, yeah. Let’s skip it and keep moving. Okay, I think one of us has our timelines wrong. We’ve been so stop and start. Do you think we should just restart the whole thing?

大卫：跳过它，是的。让我们跳过它继续前进。好的，我想我们中有一个人的时间线搞错了。我们一直断断续续的。你觉得我们应该重新开始整个事情吗？

Ben: We’re 35–40 minutes into this episode and nothing has happened.

本：我们已经进入这一集 35-40 分钟了，但什么都没有发生。

David: I think I would actually feel better and more in the flow.

大卫：我想我实际上会感觉更好，更顺畅。

Ben: Because right now I’m like, what did we cover? What did we not?

本：因为现在我就像，我们讨论了什么？我们没有讨论什么？

David: I think what you’re saying is to replace all of what we did before.

大卫：我认为你的意思是要替换我们之前所做的一切。

Ben: I’m going to re-record at least the first part. Maybe that whole thing.

本：我打算重新录制至少第一部分。也许整个都重新录制。

David: I don’t recall exactly how we started though.

大卫：我不太记得我们是怎么开始的。

Ben: I don’t remember the last thing you said.

本：我不记得你最后说的话了。

David: I don’t either. 大卫：我也不。

Ben: I think I’ve been interrupting.

本：我想我一直在打扰。

David: No, I think it’s great. Please keep doing. I don’t find it annoying at all. The goal is to make the best stuff.

大卫：不，我觉得很好。请继续做。我一点也不觉得烦。目标是做出最好的东西。

Ben: I actually quite like how this is puzzling in.

本：我其实挺喜欢这种令人费解的感觉。

David: Hang on one second.

大卫：等一下。

Ben: You got to stop making that face.

本：你得停止做那个表情。

David: Oh, beef. What I making a face?

大卫：哦，牛肉。我为什么做鬼脸？

Ben: And take it without the… totally.

本：而且完全不带……

David: Totally. 大卫：完全同意。

Ben: Totally. 本：完全同意。

David: Totally, 大卫：完全同意，

Ben: Totally, totally. Go for it.

本：完全同意，去做吧。

David: Dude, it is so hard to keep all this information in our heads. I feel like I’m out of RAM. What’s going on? I just heard a beep on your end.

大卫：兄弟，把所有这些信息都记在脑子里太难了。我感觉我快没内存了。怎么回事？我刚听到你那边有个哔声。

Ben: Okay, well that wasn’t one of our best episodes.

本：好吧，那不是我们最好的一集。

David: That is how the sausage is made?

大卫：这就是香肠的制作过程吗？

Ben: I think that actually is a good way to end it.

本：我认为这实际上是一个很好的结束方式。

David: Are you done or do you have more?

大卫：你完成了吗，还是还有更多？

Ben: I’m done. 本：我完成了。

Thank you all for indulging us. I was not sure if that would play in an arena.

感谢大家的包容。我不确定这是否会在场馆中奏效。

David: This is what Steven has to deal with every month.

大卫：这就是史蒂文每个月必须处理的事情。

Ben: Obviously, not only are we not doing that. We literally can’t. There are just fire marshal issues. David, what are we doing?

本：显然，我们不仅没有这样做。我们根本做不到。只是有消防安全问题。大卫，我们在做什么？

David: Well tonight, we thought we are going to take the Acquired playbook, throw it out the window, and we are going to throw a party instead. It is a celebration of technology of the San Francisco Bay area—San Francisco, yeah—of some of the most important businesses of our time, and most importantly, it’s a celebration of you all. We say you all on the show. Usually you’re not here. You’re here.

大卫：今晚，我们决定把《Acquired》的剧本扔出窗外，改为举办一个派对。这是对旧金山湾区科技的庆祝——是的，旧金山——对我们这个时代一些最重要企业的庆祝，更重要的是，这是对你们所有人的庆祝。我们在节目中说你们所有人。通常你们不在这里。你们现在在这里。

Ben: Normally, we study the past, often the far past. Tonight, we’re going to look at the present. It’s a little un-Aquired, but once every 2½ years or however often we do a live show, we want to indulge. We’re going to indulge tonight.

本：通常，我们研究过去，往往是遥远的过去。今晚，我们要看看现在。这有点不符合惯例，但每隔两年半或无论我们多久做一次现场表演，我们都想放纵一下。今晚我们就要放纵一下。

David: Indeed, we are. To start, we wanted to spend a couple of minutes at the top of the show here in our first act just giving you all an update on the state of Acquired. It has been quite a year for us. You and I have lived a lot of life in one year. We both had kids, the Wall Street Journal wrote about us, and we’ve experienced some pretty amazing growth.

David：确实如此。首先，我们想在节目的第一部分花几分钟时间给大家更新一下 Acquired 的现状。这对我们来说是相当不平凡的一年。你我在一年中经历了很多生活。我们都有了孩子，《华尔街日报》写了关于我们的文章，我们也经历了一些相当惊人的增长。

Ben: David pitched this to me and I’m like, what? Are we going to stand up and give a keynote on the state of the union of Acquired? That doesn’t feel right. But a conversation would be great if it was the right person to have a conversation with. We were like, who is a big Acquired listener, gets what we’re all about, everyone in the audience is going to be like, oh yeah, that person’s one of us, and is the world expert on podcasting?

本：大卫向我提议这个，我当时就想，什么？我们要站起来做一个关于 Acquired 现状的主题演讲吗？这感觉不对。但如果是和合适的人进行对话，那会很棒。我们想，谁是 Acquired 的忠实听众，了解我们的一切，观众中的每个人都会觉得，哦对，那个人是我们中的一员，并且是播客领域的世界专家呢？

Fortunately for us and all of you tonight, we are here to welcome all the way from Stockholm, the CEO and founder of Spotify, Daniel Ek.

幸运的是，今晚我们和你们所有人都在这里，欢迎从斯德哥尔摩远道而来的 Spotify 首席执行官兼创始人，Daniel Ek。

Daniel: Wow. This is pretty insane, guys. I think this probably ought to be the biggest recording of a podcast in the world.

丹尼尔：哇。这真是太疯狂了，伙计们。我想这可能应该是世界上最大的一次播客录制。

Ben: It’s a little echoey studio.

本：这是一个有点回声的工作室。

Daniel: You guys should use this as the studio every time I think.

丹尼尔：我觉得你们每次都应该把这里当作工作室。

David: Well, you’ve been after us to do more video for years.

大卫：好吧，多年来你一直希望我们制作更多视频。

Daniel: That is true. 丹尼尔：那是真的。

David: Here you are. 大卫：给你。

Ben: This is going to be a video for sure.

本：这肯定会成为一个视频。

Daniel: All right, well love that. It’s really amazing for me to be here and just see this and all of your guys’ success. I remember listening to you guys as a fan (I think) starting in 2019 and seeing that we’re now five years later from a small base going to something like this. It’s pretty remarkable to see.

丹尼尔：好的，我很喜欢这个。对我来说，能在这里看到这一切以及你们的成功，真的很了不起。我记得我作为一个粉丝（我想）从 2019 年开始听你们的音乐，现在五年过去了，从一个小基地发展到现在这样。看到这一切真的很不寻常。

I don’t know about you guys, but I thought maybe to commemorate this moment it’d be pretty fun. I know you don’t want to talk about your success, so I thought maybe I could do that for you. Maybe we can have a look at some of the amazing stats and achievements you guys have accomplished.

我不知道你们怎么想，但我觉得也许纪念这一刻会很有趣。我知道你们不想谈论自己的成功，所以我想也许我可以为你们做这件事。也许我们可以看看你们取得的一些惊人数据和成就。

Ben: Well, thanks. I know you pulled some data. We pulled some data. This is the updated version up here of the classic Acquired chart that we’ve been showing, which basically shows from when we started in 2015, to the organic doubling year over year over year, all the way through today.

本：好的，谢谢。我知道你提取了一些数据。我们也提取了一些数据。这是我们一直展示的经典 Acquired 图表的更新版本，基本上显示了从我们 2015 年开始，到每年有机增长翻倍，一直到今天。

Basically, since we don’t market the show or we don’t do any paid marketing, the only way the show grows is we make an episode, someone tells their friend about it. On average, every listener tells one other listener every year, hey, you should listen, and that person sticks. That’s the whole thing.

基本上，由于我们不对节目进行市场推广，也不做任何付费营销，节目增长的唯一方式就是我们制作一期节目，然后有人告诉他们的朋友。平均来说，每位听众每年会告诉另一位听众，嘿，你应该听听，然后那个人就会留下来。这就是全部。

Daniel: Yeah, it is pretty remarkable. On Spotify alone, you guys have now done over five million hours and it’s tripled in the last year. Pretty remarkable, right? Yeah. Big round of applause.

丹尼尔：是的，这相当了不起。仅在 Spotify 上，你们现在已经完成了超过五百万小时，并且在去年翻了三倍。相当了不起，对吧？是的。热烈的掌声。

David: We did the math, or Ben did the math as he usually does. I believe that is over 400 years of Acquired. We feel like it was 400 years making the episodes in the last year, but that was listened to in the past year.

大卫：我们做了计算，或者说本做了计算，就像他通常做的那样。我相信这超过了 400 年的《Acquired》。我们感觉就像是在过去一年制作了 400 年的剧集，但那是在过去一年中被收听的。

Daniel: Is the Nintendo one the longest one you guys have done?

丹尼尔：任天堂的那个是你们做过的最长的吗？

Ben: I think Microsoft Volume II was our—

本：我认为微软第二卷是我们的——

David: Longest single episode.

大卫：最长的单集。

Ben: But thank you for pulling this. The way this came to be is we asked Daniel, hey you have access to data that all podcasters dream of. What is the most interesting insight you can pull out of it? The thing that’s the craziest to me about this chart is that even though Acquired here’s how many downloads an episode gets, it isn’t celebrity status. It’s not the craziest biggest in the world.

本：但还是要感谢你拉出了这个。事情的经过是这样的，我们问了 Daniel，嘿，你有所有播客都梦寐以求的数据访问权限。你能从中提取出最有趣的见解是什么？对我来说，这张图表最疯狂的地方在于，即使 Acquired 的每集下载量是这样的，它也不是名人级别。它不是世界上最疯狂最大的。

Because of the volume of our episodes, we all spend a lot of time together. Thank you for lending us your ears for all of those moments because that’s what that chart is to me, is all the time we spend together.

由于我们剧集的数量，我们都花了很多时间在一起。感谢你在所有这些时刻倾听我们的声音，因为对我来说，那张图表就是我们一起度过的所有时间。

Daniel: Yeah, but what’s really cool for me too is just seeing the fandom of the show. One thing is obviously seeing the total numbers, but also seeing the fandoms. You guys added more than 250,000 followers, and that tripled last year too. It’s over 250,000 followers on Spotify alone now on the Acquired show, which again, is pretty remarkable to see that growth.

Daniel：是的，但对我来说真正酷的是看到这个节目的粉丝群。一方面是显然看到总数，但也看到粉丝群。你们增加了超过 25 万名粉丝，去年也增长了三倍。现在仅在 Spotify 上的 Acquired 节目就有超过 25 万名粉丝，这种增长确实相当显著。

Ben: I’m like a reformed venture capitalist, so I can’t help but point out things on charts. There are two things that are interesting about that chart. One is we’ve had ridiculous subscriber growth on Spotify. You guys entering the industry has created a ton of net new audiences, of people who did not listen to podcasters before. The second thing is if, if you pull the chart back up again, you can see the Wall Street Journal article in May in that insane yeah.

本：我就像一个改过自新的风险投资家，所以我忍不住要在图表上指出一些事情。关于那张图表，有两件事很有趣。首先是我们在 Spotify 上的订阅用户增长非常惊人。你们进入这个行业创造了大量全新的受众，这些人以前并不听播客。第二件事是，如果你再把图表调出来，你可以看到五月份《华尔街日报》的那篇文章，真是疯狂。

Daniel: Exponential growth.

丹尼尔：指数增长。

David: I know we keep talking about it, but this literally has never happened in the decade of Acquired where a single event caused a kink in the chart that we see. You guys see it, it’s crazy.

大卫：我知道我们一直在谈论这个，但在 Acquired 的十年中，从未发生过单一事件在我们看到的图表中造成扭曲。你们看到它了，这太疯狂了。

Daniel: Well, it’s word of mouth in a new way. But the other part that was really cool to me as I was looking through the data, I expected this to be an English language thing–only, maybe the US, maybe UK, that kind of thing. But you guys have truly grown worldwide.

丹尼尔：嗯，这是一种新的口碑传播方式。但令我感到非常酷的另一部分是，当我查看数据时，我本以为这只是一个英语语言的事情——可能仅限于美国，也许是英国，类似这样的地方。但你们确实在全球范围内发展壮大了。

Look at some of this stuff. You have Mexico growing five times. Hong Kong, Israel, Singapore, Acquired is global. It’s amazing to see here in San Francisco that we got 6000 people in one place. But I’m pretty sure you guys should take this on the road and we’ll see if we can make it in other places too.

看看这些东西。墨西哥增长了五倍。香港、以色列、新加坡，全球收购。这在旧金山看到真是太棒了，我们在一个地方聚集了 6000 人。但我很确定你们应该把这个带到其他地方，我们看看能否在其他地方也做到。

Ben: When you see the whole arc of the show tonight, I think you’ll say, ah, yeah. You can’t take that on the road.

本：当你看到今晚节目的整个弧线时，我想你会说，啊，是的。你不能把它带上路。

Daniel: Could be. Well it’s maybe a timing question. You guys should be the new rock stars that tour around. That would be the great thing to do.

丹尼尔：可能吧。嗯，这也许是个时间问题。你们应该成为巡演的新摇滚明星。那将是件很棒的事情。

I want to really maybe take the moment here and ask you guys how all of this happened. By way of context, just to put this in perspective, in 2019, when we got into podcast, the world around podcast listening and Spotify, there were a few million people listening to this. You mentioned this, but our goal was to broaden this whole medium.

我想在这里真正地抓住这个时刻，问问你们这一切是如何发生的。作为背景说明，为了让大家了解情况，2019 年，当我们进入播客领域时，围绕播客收听和 Spotify 的世界，只有几百万人在收听。你提到过这一点，但我们的目标是扩大整个媒介。

Today, there are over 150 million people listening to podcasts on Spotify. Obviously, your show is a huge success and something that attracts people to the medium, because it’s both pretty broad these days but also very, very deep. What do you think contributed to that success?

今天，有超过 1.5 亿人在 Spotify 上收听播客。显然，你的节目非常成功，并且吸引了人们使用这种媒介，因为它如今既非常广泛又非常深入。你认为是什么促成了这种成功？

David: Well, you guys entering the industry for sure. But I think you hit on it with broad. When Ben and I started this, we used to talk about what our TAM was. We were venture capitalists. We’re like, what’s the TAM for Acquired? Not that we even thought about it as a business or product.

David：嗯，你们肯定要进入这个行业。但我认为你们提到的范围很广。当本和我开始这个项目时，我们常常讨论我们的 TAM 是什么。我们是风险投资家。我们会想，Acquired 的 TAM 是什么？尽管我们甚至没有把它当作一个业务或产品来考虑。

We were like, I don’t know. What’s the population of students in business schools out there? Maybe that’s our TAM. Then we were like, well, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a little bigger than that. Maybe it’s everybody who ever wanted to go to business school. Okay, what’s that cap out? A million people, maybe? A million felt like our TAM.

我们当时就像，我不知道。那边商学院的学生人数是多少？也许那是我们的 TAM。然后我们又想，好吧，我不知道。也许比那稍微大一点。也许是所有曾经想去商学院的人。好吧，那上限是多少？一百万人，也许？一百万感觉像是我们的 TAM。

What’s happened to us—I’m curious, I think you guys have probably seen the same thing—is that even though we think we’re super nerds and we tell these very esoteric stories, they’re just great stories and people of all types want to listen to them.

发生在我们身上的事情——我很好奇，我想你们可能也看到了同样的事情——即使我们认为自己是超级书呆子，并讲述这些非常深奥的故事，它们仍然是很棒的故事，各种类型的人都想听。

Ben: And the growth of the medium. We just have this ridiculous tailwind where we got lucky and picked right in 2015. We stayed with it, we got better at the craft. But it turns out people are super interested thanks to all the wireless headphones that exist now. It’s just this weird cultural norm that’s come into fruition that it’s okay to spend hours and hours and hours with someone in your ears talking about something that is interesting to them. I just don’t actually think that was a thing in the early 2010s.

本：以及媒介的增长。我们只是有这个荒谬的顺风，我们在 2015 年幸运地做出了正确的选择。我们坚持下来了，我们在这项技艺上变得更好。但事实证明，由于现在存在的所有无线耳机，人们对此非常感兴趣。这只是一个奇怪的文化规范，已经实现了，可以花上好几个小时让某人在你耳边谈论他们感兴趣的事情。我只是不认为这在 2010 年代初期是件事。

Daniel: One of the things you obviously have done is added video to the format. This is my plug of hopefully getting you guys to finally add video to Spotify as well. What do you think is next for the show when it comes to that? What do you see the big innovation of Acquired will be in the future?

丹尼尔：显然你们做的一件事是将视频添加到格式中。这是我希望你们最终也能在 Spotify 上添加视频的一个建议。你认为在这方面节目接下来会有什么发展？你认为 Acquired 的重大创新在未来会是什么？

Ben: I think our total addressable market is at least 10 times bigger than it currently is today with our exact same product if we just keep doing the work and making the product better and shipping one episode a month. The question is how much more can we do without killing the golden goose? Actually, can I turn this back on you? You have massively expanded what Spotify does since the original vision.

本：我认为，如果我们继续努力改进产品并每月发布一个版本，我们的总可服务市场至少是目前的十倍。问题是，我们还能做多少而不杀死下金蛋的鹅？实际上，我能把这个问题抛给你吗？自从最初的愿景以来，你已经大幅扩展了 Spotify 的功能。

David: The original vision was you were music on Facebook.

大卫：最初的愿景是你在 Facebook 上的音乐。

Ben: Yeah. How should founders think about the only reason that you are allowed to exist is because you’re really good at this one core thing, but you should do other things?

本：是的。创始人应该如何看待你被允许存在的唯一原因是因为你在这一核心领域非常出色，但你应该做其他事情呢？

Daniel: Well, I think it starts with your audience and knowing your audience. For instance, we launched audiobooks about a year ago. But the untold story about that audiobooks launch is what happened in Germany is all the record companies started uploading audiobooks to the service. They started hacking the system for all these other things. When they ran out of that, they actually started uploading podcasts.

Daniel：嗯，我认为这要从你的受众开始，了解你的受众。例如，我们大约一年前推出了有声书。但关于那次有声书发布的未被讲述的故事是，在德国发生的事情是所有唱片公司开始将有声书上传到服务中。他们开始破解系统来上传所有这些其他内容。当他们用完这些后，他们实际上开始上传播客。

Podcasts turned out to be the easier medium for us to start with, but eventually we added audiobooks too. I think most amazing things tend to start with people suggesting things or maybe even doing things. It’d be interesting to figure out what people are doing in and around Acquired already, and that will probably be your adjacency.

播客对我们来说是一个更容易开始的媒介，但最终我们也增加了有声书。我认为大多数令人惊叹的事情往往始于人们提出建议或甚至开始行动。弄清楚人们在 Acquired 内外已经在做什么会很有趣，那可能就是你的邻近领域。

David: I think the other video—Ben and I talk a lot; we’ll talk more about video throughout the evening here—we’ve just always been of the belief of nobody wants to sit and watch us in our studios as talking heads going yak-yak-yak, but we’ve started to ask the question of, for certain companies we cover, is there a rich visual tapestry that we could do at the same level, that we try and create an audio tapestry?

大卫：我认为另一个视频——本和我经常谈论；今晚我们会更多地谈论视频——我们一直相信没有人愿意坐着看我们在工作室里像说话的头一样喋喋不休，但我们开始问一个问题，对于我们报道的某些公司，是否有丰富的视觉画面可以达到我们试图创造的音频画面的同一水平？

Ben: It’s an absolute crime that we did four hours on the entire multi-hundred year history of Hermes, and it was just audio.

本：我们花了四个小时讲述爱马仕几百年的整个历史，而这只是音频，这简直是犯罪。

Daniel: But it was an amazing show though, right?

丹尼尔：但那真是个精彩的表演，对吧？

Ben: Thank you. But audio is this magic thing where—we’re going to end up doing more video—I’m going to drag my feet kicking and screaming all the way there because I feel very passionately that the reason that the caliber of person in this room with all the busy things that you have in your life, the reason that you’re open to spending all this time with us is because we don’t take your full undivided attention.

本：谢谢。但是音频是一个神奇的东西——我们最终会做更多的视频——我会一路拖拖拉拉地去做，因为我非常热衷于认为，这个房间里有这么多忙碌事情的人的水平，您愿意花这么多时间与我们在一起的原因是因为我们不需要您全神贯注。

You can run, you can mow the lawn, you can drive, you can everything that everyone does while they listen to Acquired. I remain unconvinced that we would work as a four hour video product.

你可以跑步，你可以修剪草坪，你可以开车，你可以在听《Acquired》时做所有其他人做的事情。我仍然不相信我们会作为一个四小时的视频产品而有效。

Daniel: I don’t know, to be honest. I think this is probably the biggest thing that surprised me is that the world just keeps evolving constantly. You talked about video. On Spotify, it’s been a huge growth thing. I would’ve said to you as well, people probably mostly why would you want to watch any video, but I think younger consumers, especially, don’t know what the difference is. They just want to feel a closer presence to the person.

丹尼尔：老实说，我不知道。我认为这可能是让我感到最惊讶的事情，世界一直在不断发展。你提到了视频。在 Spotify 上，这是一件增长巨大的事情。我本来也会对你说，人们可能大多会问为什么你想看任何视频，但我认为尤其是年轻消费者，不知道有什么区别。他们只是想感受到与那个人更亲近的存在。

We saw it already with the bloopers. It’s like, this is fun what you guys are doing, and people have a relationship with you guys too, hence why so many people are showing up here tonight. I think video is just a way to express that, whether or not they’re watching the full four hours or whether they’re diving in and out over a particular type of segment. I think just giving the consumer the choice is one of the big things. That’s what we’re leaning into as well, is just allowing the creator and the consumer to more directly interact in more novel ways.

我们已经在花絮中看到了。这就像，你们在做的事情很有趣，人们也和你们有联系，这就是为什么今晚有这么多人来这里。我认为视频只是表达这种关系的一种方式，无论他们是否在观看完整的四小时，还是在某个特定类型的片段中进进出出。我认为给消费者选择权是其中一个重要的方面。这也是我们所倾向的，就是让创作者和消费者以更新颖的方式更直接地互动。

David: It’s funny. Your question was what’s next for Acquired? We’re going to do a normal episode after tonight. That normal episode probably will focus on a Menlo Park–based technology company. One of the lessons that we’re already starting to learn from that—

大卫：这很有趣。你的问题是 Acquired 的下一步是什么？今晚之后我们会做一个常规的节目。那个常规节目可能会关注一家位于门洛帕克的科技公司。我们已经开始从中学到的一个教训是——

Ben: Spoilers. What are you… We can’t take that back now. This is live.

本：剧透。你在做什么……我们现在不能收回了。这是直播。

David: This is live. It’s just not holding the current state of things and vision of what you are too tightly. You’ve learned a lot from Mark over the years. You all have been very close. Spotify started on Facebook. And here you are, you’re the biggest podcasting platform in the world. You didn’t hold onto that vision too tightly.

大卫：这是直播。只是不要过于紧抓当前的状态和你对事物的看法。多年来你从马克那里学到了很多。你们一直很亲近。Spotify 是在 Facebook 上开始的。现在你是世界上最大的播客平台。你没有过于紧抓那个愿景。

Ben: Can I turn that into a question?

本：我可以把那变成一个问题吗？

David: Please. I wanted to leave you some space before we asked the question.

大卫：请。我想在我们提问之前给你留点空间。

Ben: I appreciate that. That’s what great partnership is all about. David and I have one way of growing, which is to make a good episode and hope people tell their friends. Do you remember in the early days of Spotify when you figured out, oh, Facebook is going to be this unbelievable channel for us?

本：我很感激。这就是伟大合作伙伴的意义所在。David 和我有一种成长方式，那就是制作一个好的节目，并希望人们告诉他们的朋友。你还记得在 Spotify 的早期，当你意识到，哦，Facebook 将成为我们一个难以置信的渠道吗？

Daniel: Yeah. I think it starts like so many other things. I think Mark and I just struck this friendship. The little told story is, if I remember this correctly, I think Mark, even pre-Facebook, was trying to do a music startup. He was like, yeah, this feels like a difficult thing.

丹尼尔：是的。我认为这就像许多其他事情的开始。我想马克和我只是建立了这种友谊。鲜为人知的故事是，如果我没记错的话，我想马克甚至在 Facebook 之前就试图做一个音乐创业。他觉得这是一件困难的事情。

Ben: Wirehog? 本：Wirehog？

Daniel:. Exactly, I think he’s like, I think pretty much every great entrepreneur in the valley tried to do a music startup. He was definitely passionate about it. Then his idea obviously was a social music product. He and I started talking about it. In the beginning, he wanted Spotify to be more social. I said, well, I don’t know that that’s—

丹尼尔：确实，我认为他就像，我认为几乎每个硅谷的伟大企业家都尝试过做一个音乐初创公司。他对这件事绝对充满热情。然后他的想法显然是一个社交音乐产品。他和我开始讨论这个。在一开始，他希望 Spotify 更具社交性。我说，好吧，我不知道那是否是——

Ben: Do you remember how you got introduced? Because Spotify was not like Spotify the way it is today, a pillar of the world.

本：你还记得你是怎么被介绍的吗？因为那时候的 Spotify 并不像今天这样，成为世界的支柱。

Daniel: I got introduced to Mark through Sean Parker. Sean said to Zuck, like, hey, you got to meet this entrepreneur from Sweden. I remember Zuck at the time was living in a very small house and we went for a barbecue at his house. This is probably, I don’t know, 2008 or 2009, one of those things. Then we struck a friendship and we started jamming on various ideas around how to make music more social.

丹尼尔：我通过肖恩·帕克认识了马克。肖恩对扎克说，嘿，你得见见这个来自瑞典的企业家。我记得当时扎克住在一个非常小的房子里，我们去他家烧烤。这大概是，我不知道，2008 年或 2009 年，类似的事情。然后我们建立了友谊，并开始围绕如何让音乐更具社交性进行各种想法的交流。

Ben: And you weren’t even live in the US yet, I don’t think, or you were just—

本：而且我想你当时还没有在美国生活，或者你刚刚——

Daniel: This secret of Spotify was we seeded one account at a time to get a bunch of influencers to like it. I think Sean, in particular, used it as a social currency, so everyone came to him to try to get—

丹尼尔：Spotify 的秘密是我们一次播种一个账户，让一群有影响力的人喜欢它。我认为特别是肖恩把它当作一种社交货币，所以每个人都来找他试图获得——

David: Oh yeah, all the invites. The currency of the Spotify invites.

大卫：哦，是的，所有的邀请。Spotify 邀请的货币。

Daniel: Yeah. It was a big, big thing for quite a few years before we launched where it was the secret thing if you were in the club or if you weren’t. Anyway, he got Mark on it, and I think Mark wrote this status update, like Spotify is so good. Then everyone’s like, how did you get this? This was the main thing. When can I get it? How can I do it?

丹尼尔：是的。在我们推出之前的好几年里，这一直是个大事，如果你在俱乐部里或者不在的话，这都是个秘密。无论如何，他让马克参与其中，我想马克写了这样一个状态更新，比如 Spotify 太棒了。然后每个人都在问，你是怎么得到这个的？这就是主要的问题。我什么时候能得到它？我该怎么做？

Then we started jamming around what a social music product ought to be. We had this idea like with ICQ at the time where you had these status updates. Wouldn’t it be cool to be able to check out what your friends were listening to? We got to work together, built that product, and coincided it with the Spotify US launch.

然后我们开始围绕社交音乐产品应该是什么进行头脑风暴。我们有一个想法，就像当时的 ICQ，你可以看到这些状态更新。能查看你的朋友在听什么不是很酷吗？我们一起努力，构建了那个产品，并与 Spotify 在美国的发布同时推出。

Ben: And this was when the newsfeed was really young. You’d be scrolling through your newsfeed and it would be giving these status updates of what your friends were listening to piped in directly from Spotify.

本：那时候新闻推送还很年轻。你会滚动浏览你的新闻推送，它会直接从 Spotify 提供你朋友正在听的状态更新。

Daniel: Exactly. You could see all your friends. It actually still exists in the Spotify product on the desktop. You can see what your friends are listening to in real time. It’s one of our more popular legacy features that’s been around now for 13 years or so.

Daniel：没错。你可以看到你所有的朋友。实际上，它仍然存在于桌面版的 Spotify 产品中。你可以实时看到你的朋友在听什么。这是我们更受欢迎的传统功能之一，已经存在大约 13 年了。

Ben: It was the right sidebar, but I feel like I haven’t seen it in a while.

本：是右侧边栏，但我感觉好久没见过了。

Daniel: It’s still there.

丹尼尔：它还在那里。

Ben: Okay. But this gets at the point of social music listening was this core insight that you had. Mark was on board to build it together. He got a lot out of it, too, but let you use Facebook to distribute it. And yet everyone here who’s a Spotify customer today, when I think of Spotify, I think, oh, that’s like the easy way to access music, podcasts, and now audio books. But I don’t think, oh, it's social listening. At what point did you let go of that precious idea and say maybe social is important but not that important?

本：好的。但这涉及到社交音乐聆听的核心洞察，这是你们的一个重要发现。马克也参与进来一起构建这个项目。他也从中获得了很多，但让你使用 Facebook 来分发它。然而，今天在座的每一位 Spotify 用户，当我想到 Spotify 时，我会想，哦，那是访问音乐、播客和现在有声书的简单方式。但我不会想，哦，那是社交聆听。你是在什么时候放弃了这个珍贵的想法，并说也许社交很重要，但没有那么重要？

Daniel: Well, I still think social is hugely important. For instance, we have a product now called Jam, which allows you to be with your friends and actually alter what you’re listening to at the same time. It’s growing incredibly rapidly right now all over the world. It’s something that I think very much is a social product.

丹尼尔：嗯，我仍然认为社交非常重要。例如，我们现在有一个名为 Jam 的产品，它允许你和朋友一起实时更改你正在听的内容。它目前在全球范围内增长非常迅速。我认为这非常是一个社交产品。

But while I still think music is very social, I think what we got wrong in the product was this notion that just seeing what all of your friends are listening to may not be the right social product. But if you instead say, I want to work together with my friends and I want to have a shared listening, whether we’re in the same place or not, that turns out to be a pretty amazing thing.

但尽管我仍然认为音乐是非常社交的，我认为我们在产品中搞错的地方是这种观念，即仅仅看到你所有的朋友在听什么可能不是正确的社交产品。但如果你说，我想和我的朋友一起合作，我想要有一个共享的聆听体验，无论我们是否在同一个地方，这结果是相当惊人的。

You see people do it at parties where you can literally join someone’s jam, and you can all queue up songs together. Instead of taking my phone or your phone, we could all be working together on something.

你会看到人们在派对上这样做，你可以直接加入某人的音乐会，并且大家可以一起排队播放歌曲。我们不需要拿我的手机或你的手机，而是可以一起合作。

But what we saw during the pandemic, and that’s where Jam started, was we started seeing that people were using this to stay connected as well by having this shared consistent music listening where we’re all listening to the same thing at the same time, even though we were apart.

但在疫情期间，我们看到的情况，也是 Jam 开始的地方，是我们开始看到人们通过这种共享一致的音乐聆听来保持联系，即使我们分开了，我们也在同时听同样的东西。

Ben: It’s like the best of Linear TV brought to music.

本：这就像将线性电视的最佳体验带到了音乐中。

Daniel: Yeah. I think we’re still definitely playing with the social concepts and trying to get that right. But I think Facebook moved off of this presence-based social aspect for all things. It wasn’t just music, actually. People were doing it for games back then too, so it was like I'd created another Farmville.

Daniel：是的。我认为我们仍然在尝试社交概念，并努力做到正确。但我认为 Facebook 已经不再关注这种基于存在的社交方面了，不仅仅是音乐。那时候人们也在为游戏这样做，所以就像我创建了另一个 Farmville。

David: We remember that era.

大卫：我们记得那个时代。

Ben: What was it? It was like north of 10% of Facebook’s revenue at IPO was from…

本：那是什么？好像在 Facebook 上市时，超过 10% 的收入来自于……

David: Zynga, yeah. This is all fun history. I’m curious though, we’re going to talk to Mark later tonight.

大卫：Zynga，是的。这都是有趣的历史。不过我很好奇，我们今晚晚些时候会和马克谈谈。

Ben: Are you doing research live on stage?

本：你是在舞台上进行现场研究吗？

David: Definitely. You’ve had a pretty close relationship for 15-plus years as fellow founders in the trenches. What have you taken from him that you’ve brought into Spotify and how you run the company?

大卫：当然。作为共同创始人，你们在艰难环境中已经有超过 15 年的密切关系。你从他那里学到了什么，并将其带入 Spotify 以及你如何管理公司？

Daniel: Many things, and I’ve learned so much from him and the rest of the team at Meta as well. But I think specifically from him, he’s probably the best learner I’ve ever seen. You can have a conversation with him about a topic he may not know very much about, and then the next time he would know more than I would say most experts about the subject.

丹尼尔：很多事情，我从他和 Meta 的其他团队成员那里学到了很多。但我认为特别是从他那里，他可能是我见过的最好的学习者。你可以和他谈论一个他可能不太了解的话题，然后下次他就会比大多数专家更了解这个主题。

It’s really remarkable just how tenacious he is about learning and staying curious about things. That’s definitely been a super inspiring thing for me. I think that this shines through with how he runs the company too. He has a very clear idea, but he also takes a lot of feedback and iterates on that.

他对学习和保持好奇心的执着真是令人惊叹。这对我来说绝对是一个非常鼓舞人心的事情。我认为这也体现在他管理公司的方式上。他有一个非常清晰的想法，但他也会接受很多反馈并在此基础上进行迭代。

One of the cool things for me has been seeing how he runs meetings. For instance, I like having relatively small meetings with people. Mark, the average meeting he has is 15–20 people in the room. How you make a product review or discussion productive with 15 and 20 people still gets people to be heard, he’s very, very good at that stuff. Those are just a few of the things that I’ve learned, which has helped me as a leader as well.

对我来说，看到他如何主持会议是一件很酷的事情。例如，我喜欢和相对较少的人开会。马克，他的平均会议人数是 15 到 20 人。如何在 15 到 20 人的情况下进行产品评审或讨论并让每个人都能发表意见，他在这方面非常非常擅长。这些只是我学到的一些东西，也帮助我成为一名领导者。

Ben: Maybe this is a little bit more pointed. You are a kind person, you are a soft-spoken person, but you are a fierce competitor.

本：也许这有点尖锐。你是一个善良的人，你是一个说话温和的人，但你是一个激烈的竞争者。

David: Okay. We haven’t told you this when we interviewed you 18–24 months-ish ago in Stockholm. I’d never been to Sweden before. I don’t think you had either. We left, we thought what a lovely country, what lovely people. Daniel is the most generous person we could imagine, you’re here tonight, and that guy is a fierce competitor. And there is a reason why he has built Spotify.

大卫：好的。我们在 18 到 24 个月前在斯德哥尔摩面试你的时候没有告诉你这一点。我以前从未去过瑞典。我想你也没有。我们离开时，觉得这是一个多么可爱的国家，多么可爱的人。丹尼尔是我们能想象到的最慷慨的人，你今晚在这里，而那个人是一个激烈的竞争者。他之所以能建立 Spotify 是有原因的。

Ben: And very strategic. I think you see the chess board. Mark is like that too. Do you feel like your relationship amplifies each other?

本：而且非常有策略。我觉得你看到了棋盘。马克也是这样。你觉得你们的关系相互促进吗？

Daniel: Well, the rule I have with Mark is I don’t try to go into a competition with him because I know it’ll end badly for both of us. As you know, Mark likes sports. One of the things I don’t do with Mark is play sports for exactly this reason.

丹尼尔：嗯，我和马克的规则是我不和他竞争，因为我知道这对我们俩来说都会以糟糕的结局收场。如你所知，马克喜欢运动。出于这个原因，我和马克不做的一件事就是一起运动。

What was the last time he tore his ACL with someone rather than giving up? I feel like it will end pretty badly. I like playing when I know I’ll win, so I think it’s a pretty good thing to not do that.

他上次撕裂 ACL 而不是放弃是什么时候？我觉得这会以相当糟糕的方式结束。我喜欢在知道会赢的时候玩，所以我认为不这样做是件好事。

Ben: If I were to characterize why Spotify worked, it feels like there’s an incredible amount of tenacity and a willingness to run out of a problem that a lot of people had tried and failed at before. But there is also this, you abide your time, you wait for the opening, then you figure out a game you know that you can win, and then you go execute in that game.

本：如果我要描述为什么 Spotify 能成功，我觉得这源于一种惊人的毅力和解决问题的意愿，而这个问题是许多人之前尝试过但失败了的。但也有这样的情况，你耐心等待时机，等到机会出现，然后找出一个你知道能赢的游戏，然后在这个游戏中执行。

Daniel: That’s pretty much spot on, to be honest. One of the things we talk about a lot that I don’t say that much, but Gustav, who’s backstage here, who’s our product officer and CTO, we say talk is cheap. Most people talk about execution and speed of execution. Let’s move, let’s go. We actually spend a lot of time just discussing and talking. The internal saying that Spotify is talk is cheap because we want to be really deliberate about what it is we’re doing and how we’re doing it.

丹尼尔：说实话，这几乎完全正确。我们经常谈论的一件事，我不常说，但在后台的古斯塔夫，他是我们的产品官和首席技术官，我们说空谈无用。大多数人谈论的是执行和执行速度。让我们行动起来，走吧。实际上，我们花了很多时间只是讨论和交谈。Spotify 内部的说法是空谈无用，因为我们想非常慎重地考虑我们在做什么以及我们如何去做。

Ben: You mean that as a virtue, like talk is cheap, so let’s talk a lot because it’s inexpensive to waste those resources.

本：你的意思是这是一种美德，比如说话是廉价的，所以让我们多说，因为浪费这些资源成本不高。

Daniel: Exactly right. It’s more expensive to build than most people think. So we actually spend a lot of time discussing, and people get really confused when they enter our culture. They’re like, but why don’t we just execute? We’re still sitting and debating, game theorizing how this will play out, and getting all the things working in a certain way.

丹尼尔：完全正确。建造的成本比大多数人想象的要高。所以我们实际上花了很多时间在讨论上，人们进入我们的文化时会感到非常困惑。他们会想，为什么我们不直接执行呢？我们仍然在坐着辩论，进行博弈论分析，思考这将如何发展，并以某种方式让所有事情运作。

We have our ways of doing that now that we’ve codified across the company, which I think is pretty unique at this point. But a part of that is also, so to set the stage, is because we had to. Remember, everything, unlike many other products, when you’re building a company, you can iterate and do stuff. We had to get the entire industry with us.

我们现在已经在整个公司进行了规范化，这使得我们的做法在这一点上相当独特。但这也是因为我们不得不这样做。请记住，与许多其他产品不同，当你在建立一家公司时，你可以进行迭代和操作。我们必须让整个行业与我们同行。

If we wanted to do something, we had to convince a bunch of people that it was the right thing to do. In many cases, even making relatively simple changes could take one or two years for us to get licensed. So you better be sure that you’re right when you’re doing it.

如果我们想做某件事，我们必须说服一群人相信这是正确的事情。在很多情况下，即使是进行相对简单的更改，也可能需要一到两年才能获得许可。所以在你做这件事的时候，最好确保你是对的。

This has now become a thing in how we’re doing stuff. We’re probably not going to be the fastest as in moving fast and breaking things. But we are going to be very deliberate and we’re probably going to be more right when we actually do something.

这已经成为我们做事的一种方式。我们可能不会像“快速行动，打破常规”那样快。但我们会非常慎重，当我们真正做某事时，我们可能会更正确。

Ben: You’re like the anti-fill fast, the anti-move fast and break things, the anti-ship and iterate.

本：你就像是反快速填充，反快速行动和打破常规，反快速发布和迭代。

Daniel: Well, I’d like to hope we can also ship and iterate, but yeah. We won’t be the fastest, no.

丹尼尔：嗯，我希望我们也能发布和迭代，但对，我们不会是最快的，不。

David: Which is funny, coming back to podcasting. You didn’t enter the business until 2019, I assume you were thinking about it for a long time after that. I’m sure you know. When did you become the market leader in podcasting?

大卫：有趣的是，回到播客行业。你直到 2019 年才进入这个行业，我想你在那之后很长一段时间都在考虑这件事。我相信你知道。你什么时候成为播客市场的领导者的？

Daniel: Oh wow. I think it depends on which markets you’re looking at. Pretty much it started happening in quite a few markets already, 2020 and 2021. In 2022 we were pretty much the market leader in most markets around the world.

丹尼尔：哦，哇。我认为这取决于你关注的是哪些市场。实际上，这已经在相当多的市场中开始发生了，2020 年和 2021 年。在 2022 年，我们几乎在全球大多数市场中都是市场领导者。

David: So three years. 大卫：所以三年。

Daniel: Yeah. 丹尼尔：是的。

David: From launch? 大卫：从发布开始？

Daniel: Why? 丹尼尔：为什么？

David: Yeah, why? That’s the question. And did you expect that it would be that fast, given that you were so methodical and working so long to launch it?

大卫：是啊，为什么？这就是问题所在。考虑到你是如此有条不紊并且花了这么长时间才推出它，你是否预料到会这么快？

Daniel: We don’t always know how fast this will be, but I think we had a pretty good sense that we could iterate and improve our way, and help climb from the mountain we were on when we saw this initial traction.

丹尼尔：我们并不总是知道这会有多快，但我认为我们有一个很好的感觉，我们可以通过迭代和改进来帮助我们从看到最初的牵引力时所在的山峰上攀登。

But I think the contrarian that we did, unlike many others did, was at the time when we launched, it was viewed that you needed to have a different app for everything. You had to have a separate podcasting app and podcasting music was very different. For us it’s just listening.

但我认为我们所做的与众不同之处在于，当我们推出时，人们认为你需要为每件事都有一个不同的应用程序。你必须有一个单独的播客应用程序，而播客音乐则非常不同。对我们来说，这只是聆听。

超级应用的思路，类似于微信。

What we realized is we should use this base of what was then several hundred million people in today’s way, north of half a billion people, and just serve them more stuff. It turns out that what we saw all the time, it wasn’t like our music listeners weren’t listening to podcast, so why not use this experience and also recommend them great other stuff?

我们意识到，我们应该利用当时几亿人的基础，如今超过五亿人，并为他们提供更多的内容。事实证明，我们一直看到的情况是，我们的音乐听众并不是不听播客，所以为什么不利用这种经验，也向他们推荐其他很棒的内容呢？

We went from there. Then a year ago we also added audiobooks because that turned out to be another way to increase people’s listening and that they were also spending time doing.

我们从那里开始。然后一年前，我们还增加了有声书，因为事实证明这是另一种增加人们收听的方式，他们也在花时间去做。

Ben: But to your point on being slow and methodical, you had a channel to people, they knew you’re for listening, but if you are stuffing stuff in that channel that is not the thing that they want, then that blows up your core. My takeaway at least is you figured out a way to do it where you made sure that people were going to be open to using you for this new job.

本：但正如你所说的缓慢而有条不紊，你有一个与人沟通的渠道，他们知道你在倾听，但如果你在那个渠道中塞入他们不想要的东西，那就会破坏你的核心。至少我的收获是你找到了一个方法来确保人们愿意使用你来做这项新工作。

Daniel: Of course, you’re right obviously. Just because you have the distribution advantage doesn’t mean it’ll work. But I think going back to it, what’s so amazing with the platform is every time we try to do something to deliberate top down, it sort of fails. Most of the time actually what we see is the inklings of something already existing on the platform and then growing from there.

丹尼尔：当然，你显然是对的。仅仅因为你有分销优势并不意味着它会奏效。但我认为回过头来看，这个平台的惊人之处在于，每次我们试图自上而下地做一些事情时，它都有点失败。实际上，大多数时候我们看到的是平台上已经存在的一些苗头，然后从那里发展起来。

这个方法在字节已经非常成熟，缺点是短濒快，如果能捕捉更长远的项目会更好。

I mentioned this at the beginning, but Germany was an early indicator for a lot of things for us both in podcasting and in books. What I realized even before we launched books, for instance, was around 2018, we started seeing books showing up on the top list in Germany of the most listened to music tracks. It was music, it was clearly books, but it made it all the way up to the top list. Surely thereafter, we started showing up as the biggest book distributor in the country, but we weren’t even trying. It was actually a pretty horrible experience to listen to books on Spotify.

我在一开始就提到过，德国在播客和书籍方面对我们来说都是一个早期的指标。例如，在我们推出书籍之前，我意识到大约在 2018 年，我们开始看到书籍出现在德国最受欢迎的音乐曲目榜单上。虽然是音乐，但显然是书籍，却一路攀升到了榜单的顶端。不久之后，我们开始成为该国最大的书籍发行商，但我们甚至没有刻意去做。实际上，在 Spotify 上听书是一个相当糟糕的体验。

When your product is being used in spite of it actually being a pretty terrible experience, you know you’ve got something. That was this genesis for how we then were able to build and expand.

当你的产品被使用，尽管实际上体验非常糟糕，你就知道你有了一些东西。这就是我们如何能够建立和扩展的起源。

Ben: That’s awesome. Well, that’s it for this segment. Are you going to stick around and watch the rest of the night?

本：太棒了。好了，这一段就到这里。你会留下来观看今晚剩下的部分吗？

Daniel: Oh yeah, for sure. I’m so excited.

丹尼尔：哦，是的，当然。我太兴奋了。

Ben: Awesome. Well, Daniel, thank you

本：太棒了。好的，丹尼尔，谢谢你。

David: Thank you so much for being here.

大卫：非常感谢你能来这里。

Ben: All right, listeners, this is a great time to tell you about one of our favorite companies in the Acquired ecosystem, Statsig. As you probably know by now, Statsig is the world’s first product acceleration platform. Thousands of companies from OpenAI to Series A startups rely on Statsig to ship fast, learn more, and make smart decisions. But you may not know about all the ways in which their story is directly tied to Facebook’s story that Mark will share with us later this episode.

本：好的，听众朋友们，现在是告诉你们关于我们在 Acquired 生态系统中最喜欢的公司之一 Statsig 的好时机。你们可能已经知道，Statsig 是全球首个产品加速平台。从 OpenAI 到 A 轮初创公司，成千上万的公司依赖 Statsig 快速发布、学习更多并做出明智的决策。但你可能不知道他们的故事与 Facebook 的故事有着直接联系，Mark 将在本集稍后与我们分享。

David: Indeed and Mark’s most famous catchphrase is probably move fast and break things. But despite instilling this in Facebook’s engineering culture, Facebook doesn’t actually break very often. How Ben?

大卫：确实，马克最著名的口号可能是“快速行动，打破常规”。但尽管将这一理念灌输到 Facebook 的工程文化中，Facebook 实际上并不经常出问题。怎么回事，本？

Ben: Well, Facebook invested hundreds of thousands of engineering hours in a set of internal tools. These tools let any engineer set up new metrics, ship new features, and measure performance in real time. That meant anyone could just ship a new feature, but they always had the metrics to use as guardrails, and they could always roll it back if anything broke.

本：嗯，Facebook 投入了数十万小时的工程时间开发了一套内部工具。这些工具让任何工程师都可以设置新的指标、发布新功能，并实时测量性能。这意味着任何人都可以发布新功能，但他们总是有指标作为护栏，如果出现问题，他们总是可以回滚。

David: Totally awesome. You might wish that your team could build products like Facebook did—ship fast, make database decisions, iterate rapidly—but you need the right tools, so you’re stuck, right? Well enter Statsig.

David：太棒了。你可能希望你的团队能够像 Facebook 那样构建产品——快速发布、基于数据库做决策、快速迭代——但你需要合适的工具，所以你被困住了，对吗？那么，欢迎使用 Statsig。

Statsig has built the world’s first product acceleration platform, combining tools like feature flags, product analytics, experimentation, and observability all in one place, helping you move faster and make smarter decisions.

Statsig 构建了全球首个产品加速平台，将功能标志、产品分析、实验和可观测性等工具结合在一起，帮助您更快地行动并做出更明智的决策。

Ben: And even better, Statig was literally founded by an ex-Meta team who wanted to help everyone build like the best. Today, many of the world’s leading tech companies rely on Statsig, including OpenAI, Microsoft, Notion, Anthropic, Figma, plus thousands of early stage startups.

本：更好的是，Statsig 实际上是由一支前 Meta 团队创立的，他们希望帮助每个人像最优秀的人一样构建。如今，许多世界领先的科技公司依赖于 Statsig，包括 OpenAI、微软、Notion、Anthropic、Figma，以及数千家早期初创公司。

David: So if you’re ready to accelerate your growth and democratize product building at your company, just go to statsig.com/acquired. When you get in touch, just tell them that Ben and David sent you.

David：如果您准备好加速增长并在公司实现产品构建民主化，只需访问 statsig.com/acquired。联系时，只需告诉他们是 Ben 和 David 介绍的。

Ben: Now is also a great time to tell you about one of our very favorite companies, the climate-aligned AI infrastructure provider, Crusoe.

本：现在也是告诉你我们最喜欢的公司之一的好时机，即气候对齐的 AI 基础设施提供商 Crusoe。

David: Crusoe is a cloud platform built specifically for AI workloads and powered by clean energy. They build and operate GPU data centers, with each one powered by low-cost stranded energy that otherwise goes to waste, or worse gets admitted as greenhouse gasses.

大卫：Crusoe 是一个专为 AI 工作负载构建的云平台，并由清洁能源驱动。他们建设和运营 GPU 数据中心，每个数据中心都由低成本的搁浅能源供电，这些能源否则会被浪费，或者更糟糕的是被排放为温室气体。

Ben: The way this works is completely crazy. When Acquired first started working with Crusoe last year, it was a cool idea. It was an early stage, very cool, insane concept. Now, they are one of the world’s most important companies with an AI cloud that is actually superior to the hyperscalers. A whole bunch of the largest companies in the world are now trusting their AI infrastructure to Crusoe.

本：这个运作方式简直疯狂。当 Acquired 去年首次开始与 Crusoe 合作时，这只是一个很酷的想法。那是一个早期阶段，非常酷，疯狂的概念。现在，他们是世界上最重要的公司之一，拥有实际上优于超大规模云服务商的 AI 云。世界上一大批最大的公司现在都将他们的 AI 基础设施信任给 Crusoe。

David: It’s easy to think about AI as like, oh, that’s a bunch of PhDs over at Meta or OpenAI or Anthropic tinkering with model weights and then going and hitting compute. But there’s this whole other industrial side of AI that’s everything that happens after they press go on model training. That’s energy, that’s cooling, that’s construction. It’s literally steel and pipes and wire. It’s all the physical infrastructure behind AI.

大卫：很容易把人工智能想象成，哦，那是一群在 Meta、OpenAI 或 Anthropic 的博士们在调整模型权重，然后去进行计算。但人工智能还有另一整个工业方面，那就是在他们开始模型训练后发生的一切。那是能源，那是冷却，那是建设。那实际上是钢铁、管道和电线。那是人工智能背后的所有物理基础设施。

Crusoe has hundreds and hundreds of construction workers, steel workers, plumbers, electricians, all building and operating data centers in some of the harshest locations on earth to capture this energy.

Crusoe有成百上千的建筑工人、钢铁工人、水管工、电工，所有这些人在地球上一些最恶劣的地方建造和运营数据中心，以捕获这种能源。

Ben: The net of all this is Crusoe has gigawatts of power in their development pipeline that is like nuclear reactor amounts of power for less cost than other providers, and with zero, or in some cases actually negative emissions. That’s super important. If you listen to Mark talk later than this episode or elsewhere about what the bottleneck to AI progress is, it’s actually not compute but energy, and Crusoe is solving that problem.

本：总的来说，Crusoe 在其开发管道中拥有吉瓦级的电力，这相当于核反应堆的电力，但成本低于其他供应商，并且排放为零，或者在某些情况下实际上是负排放。这非常重要。如果你在本集之后或其他地方听 Mark 谈论 AI 进展的瓶颈是什么，实际上不是计算能力而是能源，而 Crusoe 正在解决这个问题。

David: It’s just an awesome company. We’re super proud to work with them and also to be investors.

大卫：这真是一个了不起的公司。我们非常自豪能与他们合作并成为投资者。

The other big update that’s happened since we started working with them last year is that you can now work with Crusoe either through their managed AI cloud, which you always could, and that’s great for startups and enterprises who want to complete AI platform, or directly as a data center customer, which yes, several of the biggest companies in the world are now doing.

自从我们去年开始与他们合作以来，另一个重大更新是您现在可以通过他们的托管 AI 云与 Crusoe 合作，这一直是可以的，这对希望完成 AI 平台的初创企业和企业来说是很好的选择，或者直接作为数据中心客户，是的，世界上几家最大的公司现在正在这样做。

Just go on over to crusoe.ai/acquired, or click the link in the show notes and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

只需访问 crusoe.ai/acquired，或点击节目备注中的链接，并告诉他们是 Ben 和 David 让你来的。

Ben: Thanks Crusoe. 本：谢谢，克鲁索。

David: Well, we’ve got a little more time before Mark comes on, and we have a couple of more surprises planned. I think it’s time to talk about the next one.

大卫：好吧，在马克上场之前我们还有一点时间，我们还计划了几个惊喜。我想是时候谈谈下一个了。

Ben: Act II. 本：第二幕。

David: Act II. 大卫：第二幕。

Ben: So David and I are sitting around, we’re planning tonight. We’re like, what’s the thing to do when we’ve got all these great folks in the room who love Acquired? And we’re like, rather than ask them, hey, what should we do tonight, we just check our email and see like, what do people actually already want when we’re not even asking

本：所以大卫和我坐在一起，计划今晚的活动。我们想，当我们有这么多热爱 Acquired 的优秀人士在场时，该做些什么呢？我们想，与其问他们，嘿，今晚我们该做什么，不如查看我们的电子邮件，看看在我们没有询问的情况下，人们实际上已经想要什么。

David: Episode requests, number one. You go through the Acquired inbox, lots of episode requests.

大卫：剧集请求，第一。你查看 Acquired 的收件箱，有很多剧集请求。

Ben: The second biggest request is, hey, you did this episode, you were wrong. You need to fix it. Or you did this episode, a lot has happened since, and you need to do a follow-up on it. We thought, what if we pick three or four of those and we speedrun all of them with the Acquired audience present?

本：第二大请求是，嘿，你做了这一集，你错了。你需要修正它。或者你做了这一集，之后发生了很多事情，你需要跟进一下。我们想，如果我们选择三到四个这样的请求，并在 Acquired 听众面前快速完成所有这些请求，会怎么样？

David: Yup, add it, update the Acquired cannon. We thought, who could we do this with? And it just so happens that the perfect person to grill us on everything we got wrong and everything we need to update lives right here in San Francisco. Please welcome from Bloomberg and The Circuit, Emily Chang.

大卫：是的，添加它，更新已获取的大炮。我们想，谁可以和我们一起做这件事？碰巧的是，那个可以质问我们所有错误和需要更新的完美人选就住在旧金山。请欢迎来自彭博社和《The Circuit》的 Emily Chang。

Emily: Hi. Hello. 艾米丽：嗨。你好。

David: Hi. 大卫：嗨。

Emily: Hi, hugs. 艾米莉：嗨，抱抱。

David: Emily, oh thank you so much.

大卫：艾米莉，哦，非常感谢你。

Emily: Congratulations. 艾米丽：恭喜。

Ben: Thank you. Thank you for being our guest.

本：谢谢。感谢您成为我们的嘉宾。

Emily: You guys. This is pretty awesome.

艾米丽：你们。这真是太棒了。

Ben: Welcome to our recording studio.

本：欢迎来到我们的录音室。

David: Welcome to our, yeah.

大卫：欢迎来到我们的，是的。

Emily: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

艾米丽：谢谢。我很高兴来到这里。

Ben: I need to mine you for some research. I know we have a thing that we’re doing here over the next 19 minutes, but you went wake surfing with Mark. The theme of tonight is researching his. His 4th of July video, he is standing there in a tuxedo with an American flag drinking a beer.

本：我需要向你请教一些研究。我知道接下来的 19 分钟我们有事情要做，但你和马克一起去玩了尾波冲浪。今晚的主题是研究他的。他的 7 月 4 日视频中，他穿着燕尾服，手持美国国旗喝啤酒。

David: Everybody’s seen it.

大卫：每个人都看过了。

Ben: Everybody’s seen this. The tuxedo’s dry. I’ve wake surfed a couple of times. I start in the water and you get pulled up. How logistically, can he step off the boat?

本：大家都看过这个。燕尾服是干的。我玩过几次尾波冲浪。我从水里开始，然后被拉起来。从逻辑上讲，他怎么能从船上下来？

Emily: As you could probably tell from the episode, I’m not a wake surfer, but I tried. Mark is pretty good. What I did not realize is that you can do a dry start where you, if you’re so good, you can just ride the board right off the boat and voila tuxedo surfing video. I can personally attest that I did see him do a dry start, and I think it’s real. I think.

Emily：正如你可能从这一集看出来的，我不是一个尾波冲浪者，但我尝试了。Mark 很厉害。我没有意识到的是，你可以进行干式起步，如果你足够厉害，你可以直接从船上骑着板子出发，然后就有了燕尾服冲浪视频。我可以亲自证明我确实看到他进行了干式起步，我认为这是真的。我想。

Ben: That, or he had a lot of tuxedos on that boat to get multiple trial runs.

本：要么是这样，要么他在那艘船上有很多晚礼服，以便进行多次试航。

Emily: By the way, Priscilla’s pretty awesome too. They can both shred, just have to say that, because she’s here tonight too, yeah.

艾米莉：顺便说一下，普里西拉也很棒。他们俩都很厉害，我得说一下，因为她今晚也在这里，是的。

Ben: All right, Emily. Take us in.

本：好的，艾米丽。带我们进去。

Emily: Right now, and A-plus you guys for self-reflection, we’re going to revisit some of your past episodes. We decided on some episodes that maybe were a little controversial. In the early days, you would grade every company that you covered and you made some good calls, but also some questionable calls sometimes. I thought we would go down a little memory lane and start with YouTube, which David, you gave YouTube a C in 2016.

Emily：现在，给你们一个 A +用于自我反思，我们将重温你们过去的一些节目。我们决定回顾一些可能有点争议的节目。在早期，你们会对每个报道的公司进行评分，你们做出了一些不错的判断，但有时也有一些值得商榷的判断。我想我们可以回忆一下过去，从 YouTube 开始，David，你在 2016 年给 YouTube 打了一个 C。

Ben: This is the acquisition of YouTube by Google.

本：这是谷歌收购 YouTube。

Emily: Right. You, Ben, said it could be as bad as a C-minus. I just questioned that a little bit.

艾米丽：对。你，Ben，说可能会糟到 C -。我只是对此有点质疑。

Ben: We were young. It was 2016. We didn’t know what we were doing.

本：我们那时还年轻。那是 2016 年。我们不知道自己在做什么。

David: We were misguided.

大卫：我们被误导了。

Emily: But let’s just twist the knife a little because we have some quotes here. Ben, you said, “I’m a little bit bearish on YouTube primarily because it’s not a destination.” David said, “Who goes to YouTube and discovers something?”

Emily: 但让我们再加把劲，因为我们这里有一些引述。Ben，你说过，“我对 YouTube 有点看空，主要是因为它不是一个目的地。”David 说，“谁会去 YouTube 并发现什么东西？”

David: The sad part is that we actually said that and decided to revisit this.

大卫：可悲的是，我们实际上说过这句话，并决定重新审视这一点。

Ben: It may actually be the case that that wasn’t a huge behavior yet. I know I’m being defensive here.

本：实际上可能还没有形成很大的行为。我知道我在这里有些防御。

David: Ben, this is where we fall on our sword.

大卫：本，这就是我们自我牺牲的地方。

Ben: YouTube was the utility that you uploaded a video to and then you could embed it on your site. Maybe I was weird, but I couldn’t imagine starting my day and going to youtube.com and just watching whatever it served me the way that now it’s very easy to do that in the app.

本：YouTube 是一个实用工具，你可以上传视频然后嵌入到你的网站上。也许我很奇怪，但我无法想象开始一天时就去 youtube.com 并观看它提供的任何内容，而现在在应用程序中这样做非常容易。

David: For me, there’s a lot to talk about with YouTube that we got wrong. This is the biggest thing that we’ve discovered since. I think literally as we were making that episode, AI and social media feed recommenders were happening in that moment. It was about to lead to everything that is happening today. It was YouTube within Google and Meta (then Facebook) buying GPUs and building AI that turned feed recommenders into the ultimate destination site. We just completely had no idea that that was happening.

David：对我来说，有很多关于 YouTube 的事情我们搞错了。这是我们后来发现的最大问题。我认为就在我们制作那一集时，AI 和社交媒体推荐算法正在发生。这即将导致今天发生的一切。那时 YouTube 在 Google 内部，而 Meta（当时是 Facebook）购买 GPU 并构建 AI，将推荐算法变成了终极目的地网站。我们完全不知道那正在发生。

Ben: AI had its moment a decade ago, where I’m all excited about it now, but the use case of recommending you something that should be the next item that you should consume was a killer use case for AI. Even then we missed that.

本：人工智能在十年前有过它的高光时刻，我现在对此感到非常兴奋，但推荐你下一个应该消费的项目的用例是人工智能的杀手级用例。即便如此，我们当时也错过了。

Emily: Well, today you have analysts saying if you pulled YouTube out of Google, it would be worth half a trillion dollars, which is almost double where Netflix is. It’s on track, YouTube TV to be the largest cable provider in the United States.

Emily：如今有分析师表示，如果将 YouTube 从 Google 中剥离出来，其价值将达到五千亿美元，几乎是 Netflix 的两倍。YouTube TV 正在成为美国最大的有线电视提供商。

David: It has Sunday Ticket.

大卫：它有 Sunday Ticket。

Emily: I have a house full of kids. In my house, it’s the first and the second screen because we have YouTube TV. The question is, can they really be everything to everyone?

Emily：我家里有一群孩子。在我家，YouTube TV 是第一和第二屏幕。问题是，他们真的能成为每个人的一切吗？

David: Here is I think our most legitimate defense. Google does not report YouTube profitability. They report YouTube revenue. When we did the episode, YouTube was doing about $5 billion run rate revenue. It is now $35–$40 billion annual revenue run rate.

大卫：我认为这是我们最合理的辩护。谷歌并不报告 YouTube 的盈利情况。他们报告的是 YouTube 的收入。当我们做那期节目时，YouTube 的营业收入大约是 50 亿美元。现在是 350 亿到 400 亿美元的年营业收入。

Ben: And back then it was way losing money. It was a money pit.

本：那时候它亏损得很厉害。简直是个无底洞。

David: Yes, it was losing a lot of money back then. Google does not report today, but here is what is unique about YouTube versus every other platform is they pay out 55% of revenue on long-form and 45% on shorts directly to creators.

大卫：是的，那时候亏了很多钱。谷歌今天没有报告，但 YouTube 与其他平台的独特之处在于，他们将 55%的长视频收入和 45%的短视频收入直接支付给创作者。

Ben: Which is great for creators, but that’s a tough business to run when every dollar you’re getting in, you’re giving more than half out.

本：这对创作者来说很好，但当你每赚进一美元，就要分出一半以上时，这是一项难以经营的业务。

David: I think it’s a direct variable cost.

大卫：我认为这是一个直接变动成本。

Emily: $70 billion to creators over the last three years, which again, is more than Netflix spends on content.

艾米莉：过去三年中向创作者支付了 700 亿美元，这比 Netflix 在内容上的花费还要多。

Ben: I’ll go on record. Youtube was an A-plus acquisition because of the strategic value. Whether it’s the second largest search engine second to Google, or the second largest social media property, it is strategically a very great thing to own. Not to mention going into the land of AI training data. But as a business, it is not clear to me that YouTube makes money.

本：我会公开表示。YouTube 是一个 A +收购，因为它的战略价值。无论是作为仅次于 Google 的第二大搜索引擎，还是第二大社交媒体资产，拥有它在战略上都是非常好的事情。更不用说进入 AI 训练数据领域。但作为一项业务，我不清楚 YouTube 是否盈利。

Emily: My sources also, if they’re making money, it’s little to no money. But they could obviously change how much they’re paying out to creators. They can turn the spigot on and off.

Emily：我的消息来源也说，如果他们在赚钱，那也是很少甚至没有钱。但他们显然可以改变支付给创作者的金额。他们可以开关水龙头。

David: With it and the durability that they’re building, and the affinity from creators. We’ll talk about creators on the platform in a minute. There is a reason why so many creators want to graduate to YouTube, and this is it.

大卫：凭借他们正在构建的耐用性以及创作者的亲和力。我们稍后会谈到平台上的创作者。有很多创作者想要升级到 YouTube，是有原因的，这就是原因。

Emily: Well, my show’s on YouTube, your show’s on YouTube. How do you feel about YouTube as creators?

Emily：嗯，我的节目在 YouTube 上，你的节目也在 YouTube 上。作为创作者，你对 YouTube 有什么看法？

Ben: Strongly. For everyone listening, thank you for listening to the podcast feed where we have a direct relationship with you that is not intermediated by an algorithm. But honestly, it is the craziest thing to see these YouTubers who have built mass followings, tens of millions, hundreds of millions sometimes of subscribers, where subscribers and views are uncorrelated.

本：非常感谢。感谢所有收听的听众，感谢你们收听我们的播客，在这里我们与你们建立了不受算法干扰的直接关系。但说实话，看到这些 YouTuber 建立了庞大的粉丝群，有时有数千万甚至上亿的订阅者，而订阅者数量和观看次数却没有相关性，这真是太疯狂了。

Emily: Grade today? 艾米丽：今天的成绩？

David: A-plus. Here’s the other thing we didn’t mention, and I think this was true back then too. YouTube is both the second largest social media property in the world and the second largest search engine in the world. So yeah, A-plus.

大卫：A +。还有另一件我们没有提到的事情，我认为当时也是如此。YouTube 既是世界上第二大社交媒体平台，也是世界上第二大搜索引擎。所以，是的，A +。

Ben: The way that you should look at YouTube is not what is the discounted cash flow of YouTube as an independent business if you look at their profitability today. It’s what was the existential risk to Google of not owning YouTube if YouTube became a thing somewhere outside of Google? And that is worth paying a lot for.

本：你应该看待 YouTube 的方式不是将其作为一个独立业务的贴现现金流来评估其当前的盈利能力。而是要考虑如果 YouTube 在谷歌之外的某个地方发展起来，谷歌不拥有 YouTube 的生存风险是什么？这值得付出高价。

Emily: Huge. All right, moving on. The next company we’re going to talk about is LinkedIn. You covered it three days after they got bought by Microsoft. You both basically gave it an A. Ben quote, “How are we both positive on this? I woke up Monday morning being like, what?”

Emily：太好了。好，继续。接下来我们要谈论的公司是 LinkedIn。你在他们被微软收购后三天进行了报道。你们俩基本上都给了个 A。Ben 引用，“我们怎么都对此持积极态度？我周一早上醒来时就像，什么？”

Ben: Oh, yeah. Then we’ve got this other one.

本：哦，是的。然后我们还有另一个。

Emily: What about LinkedIn today?

艾米丽：今天的 LinkedIn 怎么样？

Ben: That we said we had no idea how it went because It was too recent. I think the story with LinkedIn is that it was super unclear that it had the running room ahead of it. What are the numbers on LinkedIn today, revenue-wise?

本：我们说我们不知道它的进展如何，因为这太新了。我认为关于 LinkedIn 的故事是，它的前景非常不明确。LinkedIn 今天的收入是多少？

David: $16 billion–plus in revenue today.

大卫：今天的收入超过 160 亿美元。

Ben: They’ve 5x revenue since they were bought 8 years ago.

本：自从 8 年前被收购以来，他们的收入增长了 5 倍。

David: Of which $5 billion comes from advertising and content, which for all intents and purposes, didn’t exist when the acquisition happened. They have built that into a real business. For us on Acquired—we actually went and looked in preparation for this—we have about a relatively equal number of followers on LinkedIn as a platform versus any of the other social platforms out there. But engagement is like 5x–10x on LinkedIn. It’s our most important social platform. If you had said that eight years ago, it would’ve been crazy.

大卫：其中 50 亿美元来自广告和内容，而在收购发生时，这些几乎不存在。他们已经将其发展成一个真正的业务。对于我们在 Acquired——我们实际上去做了准备——我们在 LinkedIn 上的关注者数量与其他社交平台相比相对相等。但在 LinkedIn 上的互动是其他平台的 5 到 10 倍。它是我们最重要的社交平台。如果你在八年前这么说，那会显得很疯狂。

Ben: The reason why this was worth a revisit, and that why I think they’ve been so much more successful than anyone would’ve thought at the time of acquisition, they 5x in revenue, which, over 8 years is great, but not 3–4 standard deviations from the mean, it’s not one of these crazy things in the world. But essentially they created $100 billion of market cap.

本：之所以值得重新审视，以及我认为他们比当初收购时任何人预期的要成功得多的原因是，他们的收入增长了 5 倍，虽然在 8 年内这很不错，但并不是偏离平均值的 3-4 个标准差，这并不是世界上那些疯狂的事情之一。但基本上，他们创造了 1000 亿美元的市值。

If you look at what a reasonable multiple would be for LinkedIn if it were an independent company today, it’s a big company. It would be over a $100 billion market cap company today. And it’s just kind of hanging out inside Microsoft.

如果你看看今天作为一家独立公司时 LinkedIn 的合理倍数，它是一家大公司。今天它的市值将超过 1000 亿美元。而它只是微软内部的一个部分。

Emily: Revisiting this was a little traumatic for me because if you’ll remember, this was an acquisition that no one saw coming. There were no leaks, no reporting on this before it happened. My producer was apparently calling my phone nonstop in the morning. It was the crack of dawn and I was not picking up.

Emily: 重新审视这件事对我来说有点创伤，因为如果你还记得的话，这是一个没有人预料到的收购。在这件事发生之前没有任何泄漏，也没有任何报道。显然，我的制片人在早上不停地打我的电话。那时天刚破晓，我没有接电话。

She called my husband who came in and was like, Microsoft just bought LinkedIn and you have to interview Satya and Jeff Wiener in an hour. I was like, what? So yeah, that’s what I remember.

她打电话给我丈夫，他进来说，微软刚刚收购了 LinkedIn，你得在一个小时内采访 Satya 和 Jeff Wiener。我当时就想，什么？所以是的，这就是我记得的。

Ben: Was it a good interview?

本：访谈顺利吗？

Emily: I think so, actually,

艾米丽：我想是的，实际上，

David: I watched it. You said it? Yeah, it was good. It was great.

大卫：我看了。你说了吗？是的，很好。太棒了。

Emily: My hair wasn’t quite fully done, but we made it. We made it through.

艾米丽：我的头发还没完全弄好，但我们成功了。我们挺过来了。

Ben: You have some new reporting.

本：你有一些新的报告。

Emily: I do actually, because I talked to Reid Hoffman who of course is the co-founder of LinkedIn. It’s interesting because Reid joined the board of Microsoft. He’s still on the board of Microsoft. He was an early investor in open AI on the board of OpenAI. Shocker. Satya Nadella is on the AI train early. Microsoft is the biggest backer of OpenAI now.

Emily：确实如此，因为我和 LinkedIn 的联合创始人 Reid Hoffman 谈过。这很有趣，因为 Reid 加入了微软的董事会。他仍然在微软的董事会中。他是 OpenAI 的早期投资者，也是 OpenAI 的董事会成员。令人惊讶的是，Satya Nadella 很早就加入了 AI 的行列。微软现在是 OpenAI 最大的支持者。

David: And Kevin Scott is the CTO of Microsoft now who came from LinkedIn.

大卫：而凯文·斯科特现在是微软的首席技术官，他来自领英。

Emily: Reid gave me a little quote. He said, “Satya has run Microsoft as a type of founder. You could call it being a re-founder or even a late stage co-founder. The re-founder doesn’t need to have been in the garage from day one. He shifted the company’s focus away from a cutthroat culture and competition–only practices towards embracing social networks, collaboration, cloud, and the next wave of AI.”

艾米莉：里德给了我一句话。他说：“萨提亚以创始人的方式经营微软。你可以称之为重新创始人，甚至是后期联合创始人。重新创始人不需要从第一天就待在车库里。他将公司的重点从残酷竞争和竞争至上的做法转向了拥抱社交网络、协作、云计算和下一波人工智能。”

David: The question is, did he listen to our Microsoft series?

大卫：问题是，他有没有听我们的微软系列？

Emily: I don’t know. You wonder if the AI wars would’ve played out differently. Okay, we’re going to keep moving quickly because I really want to make sure we get to the last one. SpaceX, one of your most popular episodes ever, luckily you’re in the clear because you didn’t grade them.

Emily：我不知道。你会想知道如果 AI 战争会有不同的结果。好吧，我们要继续快速前进，因为我真的想确保我们能谈到最后一个。SpaceX，这是你最受欢迎的剧集之一，幸运的是你没给他们评分，所以你没事。

David: We stopped grading at some point.

大卫：我们在某个时候停止评分。

Emily: But obviously Starlink is a juggernaut. Ben, you talked about it being potentially a $30 billion business at the time. Can you grade SpaceX today knowing that Starlink is just even bigger?

Emily：但显然，Starlink 是一个巨头。Ben，你曾说过它可能是一个价值 300 亿美元的业务。考虑到 Starlink 现在更大了，你能对今天的 SpaceX 进行评分吗？

Ben: Yeah, the company was valued at $36 billion in May of 2020 when we did the episode. At that time, they had had 26 successful launches that year. Last year they did 96 launches, and they’re planning to do 118 this year, which is over 2 a week. It’s insane.

本：是的，公司在 2020 年 5 月我们做那期节目时估值为 360 亿美元。那时，他们当年已经成功发射了 26 次。去年他们进行了 96 次发射，今年计划进行 118 次发射，这意味着每周超过 2 次。这太疯狂了。

David: They’re doing one every three days.

大卫：他们每三天做一个。

Ben: But on top of the launch business…

本：但在发射业务之上……

David: The launch business is not the interesting part of the business.

大卫：发射业务不是业务中有趣的部分。

Ben: They now have Starlink, which is estimated to do $6.5 billion in 2024, and they are reportedly profitable as a business. I’m pretty sure the 7000 Starlink satellites that are in orbit represent two-thirds of the total satellites orbiting the earth.

本：他们现在有 Starlink，预计在 2024 年将达到 65 亿美元，据报道他们作为一家企业是盈利的。我很确定在轨的 7000 颗 Starlink 卫星占了地球轨道上总卫星的三分之二。

It’s not just like, oh, we’ll see if people want Starlink. People want Starlink. The business itself—I’m looking at the subscriber count—I think it’s something like three million subscribers. And it’s only been three years since it launched.

这不仅仅是看看人们是否想要 Starlink。人们确实想要 Starlink。就业务本身而言——我正在查看用户数量——我认为大约有三百万用户。而且自从它推出以来才三年。

David: When we did the episode, Starlink was the pie in the sky, literally. There was nothing. SpaceX was valued at $36 billion when we did the episode. Starlink itself is worth way more than $36 billion today.

大卫：当我们制作那集节目时，Starlink 就像是空中的馅饼，字面意思。当时什么都没有。我们制作那集节目时，SpaceX 的估值是 360 亿美元。如今，Starlink 本身的价值远远超过 360 亿美元。

Emily: It’s a beast. By the way, nobody else could have saved those astronauts.

艾米丽：这真是个怪物。顺便说一下，没有其他人能救那些宇航员。

Ben: Fighting words. 本：战斗的言辞。

Emily: I mean, NASA didn’t have a choice. Well, Russia maybe, but that’s complicated. We don’t even know if China could dock with the ISS. I think that’s okay to say.

艾米莉：我的意思是，NASA 没有选择。嗯，俄罗斯也许可以，但那很复杂。我们甚至不知道中国能否与国际空间站对接。我觉得这样说没问题。

Sorry. Where did I just cross the line?

对不起。我刚才哪里越界了？

Ben: I will say the Starlink execution is just more remarkable than I think 99% of people would’ve guessed.

本：我会说，Starlink 的执行力比我认为 99% 的人猜测的要更出色。

Emily: Okay. Now to your most requested revisit ever, the arena queen. You gave her an A-plus, but that was two years ago before the Eras Tour. I think you’re going to have to invent a new category.

Emily：好的。现在是你们最想重温的内容，竞技场女王。你给了她一个 A +，但那是两年前在时代巡演之前。我想你得发明一个新类别。

Ben: Certainly, or stop grading. That’s the real answer.

本：当然，或者停止评分。这才是真正的答案。

David: The context on this is it’s a little weird because there’s no enterprise value of Taylor out there that you can calculate. The closest thing was when we did the episode, Forbes estimated her net worth at $550 million. Not woo. By our calculations, we’re pretty sure she generated on the order of $550 million of free cash flow this last 12 months. That’s a woo.

大卫：这有点奇怪，因为你无法计算出泰勒的企业价值。最接近的是我们做节目的时候，福布斯估计她的净资产为 5.5 亿美元。不是“哇”。根据我们的计算，我们很确定她在过去 12 个月中产生了大约 5.5 亿美元的自由现金流。这才是“哇”。

Emily: So is she more than a billionaire?

艾米莉：那么她的资产超过十亿美元了吗？

Ben: David’s got an argument on this. Walk us through your perceived financial breakdown of Swift Incorporated.

本：David 对此有一个论点。请为我们详细讲解你对 Swift 公司财务状况的看法。

David: Of Taylor Swift, Inc. The big piece that I actually think is the most interesting piece that we got wrong in our episode, Ben did a fantastic primer on the music industry and all the challenges for artists and et cetera, et cetera, it’s getting better, Spotify’s doing great and Daniel’s doing great and all that. The latest reported, talked about numbers was that Taylor was making less than $5 million dollars a year from streaming.

大卫：关于泰勒·斯威夫特公司。我认为我们在节目中搞错的最有趣的一点是，本对音乐行业以及艺术家面临的所有挑战等做了一个很棒的介绍，情况正在好转，Spotify 表现出色，丹尼尔也表现出色等等。最新报道和讨论的数字是泰勒每年从流媒体中赚不到 500 万美元。

Ben: There was this myth that streaming doesn’t pay.

本：有一种说法是流媒体不赚钱。

David: Last year Taylor made well over—this was reported—$100 million from Spotify streaming alone. Alone. Doesn’t include any of the other platforms, so gross that up. By nature of what she has been doing that we talked about in that episode redoing her masters, you think about what of the percentage of those streams that are happening, are they on where she owns all the rights? That is a very, very, very high gross margin number that is coming to table every year.

大卫：去年，泰勒仅通过 Spotify 流媒体就赚了超过——据报道——1 亿美元。仅此而已。不包括任何其他平台，所以把这个数字放大。根据我们在那一集中谈到的她重录母带的行为，你想想那些流媒体播放中有多少百分比是她拥有所有权利的？那是一个非常、非常、非常高的毛利率数字，每年都会出现。

Ben: Of that high $100-plus million streaming number, she actually keeps quite a bit of it because of this strategy that she’s—

本：在超过 1 亿美元的高流媒体收入中，她实际上保留了相当一部分，因为她采用了这种策略——

David: The amount that she’s getting just from streaming. Eras tour aside, movie aside, she’s getting paid more every year than any Hollywood actor, probably any athlete in the world. She could just sit at home. But she doesn’t.

大卫：她仅仅通过流媒体获得的收入。撇开巡演和电影不谈，她每年获得的报酬比任何好莱坞演员，可能比世界上任何运动员都多。她可以待在家里。但她没有。

Ben: Okay. But then, she did an Eras tour, which is the most unbelievable tour that any artist has ever conceived of or executed. How much money did that make last year, David?

本：好的。但是，她进行了一个 Eras 巡演，这是任何艺术家所构思或执行过的最不可思议的巡演。大卫，那去年赚了多少钱？

David: Last year, the Eras tour in the calendar year 2023 grossed (I think) $1.1 billion.

大卫：去年，2023 年日历年的 Eras 巡演总收入（我想）是 11 亿美元。

Ben: Which is a gross. And tours are expensive. There are a lot of things involved in making shows.

本：那是一个总数。而且巡演很贵。制作演出涉及很多事情。

David: Yes, there are. The previous record for highest grossing tour ever, I believe was $1 billion. Taylor eclipsed that over multiple years that that was earned. Not only did she set the record for highest grossing tour, she did it within 12 months. Obviously the tour has continued.

大卫：是的，有的。之前最高票房巡演的记录，我相信是 10 亿美元。泰勒在多年间超越了这一记录。她不仅创下了最高票房巡演的记录，而且是在 12 个月内完成的。显然，巡演还在继续。

Ben: But let’s say she operates a very high margin touring business. Let’s assume she’s very efficient at it. Call it a 30%–35% operating margin on the business. A lot of artists actually lose money touring because it’s… anyway.

本：但假设她经营一家利润率很高的巡演业务。假设她在这方面非常高效。可以说业务的营业利润率是 30%–35%。很多艺术家实际上在巡演中亏钱，因为……不管怎样。

David: That’s another $300–$350 million in cash flow every year.

大卫：这又是每年 3 亿到 3.5 亿美元的现金流。

Ben: Or at least last year during the Eras tour she’s making that.

本：或者至少去年在 Eras 巡演期间她正在制作那个。

David: When she’s actively touring.

大卫：当她正在巡演时。

Ben: And then… 本：然后……

David: And then there’s the movie. The movie grossed $267 million at the box office. Highest gross in concert film of all time. Taylor went directly to the theaters with the movie.

大卫：然后是电影。电影票房收入达到 2.67 亿美元。成为有史以来音乐会电影的最高票房。泰勒直接将电影送到了电影院。

Ben: So paying less middlemen.

本：所以减少中间商。

David: Less middlemen. Then she did the direct deal with Disney for the streaming rights. That was another $75 million on top of that. So well over $300 million. Obviously you’re not going to make a movie every year.

大卫：减少中间商。然后她直接与迪士尼达成了流媒体版权的交易。这又是 7500 万美元的收入。所以总共超过 3 亿美元。显然，你不可能每年都拍电影。

Ben: So David, you’re getting to the point of your $550 million number of cash flow last year may actually be conservative.

本：所以，戴维，你去年 5.5 亿美元的现金流可能实际上是保守的。

David: I think that is conservative for last year. I think if you were to say like, okay, what is a smoothed-out steady state over a three year rolling average for Taylor Inc.?

大卫：我认为那是去年的保守估计。我认为如果你要说，好吧，泰勒公司三年滚动平均的平稳状态是什么？

Ben: Oh, you did used to be an investment banker.

本：哦，你以前确实是个投资银行家。

David: Half a billion–plus cash flow every year.

大卫：每年超过五亿的现金流。

Emily: I re-listened to the Taylor podcast with my kids driving to Tahoe and they loved it. You have a potential gen alpha audience.

艾米莉：我和孩子们开车去塔霍时重新听了泰勒的播客，他们很喜欢。你有潜在的α世代观众。

David: It’s a gateway drug.

大卫：这是入门毒品。

Emily: In case you’re getting nervous. But here’s a question. Is it possible that we’re at peak Taylor?

艾米莉：以防你紧张。不过我有个问题。有没有可能我们正处于泰勒的巅峰期？

David: This is the most important debate to all of this, which is if you’re trying to value the enterprise of Taylor, what multiple do you put on that cash flow, right?

大卫：这是所有问题中最重要的争论，即如果你试图评估泰勒的企业，你会给那个现金流赋予多少倍数，对吗？

Ben: Do you believe it is a durable business like some of the great content businesses of all time? Like the one that you put in our model, which is Disney?

本：你认为这是一项像有史以来一些伟大的内容业务一样持久的业务吗？就像你放入我们模型中的迪士尼？

David: Yes. Disney trade’s a 20x free cash flow. Taylor has $550 million in free cash flow. That’s a $11 billion enterprise value for Taylor. Forbes currently estimates her net worth at 1.1 I think.

大卫：是的。迪士尼的交易是 20 倍的自由现金流。泰勒有 5.5 亿美元的自由现金流。这意味着泰勒的企业价值为 110 亿美元。福布斯目前估计她的净资产为 1.1，我想。

Emily: And now she’s in her NFL era. How do you value that?

艾米莉：现在她进入了她的 NFL 时代。你怎么看待这个？

David: Right. But I think Ben and I differ a little bit on this. I would argue Disney is the right comp.

大卫：对。但我认为本和我在这方面有点不同。我会认为迪士尼是正确的比较对象。

Ben: Oh boy. To look at the single greatest IP holder in the world that has proven over a century that it can stay relevant, and apply that multiple to a single artist with no diversification, who has had this unbelievable ascent, and you’re taking that multiple off of this extreme outlier year, I’m not saying it should trade at 1x or 2x, but 20x, David, is a little…

本：天哪。看看这个在一个世纪里证明自己能够保持相关性的世界上最大的 IP 持有者，并将其倍数应用于一个没有多样化的单一艺术家，他有着令人难以置信的崛起，而你是从这个极端的异常年份中取出这个倍数，我不是说它应该以 1 倍或 2 倍交易，但 20 倍，大卫，有点……

But your point I think is a very interesting one, which is when people are looking at the net worth of a person like this, they foolishly don’t consider it an enterprise.

但我认为你的观点非常有趣，那就是当人们看待这样一个人的净资产时，他们愚蠢地没有将其视为一个企业。

David: The multiple they’re using is one.

大卫：他们使用的倍数是 1。

Ben: Right. Why are you assuming that they’re worth the cash in their bank when clearly they can produce these incredible returns year over year over year. I think that the slept-on thing is Taylor.

本：对。为什么你假设他们银行里的现金值钱，而显然他们每年都能产生这些惊人的回报。我认为被忽视的事情是泰勒。

David: Are we at peak Taylor? I think to me, the song that played before we started the movie, I’m Walking Out Here, was Start Me Up by the Rolling Stones. Taylor is the Rolling Stones.

大卫：我们现在处于泰勒的巅峰吗？我觉得对我来说，在我们开始看电影之前播放的那首歌《I'm Walking Out Here》是滚石乐队的《Start Me Up》。泰勒就是滚石乐队。

Ben: Of this generation?

本：这一代的？

David: Yeah. 大卫：是的。

Emily: The Taylor or just beginning. I’m going to say no just because that seems like a safe bet when you’re talking about Taylor.

艾米丽：泰勒还是刚开始。我会说不，因为当你谈论泰勒时，这似乎是一个安全的选择。

Ben: Yeah. For my own safety I’m going to say we are not at peak Taylor.

本：是的。为了我自己的安全，我要说我们还没有达到泰勒的巅峰。

Emily: All right. You heard it here for the record. I think you guys need another Taylor episode. That’s the verdict for the fans. Thank you guys so much and congratulations. I can’t wait to keep listening. Bye guys.

艾米莉：好的。你们在这里听到了。我认为你们需要另一个泰勒的节目。这是粉丝们的判决。非常感谢你们，祝贺你们。我迫不及待想继续收听。再见，大家。

Ben: Thanks, Emily. 本：谢谢，艾米丽。

David: Thank you, Emily. 大卫：谢谢你，艾米丽。

Ben: Thank you so much. All right. David, we’ve had Jamie Dimon, we’ve had Daniel Ek, we’ve had Emily Chang. What is possibly up our sleeve before Mark?

本：非常感谢。好的。大卫，我们有过杰米·戴蒙，我们有过丹尼尔·埃克，我们有过艾米莉·张。在马克之前我们可能还有什么？

David: We won’t keep you waiting too much longer, but we do have one more special guest. One more surprise update in a minute.

大卫：我们不会让你等太久，但我们还有一位特别嘉宾。稍后还有一个惊喜更新。

Ben: Yes. But first, David, this is a great time to tell you a little bit more about our incredible presenting partner, JP Morgan Payments.

本：是的。但首先，大卫，这是一个很好的时机，让我多告诉你一些关于我们令人难以置信的合作伙伴，摩根大通支付。

David: Yes it is. Max and Umar are actually backstage.

大卫：是的。马克斯和乌玛实际上在后台。

Ben: Oh, should we do it live?

本：哦，我们应该现场直播吗？

David: I think we do it live. I think in the spirit of doing it live, please welcome the global co-heads of JP Morgan Payments, Max Neukirchen and Umar Farooq.

大卫：我认为我们应该现场进行。我认为本着现场进行的精神，请欢迎摩根大通支付的全球联合负责人，马克斯·诺伊基尔亨和乌玛尔·法鲁克。

Ben: Hey, you Max. 本：嘿，你好，马克斯。

David: Max. Thank you. 大卫：马克斯。谢谢你。

Ben: Well welcome guys. It is so great to have you here. Listeners have heard us talk about JP Morgan payments all year on Acquired, but could you start maybe just with a quick overview on the business, how big it is, and how important to the world it is?

本：欢迎大家。很高兴你们能来。听众们整年都在《Acquired》上听我们谈论摩根大通的支付业务，但你们能否先简单介绍一下这个业务，它有多大规模，以及对世界有多重要？

Max: Hello everyone. Great to be here with you. Dave and Ben, great to share the stage with you. It’s been a fantastic partnership. You talk about so many successful companies. Look what you have created here.

Max：大家好。很高兴能和你们在这里。Dave 和 Ben，很高兴能和你们同台。这是一个很棒的合作。你们谈论了这么多成功的公司。看看你们在这里创造了什么。

Now, JP Morgan Payments in brief. We basically help companies receive money, hold money, send money, safeguard money against fraud, and take the insights from all of this to grow their business.

现在，简要介绍一下摩根大通支付。我们基本上帮助公司接收资金、持有资金、发送资金、防范欺诈以保障资金安全，并从中获取洞察以发展业务。

That takes many different forms. We help the coffee shop around the corner have a point of sale solution so they can take credit cards, we work with marketplaces or e-commerce platforms, and we work with many large, multinational companies and even other banks. We are in 160 countries and we move about $10 trillion every day. That is, I think, one in every $4 that moves around the globe.

这有多种不同的形式。我们帮助街角的咖啡店提供销售点解决方案，以便他们可以接受信用卡支付，我们与市场或电子商务平台合作，我们还与许多大型跨国公司甚至其他银行合作。我们在 160 个国家运营，每天处理约 10 万亿美元的资金流动。我认为，这相当于全球每 4 美元中就有 1 美元通过我们流动。

David: Wow. 大卫：哇。

Max: It is (I think) probably the largest payments business in the world. As a result, we don’t only become the backbone of many companies, but sometimes of entire economies, which means we have of course in our DNA creativity and problem-solving, but we also focus on stability, resiliency, and safety.

Max：我认为这可能是世界上最大的支付业务。因此，我们不仅成为许多公司的支柱，有时甚至是整个经济体的支柱，这意味着我们当然在我们的 DNA 中拥有创造力和解决问题的能力，但我们也专注于稳定性、弹性和安全性。

This is why so many companies that you feature in Acquired actually our clients, and they simply can’t outgrow us. We are with them every step of the way, from startup all the way to sitting here on the chair.

这就是为什么在 Acquired 中介绍的许多公司实际上是我们的客户，他们根本无法超越我们。我们在他们发展的每一步都与他们同行，从初创公司一直到坐在这里的椅子上。

Ben: The last payment solution you’ll ever need.

本：您所需的最后一个支付解决方案。

Max: Exactly. Max：没错。

David: So speaking of, we’re here in San Francisco in Silicon Valley, the tech and AI capital of the world. How is JP Morgan payments keeping pace with the innovation that is happening in this room, all around us, the businesses that you all are building?

大卫：说到这里，我们现在在旧金山硅谷，世界的科技和人工智能之都。JP Morgan 支付如何跟上在这个房间里、在我们周围发生的创新，以及你们所有人正在建立的业务？

Umar: As Max said, it’s part of our DNA. You have to innovate to survive. We are building stuff for the next 5, 10, 20, 100 years. Within our Onyx business unit, we have the largest financial blockchain life ecosystem on the planet. We do bigger transactions than any blockchain, including the crypto blockchains. We basically have pretty extensive embedded finance solutions where you might be interacting with the platform, but really it’s our rails that are seamlessly serving you.

乌玛尔：正如马克斯所说，这是我们 DNA 的一部分。你必须创新才能生存。我们正在为未来 5 年、10 年、20 年、100 年构建东西。在我们的 Onyx 业务部门中，我们拥有全球最大的金融区块链生命生态系统。我们的交易规模比任何区块链都大，包括加密区块链。我们基本上拥有相当广泛的嵌入式金融解决方案，您可能正在与平台互动，但实际上是我们的轨道在无缝地为您服务。

Then the list goes on and on. Even in AI, which you cannot not mention anymore in the world, we use AI to catch fraud, which you can imagine we’ve got to go against some AI systems on the other side, you need to have some AI of your own. We are building stuff at a different scale and scope. When I think of JP Morgan Payments, we perform miracles and magnitude every single day.

然后这个列表不断延续。即使在人工智能领域，在当今世界中你无法不提及，我们使用人工智能来抓捕欺诈行为，你可以想象我们必须对抗另一方的一些人工智能系统，你需要拥有自己的人工智能。我们正在以不同的规模和范围构建东西。当我想到摩根大通支付时，我们每天都在创造奇迹和规模。

David: Great. Well thank you so much for the great relationship. Thank you.

大卫：太好了。非常感谢您建立的良好关系。谢谢。

Ben: All right. We alluded to one more thing before intermission.

本：好的。我们在中场休息前提到了另一件事。

David: We have one more thing before one more thing.

大卫：在最后一件事之前，我们还有一件事。

Ben: A special treat from a past Acquired guest. One of the things that happened in the insane year that we’ve had was that we had this viral clip from an episode. This never happened in the land of Acquired. It got tens of millions of views and it got picked up by Forbes, Fortune, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal.

本：来自过去一位 Acquired 嘉宾的特别款待。在我们经历的疯狂一年中发生的一件事是，我们有一个片段在一集中走红。这在 Acquired 的世界里从未发生过。它获得了数千万的观看次数，并被《福布斯》、《财富》、《纽约时报》和《华尔街日报》报道。

It actually went so nuts that we felt like it was misunderstood and we felt bad. We pulled the clip down because we felt like it just wasn’t really explaining what the person meant correctly. So we wanted to correct the record and have that person back via video to say it straight and say what he meant. Everyone, Jensen Huang.

实际上事情变得如此疯狂，以至于我们觉得它被误解了，我们感到很糟糕。我们撤下了视频片段，因为我们觉得它并没有正确解释那个人的意思。所以我们想要纠正记录，并通过视频让那个人回来直接说出他的意思。各位，黄仁勋。

Jensen: Hi everybody. It’s great to join you at Acquired Live. Wow. This is really something. I still remember when I met Dave and Ben, they interviewed me right here on this stage at NVIDIA’s headquarters. Now this podcast attracted an incredible audience, so I’m really proud of them.

Jensen：大家好。很高兴能参加 Acquired Live。哇，这真是太棒了。我还记得我第一次见到 Dave 和 Ben 的时候，他们就在 NVIDIA 总部的这个舞台上采访了我。现在这个播客吸引了令人难以置信的观众，所以我为他们感到非常自豪。

One of the questions that they asked me was if I knew what I know now, I think, or something like that, would I start Nvidia all over again? And I said, absolutely not. Of course, it was taken out of context because I was asked about that several times after that. Of course, I would start the company if I knew it would turn out this way.

他们问我的问题之一是，如果我现在知道我所知道的，我想，或者类似的事情，我会不会重新创办 Nvidia？我说，绝对不会。当然，这句话被断章取义了，因为之后我被问了好几次。当然，如果我知道结果会是这样，我会创办这家公司。

The reason why I said what I said has everything to do with being an entrepreneur. Building a company is insanely hard. The number of things that you have to know, the amazing people that you have to surround yourself with, the adversaries and all the smart things that they’re going to do, and the adversities that you’re going to be confronted with over time. The mountain of it in the course of 31 years, if I were to take all of that, all the challenges, all the hardships, and all the pain and suffering of the last 32 years, and I would’ve compressed it into the brain of a 29-year-old, there is no way that that person would’ve started the company.

我之所以这样说，完全是因为身为企业家。创建一家公司是极其困难的。你必须了解的事情数量之多，你必须与之共事的优秀人才，你将要面对的对手及他们将要采取的聪明策略，以及你将要面对的各种逆境。在 31 年的过程中，如果我把所有这些、所有的挑战、所有的困难和过去 32 年的所有痛苦和磨难，压缩到一个 29 岁年轻人的大脑中，那个人绝对不会创办公司。

My point here is the super point of entrepreneurs, which is that your superpowers are partly your ignorance. That you don’t know how hard it is. That’s what I meant.

我的观点是企业家的超级观点，即你的超能力部分来自于你的无知。你不知道这有多难。这就是我的意思。

Ben: Everybody, Jensen Huang. Nice to have that fixed. Feels good.

本：各位，黄仁勋。很高兴解决了这个问题。感觉不错。

David: Yes. We can officially correct the record on that one.

大卫：是的。我们可以正式更正那条记录。

Ben: All right. We have finally arrived, the main event. Tonight is featured some incredible founder-led companies, Jensen from Nvidia, Daniel from Spotify. Next we have the iconic founder-CEO of our time, Mark Zuckerberg.

本：好的。我们终于到了，今晚的重头戏。今晚有一些令人难以置信的创始人领导的公司，来自 Nvidia 的 Jensen，来自 Spotify 的 Daniel。接下来是我们这个时代的标志性创始人兼 CEO，马克·扎克伯格。

David: Mark, it's great to have you here.

大卫：马克，很高兴你能来。

Mark: It's great to be here. I was watching Jensen's video correcting the record, and I was thinking to myself we might need to book the next one of these for all the things I'm going to have to apologize for I'm going to say tonight. Nah, just kidding. I don't apologize anymore.

马克：很高兴来到这里。我在看詹森的视频纠正记录，我在想我们可能需要为我今晚要说的所有事情预定下一个这样的活动来道歉。不，开玩笑的。我不再道歉了。

Ben: We've noticed. 本：我们注意到了。

David: Well, okay. Wait. Here's the question. If you knew what you know today, would you have started Facebook?

大卫：好吧。等等。问题来了。如果你知道今天所知道的，你会创办 Facebook 吗？

Mark: Oh God, I mean, look. I think… yeah. No, I mean, he started it.

马克：哦天哪，我是说，看。我想……是的。不，我是说，是他先开始的。

David: Literally. 大卫：字面意思。

Mark: I think there's something to Jensen's original sentiment, which is that the entrepreneurial journey is very challenging, especially the early days when you're running a startup and there's the sense that what you're doing could just die at any moment and the volatility everything is just getting thrashed so much. You obviously look back and you have all these fond memories, but it was not the most fun part of the journey or the part of my life that I wish I could go back and relive.

马克：我认为詹森最初的观点有一定道理，那就是创业之旅非常具有挑战性，尤其是在创业初期，你经营一家初创公司时，总有一种感觉，觉得你所做的事情随时可能失败，一切都在剧烈波动。显然，当你回顾过去时，会有很多美好的回忆，但这并不是旅程中最有趣的部分，也不是我希望能够回去重温的生活阶段。

I do think that there's something to what Jensen was saying that I thought was very honest. When I heard him say it the first time I was like yeah, I get that. I think there are a lot of people for whom, if you knew how painful it would be along the way, you wouldn't get started. But then I think that that's one of the things that's good about human nature, is you can underestimate how painful things are going to be, so that way you can go and do good things.

我确实认为詹森所说的有些道理，我觉得他非常诚实。当我第一次听到他说这话时，我就想，是的，我理解。我认为有很多人，如果你知道过程中会有多痛苦，你就不会开始。但我认为这也是人性中好的一面，你可以低估事情会有多痛苦，这样你就可以去做一些好事。

David: Well, on that topic, we have a lot to talk about. I think this is actually very appropriate. First, we have to ask you about your shirt and what you're wearing.

大卫：关于这个话题，我们有很多话要说。我认为这实际上非常合适。首先，我们得问问你的衬衫和你穿的衣服。

Mark: I started working with people to design some of my own clothes. So I figured we're going to design eyewear, we're going to design other stuff that people wear. Let's get good at this.

马克：我开始和一些人合作设计我自己的衣服。所以我想我们要设计眼镜，我们要设计其他人们穿的东西。让我们在这方面变得出色。

This one I actually worked with this great fashion designer, Mike Amiri, and he's got a great story, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're doing one of these with him one day. I've started working on this series of shirts with some of my favorite classical sayings on them. So this one is 'pathemathos,' learning through suffering. It's a little family saying, and also Aeschylus...

实际上，我与这位出色的时装设计师 Mike Amiri 合作过，他有一个很棒的故事，所以如果有一天你和他一起做这样的事情，我不会感到惊讶。我开始制作一系列印有我最喜欢的经典语录的衬衫。这件是“pathemathos”，通过痛苦学习。这是一个小小的家族格言，也是埃斯库罗斯的...

David: Was that your family saying growing up or is that your family now?

大卫：那是你成长过程中家人常说的话，还是你现在的家人？

Mark: No, its just something my sister said.

马克：不，只是我妹妹说的。

Ben: Well, no. Let's pull that thread. No pun intended, I promise. What does learning through suffering mean to you?

本：嗯，不是的。让我们深入探讨一下。绝无双关，我保证。通过痛苦学习对你意味着什么？

Mark: I think you learn what matters to you, what's important, and your place in the world through repeatedly hitting your head against different challenges. I think that that is the journey. That's the entrepreneurial journey. It's also, I think, part of the beauty of building things.

马克：我认为你通过不断地迎接不同的挑战来学习对你重要的事情、重要的东西以及你在世界中的位置。我认为这就是旅程。这就是创业的旅程。我也认为，这也是构建事物的美丽之一。

But this is something that Jensen talks a lot about too. I feel like when you go to start a company, everyone writes down what they would like their values to be. But values are not what you write down on the wall. It's like your lived behaviors. You only really learn what you care about when you have to make hard trade-offs and face challenges. So, yeah, you learn the most important things through facing challenges.

但这也是詹森经常谈论的事情。我觉得当你开始创办公司时，每个人都会写下他们希望的价值观。但价值观不是你写在墙上的东西。它更像是你的实际行为。只有在你必须做出艰难的取舍并面对挑战时，你才真正了解你在乎什么。所以，是的，你通过面对挑战学到最重要的东西。

David: Well, speaking of facing challenges, we want to talk about a number of those. We counted. By our count, I think you have faced more existential challenges than any meaningful company in history through your first 20 years.

David：好吧，说到面对挑战，我们想谈谈其中的一些。我们统计过。根据我们的统计，我认为在头 20 年里，你们面临的生存挑战比历史上任何有意义的公司都多。

Mark: It's a dubious distinction.

马克：这是一个可疑的荣誉。

Ben: We will make our case to you of why and enumerate them.

本：我们将向您陈述我们的理由并列举它们。

Mark: I kind of think like that old Nike Michael Jordan ad where he's talking about how he's failed over and over and over again and that's how he succeeds. That one really resonates with me, too.

马克：我有点像那则老的耐克迈克尔·乔丹广告，他在里面谈到自己一次又一次地失败，这就是他成功的原因。那段广告也让我感同身受。

David: Thanks to you guys, I got a pair of these this summer and I genuinely love them. Tell us the story of how these came to be.

大卫：多亏了你们，我今年夏天买了一双这个，我真的很喜欢。告诉我们这些是如何诞生的故事。

Mark: Thanks, I'm excited about them, too. At Meta, we've been building social experiences for 20 years now. Originally, it took the form of a website, then mobile apps. But the thing is, I never thought about us as a social media company. We're not a social app company, we are a social connection company. We talk about what we're doing is building the future of human connection, and that's not only going to be constrained over time to what you can do on a phone, on a small screen.

马克：谢谢，我也对此感到兴奋。在 Meta，我们已经构建社交体验 20 年了。最初，它以网站的形式出现，然后是移动应用程序。但问题是，我从未将我们视为一家社交媒体公司。我们不是一家社交应用公司，我们是一家社交连接公司。我们谈论的是我们正在做的是构建人类连接的未来，这不仅仅会随着时间的推移局限于你在手机上、小屏幕上能做的事情。

When we got started, we were like a handful of kids. We weren't able—we didn't have the resources at the time—to go define whatever the next computing platform is. Also, Facebook originally got started around the same time as a bunch of the early smartphones and those platforms got started. So we didn't really get to play any role in developing that platform.

当我们刚开始时，我们就像一群孩子。我们当时没有能力——我们没有资源——去定义下一个计算平台是什么。此外，Facebook 最初开始的时候，正值一批早期智能手机和那些平台的兴起。所以我们并没有在开发那个平台中扮演任何角色。

One of the big themes for the next chapter of what we do is I want to be able to build what I think are the ideal experiences, not just what you're allowed to build on some platform that someone else built, but what is actually, if you can think from first principles, what is the ideal social experience. What you would like to have is not a phone that you look down at, that takes your attention away from the things and the people around you, not just a small screen.

我们下一阶段工作的一个重要主题是，我希望能够构建我认为的理想体验，而不仅仅是在别人构建的平台上允许你构建的东西，而是如果你能从基本原则出发思考，什么才是理想的社交体验。你想要的不是一个让你低头看的手机，它会让你分心，远离周围的事物和人，而不仅仅是一个小屏幕。

自我更新在某些系统发挥的很充分，S&P500。

I think what you ideally have is glasses and through the glasses there's one part of it where the glasses can see what you see and they can hear what you hear, and in doing so they can be kind of the perfect AI assistant for you because they have context on what you're doing.

我认为理想的情况是你有一副眼镜，通过这副眼镜，有一部分可以看到你所看到的，听到你所听到的，这样它们就可以成为你完美的 AI 助手，因为它们了解你正在做的事情的背景。

But then part of that is also that the glasses can project images, basically like holograms, out into the world, and that way your social experiences with other people aren't constrained to these little interactions you can have on a phone screen.

但这也部分是因为眼镜可以将图像投射到外界，基本上像全息图，这样你与他人的社交体验就不再局限于手机屏幕上的小互动。

In the not-so-distant future, you can imagine because you guys have demo'd some of the stuff that we've done, a version of this where we're having a conversation like this, but maybe one of us isn't even here. They're just like a hologram and we have glasses. There's the question of delivering a realistic sense of presence.

在不久的将来，你们可以想象，因为你们已经演示过我们所做的一些东西，这种情况的一个版本是我们正在进行这样的对话，但也许我们中的一个人甚至不在这里。他们就像一个全息图，而我们戴着眼镜。这里有一个问题是如何传递一种真实的存在感。

There's something magical in the realm of building social experiences around the feeling of human presence and being there with another person and this physical perception where we're very physical beings.

在围绕人类存在感和与他人在一起的感觉构建社交体验的领域中，有某种神奇之处，以及这种我们作为非常物理存在的物理感知。

People like to intellectualize everything, but a lot of our experience is very physical. This physical sense of presence that you are with another person doing things in the physical world is something that you're going to be able to do through holograms, through glasses, without being taken away from whatever else you're doing. Just kind of have that mixed in with the rest of the world.

人们喜欢将一切理性化，但我们很多的体验是非常物理的。这种与另一个人在物理世界中一起做事情的物理存在感，是你可以通过全息图、眼镜来实现的，而不会被从你正在做的其他事情中抽离出来。只是将其与世界的其他部分混合在一起。

It's going to be, I think, the ultimate digital social experience. I think it's also going to be the ultimate incarnation of AI, because you're going to have conversations where it's like there are some people. Maybe I'm physically here, there's a person, you're a hologram there, there's an AI that is embodied as someone is there, and the glasses will enable this.

我认为这将是终极的数字社交体验。我也认为这将是 AI 的终极化身，因为你将进行一些对话，就像有些人一样。也许我在这里，那里有一个人，你是一个全息图，那里有一个 AI 化身为某人，而眼镜将使这一切成为可能。

How are we going after this, building this? This is some huge project, we've been working on it for 10 years, and there are a lot of different challenges to solve to get there. You have to build a novel display stack.

我们要如何继续推进和构建这个项目？这是一个庞大的项目，我们已经为此工作了 10 年，并且有许多不同的挑战需要解决。你必须构建一个新颖的显示堆栈。

类似于chatGPT，这项技术的壁垒在哪里？

These aren't just screens like the kind that are in phones. There's this long lineage. They're connected to the screens that have been in TVs and monitors and things for a long time. There's been this massive optimization of the supply chain. There's a brand new display stack around holographic displays that basically need to get created.

这些不仅仅是像手机中那样的屏幕。它们有着悠久的历史。它们与长期以来用于电视和显示器的屏幕相连。供应链已经进行了大规模的优化。围绕全息显示器有一个全新的显示堆栈，基本上需要被创建。

Then they need to be put into glasses, they need to be miniaturized, and in the glasses, need to fit chips, microphones, speakers, cameras, eye tracking to be able to understand what you're doing, batteries to make it last all day.

然后它们需要被放入眼镜中，需要被微型化，并且在眼镜中，需要安装芯片、麦克风、扬声器、摄像头、眼动追踪以便了解你的行为，还需要电池以便能持续一整天。

Ben: Operate on new novel RF protocols.

本：操作新的小说 RF 协议。

Mark: Yeah, it's a pretty big challenge, so let's go try to go for the big thing. We've been working on that for a while, and we're pretty close to being able to show off the first prototype that we have of that, and I'm really excited about that.

马克：是的，这是一个相当大的挑战，所以让我们尝试去追求这个大目标。我们已经为此努力了一段时间，我们离展示我们的第一个原型已经很接近了，我对此感到非常兴奋。

At the same time, we also came at it from this lens of, all right. That's a lot of new technology that needs to get developed, a lot to pack into a form factor, because the glasses have to be good-looking too. What if we just constrain ourselves, like we're going to work with a great partner, EssilorLuxottica? They make Ray-Ban, they make a lot of the iconic glasses. Let's see what we can fit into glasses today and make them as useful as possible.

同时，我们也从这个角度出发，好吧。这需要开发很多新技术，要将很多东西装入一个外形，因为眼镜也必须好看。假如我们只是限制自己，比如我们将与一个伟大的合作伙伴 EssilorLuxottica 合作？他们制造 Ray-Ban，他们制造很多标志性的眼镜。让我们看看今天能在眼镜中装入什么，并使其尽可能有用。

Actually, I thought when we were getting started with those that it was almost like a practice project for the ultimate AR.

实际上，我认为当我们开始那些项目时，这几乎就像是为最终的 AR 做的练习项目。

Ben: Which, let's be clear, that's what you thought Facebook was.

本：明确一点，这就是你认为 Facebook 是的东西。

Mark: That's true. Yeah, it did.

马克：确实如此。是的，确实如此。

Ben: Like for your real startup someday.

本：就像你未来真正的创业公司一样。

Mark: Let's go on a tangent there for a second. I started Facebook in school, came out to Silicon Valley with Dustin and a handful of people working on it at the time, and we did that because Silicon Valley is where all the startups came from.

马克：让我们稍微偏离一下话题。我在学校创办了 Facebook，然后和达斯汀以及当时的一小群人来到硅谷，我们这样做是因为硅谷是所有初创公司诞生的地方。

I remember we got off the plane, we were driving down 101, we're like wow, eBay, Yahoo, this is amazing. There are all these great companies. One day, maybe we'll build a company like this. I'd already started Facebook and I was like surely the project that we're working on now is not a company.

我记得我们下了飞机，沿着 101 公路开车，我们感叹道，哇，eBay，雅虎，真是太棒了。有这么多伟大的公司。也许有一天，我们也会建立这样一家公司。我那时已经创办了 Facebook，我想我们现在正在做的项目肯定不是一家公司。

Ben: And Facebook had some scale at this point.

本：而且此时 Facebook 已经有了一定的规模。

Mark: Oh no, no. It was a great project. I just didn't have the ambition to turn it into a company at the time. That just kind of happened. But anyway, a lot of hard work obviously, but just at the time I don't think this is it.

马克：哦，不，不。这是一个很棒的项目。我当时只是没有雄心把它变成一家公司。那只是自然而然发生的。但无论如何，显然付出了很多努力，但当时我不认为这就是它。

David: Well, that's your answer of would you have started? You actually didn't try to start Facebook.

大卫：好吧，那就是你是否会开始的答案？你实际上并没有尝试创办 Facebook。

Mark: I didn't know. The glasses, though, we thought we want to get working with EssilorLuxottica so we can start building more and more advanced glasses. They're really good. They look good. And then the massive transformation in AI.

马克：我不知道。不过，我们想要与 EssilorLuxottica 合作开发眼镜，这样我们就可以开始制造越来越先进的眼镜。它们真的很好。看起来不错。然后是 AI 的巨大变革。

一开始就跟别人合作，可能是个麻烦。

Ben: For listeners, let's just be really clear. You guys shipped this product that I'm holding before LLMs, or at least before the public consciousness was aware of the ChatGPT moment, and these were not manufactured and shipped as an AI device. That came later when they were already in market.

本：对于听众来说，我们要非常明确。你们在LLMs之前，或者至少在公众意识到 ChatGPT 时刻之前，就已经发货了我手中的这款产品，而且这些产品并不是作为 AI 设备制造和发货的。那是在它们已经上市之后才发生的。

Mark: A few years ago, I would have predicted that AR holograms would have been available before full-scale AI. Now, I think it's probably going to be the other order. Now it's like all right, great. Well, this is actually a great product because it's got the cameras so it can see what you see. It's got the microphone. It's got the speakers. You can talk to it.

马克：几年前，我会预测 AR 全息图会在全面 AI 之前出现。现在，我认为可能会是相反的顺序。现在就像，好吧，太好了。这实际上是一个很棒的产品，因为它有摄像头，所以可以看到你看到的东西。它有麦克风。它有扬声器。你可以和它对话。

I remember calling Alex Himel, the guy who runs the product group, running into him and I'm like, hey, I think we should probably pivot this and make it so that Meta AI is the primary feature of it. Then I remember I came in the next week and they built a prototype of it on Tuesday. It was like all right, good, yeah, this is good, this is going to be a very successful product.

我记得打电话给 Alex Himel，他是负责产品组的人，碰到他时我说，嘿，我觉得我们应该调整一下，让 Meta AI 成为它的主要功能。然后我记得我下周进来时，他们在星期二就做了一个原型。就像，好吧，好的，是的，这很好，这将是一个非常成功的产品。

David: He told us a much more high-stakes version of that story.

大卫：他给我们讲了一个更高风险版本的那个故事。

Ben: I was on the highway with my kids. I get this call on a Saturday from Mark and he's like, those glasses, could we put Meta AI in them running on device, and ship that soon so we can see if that's a good idea or not?

本：我当时和我的孩子们在高速公路上。我在一个星期六接到马克的电话，他说，那些眼镜，我们能不能在设备上运行 Meta AI，并尽快出货，这样我们就能看看这是不是个好主意？

Mark: Yeah, that tracks. That's what I just said. Sounds right.

马克：是的，没错。我刚才就是这么说的。听起来对。

Ben: Okay, so thank you for opening up with a story. The question that I would like to try to answer tonight is why has Meta worked as spectacularly well as it has? One of the most valuable companies in the world through multiple iterations, multiple technology waves fighting off, maybe let's name all the waves in which people said, oh, Facebook and Meta are so screwed, and yet that is not the way it looks today.

本：好的，谢谢你用一个故事来开场。今晚我想尝试回答的问题是，为什么 Meta 能够如此出色地运作？作为世界上最有价值的公司之一，经历了多次迭代和多次技术浪潮，抵挡住了，也许我们可以列举所有那些人们曾说 Facebook 和 Meta 完蛋了的浪潮，但今天看起来并不是这样。

David: MySpace, Twitter Gen 1, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, TikTok.

大卫：MySpace，Twitter Gen 1，Instagram，Snapchat，WhatsApp，TikTok。

Ben: Apple app tracking transparency.

本：苹果应用追踪透明度。

David: ATT, you could put in its own whole category, and now ChatGPT. That's nine.

大卫：ATT，你可以把它放在自己的整个类别中，现在是 ChatGPT。这是九个。

Ben: There is a widely held public narrative every single time—Snapchat discover stories. There's something where people are like, oh, the cool thing that Facebook (the company) did is just obsolete now, and they're going to go away. You very much haven't gone away. What do you think is the through line of the DNA of the company that allows you to keep winning?

本：每次都有一个广泛持有的公众叙述——Snapchat 发现故事。总有一些事情让人们觉得，哦，Facebook（公司）做的酷东西现在已经过时了，他们将会消失。你们显然并没有消失。你认为公司能够持续成功的 DNA 主线是什么？

Mark: I think it's that we're a technology company that is focused on human connection, not a specific type of app. We never thought about ourselves as a website or a social network or anything like that. For me, building this kind of glasses to enable the future of people being able to feel present with another person no matter where they actually physically are, is the natural continuation of the kind of apps that we build today. But it depends on how you define what you are.

马克：我认为我们是一家专注于人类连接的科技公司，而不是某种特定类型的应用程序。我们从未将自己视为一个网站或社交网络或类似的东西。对我来说，制造这种眼镜以实现人们能够感受到与另一个人同在的未来，无论他们实际身在何处，都是我们今天所构建的应用程序的自然延续。但这取决于你如何定义你自己。

这个愿景的解释不错。

Then you need to figure out well, how do you give yourself the competence to actually go do that? That's where I think being a strong technology company comes in, because a lot of companies think about themselves too narrowly in terms of, okay, well, we're this one thing, and the reason why we can build all these things is because we have a really strong technology foundation.

那么你需要很好地弄清楚，如何让自己具备实际去做这件事的能力？我认为这就是成为一家强大的科技公司发挥作用的地方，因为很多公司对自己的定位过于狭隘，认为我们就是这一件事，而我们之所以能够构建所有这些东西，是因为我们有一个非常强大的技术基础。

Some of that is just me and how I think about stuff. I was an engineer before I got started. I mostly took systems engineering–type classes when I was in college. You talk about Friendster and MySpace and all the scaling challenges they had, doing the graph calculations of like all right. Do you know this person? Should you show them your page?

有些只是我个人以及我对事物的看法。在我开始之前，我是一名工程师。我在大学时主要学习系统工程类课程。你谈到 Friendster 和 MySpace 以及他们遇到的所有扩展挑战，进行图形计算，比如说，你认识这个人吗？你应该向他们展示你的页面吗？

Ben: Friends of friends of friends.

本：朋友的朋友的朋友。

Mark: Yeah. 马克：是的。

David: Actually, can you take us back and we want to ask you the story of that time. It seems quaint now, Friendster, Myspace, but you studied computer science, graph networking, social graphs. That is a very, very difficult computational calculation.

David：实际上，你能带我们回到那个时候吗？我们想问你那个时候的故事。现在看起来有些古雅，Friendster，Myspace，但你研究了计算机科学、图形网络、社交图谱。这是一个非常非常困难的计算计算。

Mark: I think it's a combination of a product question and a technology question. I think you can define the product in such a general way that the technology becomes basically impossible to solve. You want to have a smart product definition, but then you want to be competent and better than everyone else at the technology.

马克：我认为这是一个产品问题和技术问题的结合。我认为你可以用一种非常笼统的方式来定义产品，以至于技术基本上变得无法解决。你想要有一个聪明的产品定义，但同时你也想在技术上比其他人更有能力和更出色。

成功离不开一个聪明的假设。

I think that that's something that we've held ourselves to and built a good organization around, and it's one of the things that I observed as soon as I came out to the Valley, that all these companies that called themselves technology companies were not really set up that way. The companies I was talking about, it's like the CEO wasn't technical, the board of directors had no one technical on it. They had one dude on the management team who was the head of engineering, who was technical, and everyone else wasn't. All right, if that's your team, then you're not a technology company.

我认为这是我们一直坚持的原则，并围绕它建立了一个良好的组织，这是我刚来到硅谷时观察到的事情之一，那些自称为科技公司的公司实际上并不是这样设置的。我所谈论的公司，比如说，CEO 不是技术出身，董事会中没有技术人员。他们的管理团队中只有一个人是工程主管，是技术出身的，其他人都不是。好吧，如果这是你的团队，那么你就不是一家科技公司。

I think one of the things that I've always been pretty careful about is I actually want a lot of the people on our management team, it's like split mostly people running either these big product groups who come up through different technical pathways of the company, and I think that there's like a balance. You don't want everyone to be an engineer because there's other things that matter too. But if you don't have enough of your share of the company as engineers, then you're not a technology company.

我认为我一直非常谨慎的一件事是，我实际上希望我们管理团队中的很多人，主要是那些负责这些大型产品组的人，他们通过公司不同的技术途径成长起来，我认为这是一种平衡。你不希望每个人都是工程师，因为还有其他重要的事情。但如果公司中没有足够比例的工程师，那么你就不是一家科技公司。

I think that that also is important to the board. I think just like in terms of how you weigh decisions and culturally, things inside the company matters a lot. But I think that's one of the things that has been really fundamental. We're able to go from platform to platform and do these different things because we've invested and cared about the underlying technology.

我认为这对董事会也很重要。我认为，就像在权衡决策和文化方面，公司内部的事情非常重要。但我认为这是一个非常基本的因素。我们能够从一个平台转到另一个平台并做这些不同的事情，因为我们投入并关注了底层技术。

The product experiences that we build on top of that are an implementation and they matter. For that, I think we also are a pretty curious and learning-focused organization where I view the product strategy less as any one specific thing and more as how do we iterate and learn as quickly as possible how to make each thing better for the people we're trying to serve. I define our strategies. We can learn faster than every other company. We're going to win.

我们在此基础上构建的产品体验是一种实现，它们很重要。为此，我认为我们也是一个相当好奇和以学习为中心的组织，在这里我将产品战略视为如何尽快迭代和学习，以便为我们试图服务的人改进每一件事，而不是任何一个具体的东西。我定义我们的战略。我们可以比其他公司更快地学习。我们会赢。

We're going to build a better product than everyone else because we're going to get it out first or early. We're going to have a good feedback loop. We're going to get a bunch of feedback. We're going to learn what people like better than other people. By the time you get to whether it's version three or four or five—they're not even discrete versions because you ship so frequently—you just learn faster.

我们将打造比其他人更好的产品，因为我们会更早或最先推出。我们将拥有良好的反馈循环。我们会收到大量反馈。我们将了解人们更喜欢什么，而不是其他人。等到你到达第三版、第四版或第五版时——它们甚至不是独立的版本，因为你发布得如此频繁——你只是学习得更快。

I think that's basically the formula. Be a technology company, build good foundation, learn from what people are focused on in the world, and just iterate as quickly as you can.

我认为这基本上就是公式。成为一家科技公司，打好基础，学习人们在世界上关注的事物，并尽可能快速地迭代。

Ben: In one of my research calls to prep for this, someone described you as a master strategist, which we all acknowledge at this point.

本：在我为此做准备的一次研究电话中，有人称你为战略大师，这一点我们都承认。

Mark: Except for all the stuff that I just thought was not going to be that important, that ended up actually being the most important. Part of it is like okay, you want to set up the game so that way you optimize, you create your luck.

马克：除了我认为不太重要的那些东西，结果它们实际上变得最重要。部分原因是你想要设置游戏，以便优化并创造你的运气。

David: This is what Jensen told us. The apple's going to fall from the tree in some direction, and if you just set up the game that you have a hand close enough to catch it.

大卫：这是詹森告诉我们的。苹果会朝某个方向从树上掉下来，如果你只是设置游戏，让你的手足够靠近去接住它。

Ben: The comment that someone made to me was the reason Mark is such a good strategist is because he plays the company as if it's a turn-based strategy gam. He just makes sure he gets more turns than anybody else, and he makes sure that he learns more from each turn than the next player does. Do you feel like that encapsulates Meta's product development?

本：有人对我说，马克之所以是个优秀的战略家，是因为他把公司当作回合制策略游戏来玩。他只是确保自己比其他人有更多的回合，并确保从每个回合中学到的东西比下一个玩家更多。你觉得这是否概括了 Meta 的产品开发？

Mark: I do like turn-based strategy.

马克：我确实喜欢回合制策略。

Ben: But it does feel like the way that you make bets is like if we have great engineering, then that can take care of the speed part. That's many iterations or multiple at-bats and then the—

本：但感觉你下注的方式是，如果我们有出色的工程，那么就可以解决速度问题。这是多次迭代或多次尝试，然后——

Mark: Well, great engineering and speed and iteration are actually two different values. They're not necessarily at odds, but I think there are a lot of great engineering organizations that try to build things that are super high quality and have good competence around that. But there's a certain personality that goes with taking your stuff and putting it out there before it's fully polished.

马克：嗯，优秀的工程和速度与迭代实际上是两个不同的价值观。它们不一定是对立的，但我认为有很多优秀的工程组织试图构建质量非常高的东西，并在这方面具备良好的能力。但有一种特定的个性是将你的东西在尚未完全打磨之前就推出。

I'm not saying that our strategy or approach on this is the only one that works. I think in a lot of ways we're the opposite of Apple and clearly their stuff has worked really well too. They take this approach, we're going to take a long time, we're going to polish it, we're going to put it out, and maybe for the stuff that they're doing that works, maybe that just fits with their culture.

我并不是说我们的策略或方法是唯一有效的。我认为在很多方面我们与苹果正好相反，显然他们的东西也运作得很好。他们采取这种方法，我们会花很长时间，我们会打磨它，我们会推出它，也许对于他们正在做的那些有效的东西，这可能正好符合他们的文化。

For us, I think that there are a lot of conversations that we have internally where you're almost at the line of being embarrassed about what you put out, because you want to put stuff out early enough so you can get good feedback. You obviously want to test things that are reasonable hypotheses, so if it's so ineffective, then you're not testing a good hypothesis. That doesn't work.

对我们来说，我认为我们内部有很多对话，你几乎到了对自己发布的内容感到尴尬的地步，因为你希望尽早发布内容以获得良好的反馈。显然，你希望测试合理的假设，所以如果它如此无效，那么你就没有在测试一个好的假设。那是行不通的。

But I do think a lot of the conversations that we have are like okay, well, we can get this to be a lot better if we work on it for another couple of months or whatever. I do just think that you want to really have a culture that values shipping, getting things out, and getting feedback more than needing always to get great positive accolades from people when you put stuff out. I think if you want to wait until you get praised all the time, you're missing a bunch of the time when you could have learned a bunch of useful stuff and then incorporated that into the next version you were going to ship.

但我确实认为，我们进行的许多对话都是这样的：好吧，如果我们再花几个月的时间或其他时间来改进它，我们可以让它变得更好。我确实认为，你需要真正建立一种重视发布、推出产品和获取反馈的文化，而不是总是需要在发布东西时获得人们的高度赞扬。我认为，如果你想等到总是得到赞美，你就错过了很多可以学到有用东西的时间，然后将其融入到你将要发布的下一个版本中。

本分和自我更新并不矛盾，这个解释反映了性格上的缺陷。

Ben: And it's just about making sure what the thing that the company is known for or its brand can withstand all the little damage that you do to it by shipping stuff that's not quite ready.

本：这就是要确保公司以其品牌闻名的东西能够承受因发货不太成熟的产品而造成的所有小损害。

Mark: I would like to hope that it's not damaging to the brand, but…

马克：我希望这不会对品牌造成损害，但……

Ben: Innately, it is. When you're like oh, I feel bad because I shipped a product that wasn't good enough. you're sort of—

本：本质上是这样的。当你觉得哦，我感觉不好，因为我发布了一个不够好的产品。你有点——

Mark: I don't want to overstate it. We don't ship things that we think are bad, but we also want to make sure that we're shipping things that are early enough that we can get good feedback to see what they're going to be most used for. Like I think a lot of the AI stuff that we're building now, for example, it's pretty clear that AI is going to be transformative for a lot of different things. It is actually less clear what are going to be the initial use cases for a lot of these things that are super valuable.

马克：我不想夸大其词。我们不会发布我们认为不好的东西，但我们也希望确保我们发布的东西足够早，以便我们能获得良好的反馈，看看它们将主要用于什么。我认为我们现在构建的很多人工智能东西，比如说，很明显人工智能将对许多不同的事物产生变革性影响。实际上，哪些将成为这些非常有价值的东西的初始用例还不太清楚。

Part of it is like okay, you put something out. You want to collect feedback and where it's resonating. Now, if what you put out is bad, then you're not going to collect good data because people aren't going to use it for anything because it sucks. But I do think that you have hypotheses for what people might really want to use it for, and they're not all going to be right and you want to go early enough on that as more.

部分情况是这样的，你发布了一些东西。你想收集反馈并了解它的反响。如果你发布的东西不好，那么你就不会收集到好的数据，因为人们不会使用它，因为它很糟糕。但我确实认为你有关于人们可能真正想用它做什么的假设，而这些假设并不全是正确的，你希望尽早进行更多的尝试。

Ben: I'm building to this question of, to you is product creation an act of invention or discovery? Like is David always inside that marble? And you just need the very best tooling and ability to get things in market and get feedback, to discover the statue of David:? Or do you conceive of David in your head and I'm like I'm going to make this and put it in the world?

本：我正在构建这个问题，对你来说，产品创造是发明还是发现的行为？就像大卫总是在那块大理石里面吗？你只需要最好的工具和能力将产品推向市场并获得反馈，以发现大卫雕像？还是你在脑海中构思大卫，然后决定我要制作这个并将其推向世界？

Mark: Does it have to be one or the other? I think it's a combination. I think you're basically taking some kind of values, either values that you have or a value for something that you believe should exist in the world, and trying to build something that's aligned with that, while trying to match it up with what is going to resonate the most with people.

马克：非此即彼吗？我认为是两者的结合。我认为你基本上是在采用某种价值观，无论是你拥有的价值观，还是你认为应该在世界上存在的某种价值观，并试图建立与之相符的东西，同时努力使其与人们最能产生共鸣的东西相匹配。

I think if you just do the latter, then I think you just don't have enough conviction to see through hard things, and if you just do the former, then you probably don't get to product/market fit or optimize what you do because you're not focused enough on your customers. I think both probably matter. Yeah.

我认为如果你只做后者，那么我认为你就没有足够的信念去完成困难的事情；如果你只做前者，那么你可能无法达到产品/市场契合或优化你的工作，因为你对客户的关注不够。我认为两者可能都很重要。是的。

既和又的结合体。

Ben: As I pour through all these historical examples, there's the market discovers. Some other participant in the market discovers the stories format, and suddenly the whole world is like oh my God, that's the social interaction mechanism. And that's like a pretty pure discovery where you have products that have stories. They perform very well. That's been discovered.

本：当我仔细研究所有这些历史例子时，市场发现了。市场中的其他参与者发现了故事格式，突然之间，全世界都觉得，哦天哪，那就是社交互动机制。这就像一个非常纯粹的发现，你有带有故事的产品。它们表现得非常好。这已经被发现了。

But there's other times it feels like everything you're trying to do in Reality Labs, all $50-plus billion that you've put into it, is like we're going to freaking will this thing into existence because I have an idea of the way that I want the world to be. I'm not really asking for that much feedback. I'm putting it in the world.

但有时感觉你在 Reality Labs 所做的一切，投入的超过 500 亿美元，就像我们要拼命将这个东西变为现实，因为我有一个关于我想要的世界的想法。我并不是真的在寻求太多反馈。我正在将它投入世界。

Mark: Well it's a combination. I mean, I think that there's certainly a lot of things that we've invented or created for the first time, I mean like in 2006, when we built the first version of News Feed. Before that, social networks were basically profiles and then we were like, hey, people actually kind of want to get the updates and let's show them that, and if we rank them, then we can. You know, there's so many updates that this can help people parse through that quickly, and today it's like hard to imagine any social product without a feed. So I think that that's obviously, there's some of these things are sort of seminal I don't want to call it an invention, but like patterns that we, that we basically established first, and then some of them are ones that other people did where we take pride in learning from what is working in the world.

马克：嗯，这是一个组合。我是说，我认为我们确实发明或创造了很多东西，比如在 2006 年，我们构建了第一个版本的新闻推送。在那之前，社交网络基本上就是个人资料，然后我们想，人们其实想要获取更新信息，那我们就展示给他们，如果我们对其进行排序，那么我们就可以。你知道，有这么多更新，这可以帮助人们快速浏览，而今天很难想象任何社交产品没有推送。所以我认为这显然是一些基本的东西，我不想称之为发明，但像是我们基本上首先建立的模式，然后其中一些是其他人做的，我们为从世界上有效的东西中学习而感到自豪。

You know, we're not embarrassed about learning from things that other people discovered that were good first, and then we build a better version of it and, um, I mean, I think that that's...you know, no one company is going to invent everything, right? I think if you don't invent anything, then it's hard to to kind of be a successful company.

你知道，我们并不羞于从其他人首先发现的好东西中学习，然后我们构建一个更好的版本，我的意思是，我认为这是……你知道，没有一家公司会发明所有东西，对吧？我认为如果你什么都不发明，那么就很难成为一家成功的公司。

But I do think that there's a mix of this. There are more smart people outside of your company than inside your company. If you're not learning from what's going on in the market, then you're missing a lot of opportunities to get valuable signal from people in the community and customers about what they want you to be doing.

但我确实认为这其中有一个混合。公司外的聪明人比公司内的多。如果你没有从市场上发生的事情中学习，那么你就错过了很多机会，从社区和客户那里获得关于他们希望你做什么的有价值的信号。

David: Which speaks to the thesis of Facebook as a technology company.

大卫：这说明了 Facebook 作为一家科技公司的论点。

Ben: Meta. 本：Meta。

David: Meta is a technology company. We'll get to that later. Ben and I have been having a conversation. I want to take this to open source and open source technology and its importance to you, and Ben posited first to me and then to many other people in our calls over the last couple of weeks that Meta has been the largest 'Ben:eficiary' of open source technology in the modern world and I'm curious if you would agree with that and if you would comment on your relationship to open source.

大卫：Meta 是一家科技公司。我们稍后会谈到这个。Ben 和我一直在进行对话。我想把这个话题引向开源和开源技术及其对你的重要性，Ben 首先向我提出，然后在过去几周的电话中向许多人提出，Meta 是现代世界中开源技术的最大“受益者”，我很好奇你是否同意这一点，以及你是否愿意评论你与开源的关系。

Mark: I think almost all of the major technology companies at this point are primarily using open source stacks. So yeah, I mean, I don't know, we wouldn't have been able to get built without open source. I think probably that's true for any new company that's been created since, like I don't know, the late 1990s or something. For us, open source has been important and valuable.

马克：我认为在这个阶段，几乎所有主要的科技公司主要都在使用开源技术栈。所以，是的，我的意思是，我不知道，如果没有开源，我们可能无法建立。我认为这可能适用于自 1990 年代末以来创建的任何新公司。对我们来说，开源一直是重要且有价值的。

David: I mean, you were the first big company built on the LAMP stack.

大卫：我的意思是，你们是第一个建立在 LAMP 堆栈上的大公司。

Mark: Yeah, yeah, no, and it's great. It makes it super easy to develop stuff quickly and iterate quickly. But we've also had an interesting relationship with this because sequentially, as a company, we came after Google. Google was the first of the great companies that built this distributed computing infrastructure. So they came first. They were like, all right, let's keep this proprietary because it's a big advantage for us. And then we're like all right, we need that too, but we built it. And then we're like, ok, not an advantage for us because Google already has that, so we might as well just make it open. And by making it open, then you basically get this whole community of people building around it.

马克：是的，是的，没错，这很棒。它使得快速开发和快速迭代变得非常容易。但我们与此也有一个有趣的关系，因为作为一家公司，我们是在谷歌之后出现的。谷歌是第一家建立这种分布式计算基础设施的伟大公司。所以他们是第一个。他们就像，好吧，让我们保持这个专有，因为这对我们来说是一个巨大的优势。然后我们就像，好吧，我们也需要这个，但我们自己建了。然后我们就像，好吧，这对我们来说不是优势，因为谷歌已经有了，所以我们不妨把它开放。通过开放它，你基本上就得到了一个围绕它构建的整个社区。

So it wasn't going to help us compete with Google for any of the stuff that we were doing to have that technology, but what we were able to do with things like Open Compute were, get it to become the industry standard. Now you have like all these other you know, cloud service platforms that you know basically use Open Compute and because of that, the supply chain is standard around, standardized around our designs, which means that it's way more supply, way cheaper to produce.

所以，拥有那项技术并不会帮助我们在我们所做的任何事情上与谷歌竞争，但我们能够通过像 Open Compute 这样的东西做到的是，让它成为行业标准。现在你知道，所有这些其他的云服务平台基本上都在使用 Open Compute，因此，供应链围绕我们的设计标准化，这意味着供应量更大，生产成本更低。

We've saved billions of dollars and the quality of the stuff that we get to use goes up. So all right, that's like a win-win. But I think, in order for this to work, we do a lot of open source stuff. We do a lot of closed source stuff. I'm not like a zealot on this. I think open source is very valuable, but I also think it sort of makes sense for us because of our position in the market, and the same for AI. I mean around Llama.

我们节省了数十亿美元，并且我们使用的东西的质量也在提高。所以，好吧，这就像是双赢。但我认为，为了让这项工作奏效，我们做了很多开源的东西。我们也做了很多闭源的东西。我不是这方面的狂热者。我认为开源非常有价值，但我也认为这对我们来说是有意义的，因为我们在市场中的地位，AI 也是如此。我是说围绕 Llama。

David: Okay, this is where we were going with this.

大卫：好的，这就是我们的方向。

Mark: Yeah, it's a similar deal. We want to make sure that we have access to a leading AI model, right, I think, just like we want to build the hardware so that we can build the best social experiences for the next 20 years. I don't think that for us, it's like we've just been through too much stuff with the other platforms to fully depend on anyone else, and we're a big enough company at this point that we don't have to.

马克：是的，这是类似的情况。我们想确保能够访问一个领先的 AI 模型，对吧，我想，就像我们想要构建硬件，以便在未来 20 年内打造最佳的社交体验。我不认为对我们来说，这就像我们在其他平台上经历了太多事情，无法完全依赖其他任何人，而且我们现在已经是足够大的公司，不需要这样做。

不想依赖于其他人，但很愿意依赖开源软件，性格上的问题非常确定。

We can build our own core technology platforms, whether that's going to be AR glasses or mixed reality or AI, so I think that's somewhat of an imperative for us to go do that. But these things are not like pieces of software that are monolithic. They're ecosystems. They get better when other people use them. For us, there's a huge amount of good and it philosophically lines up with where we are. We're like mean look, I definitely, firsthand have a lot of experiences. We were like trying to build stuff on mobile platforms. The platforms are just like no, you can't build that okay, uh that's frustrating.

我们可以构建自己的核心技术平台，无论是 AR 眼镜、混合现实还是 AI，所以我认为这对我们来说是必须去做的事情。但这些东西不像是单一的软件。它们是生态系统。当其他人使用它们时，它们会变得更好。对我们来说，这有巨大的好处，并且在哲学上与我们的立场一致。我们就像是，确实，我亲身有很多经验。我们就像是在尝试在移动平台上构建东西。平台就像是，不，你不能构建那个，好吧，呃，那很令人沮丧。

David: Can we take a real quick detour?

大卫：我们能快速绕道一下吗？

Mark: What's that? We can, we can, take a detour.

马克：那是什么？我们可以，我们可以，绕道而行。

David: Okay, you took a detour. We're going to take a detour. Help us with our research here, the eve of the IPO...

大卫：好的，你绕道了。我们也要绕道。帮我们做一下研究，IPO 前夕……

Mark: Yeah, this is quite a detour.

马克：是的，这真是一个绕道。

Ben: Wait, Did you just stop?

本：等等，你刚才停下来了吗？

David: I'm really grabbing the wheel here.

大卫：我真的在抓住方向盘。

Ben: Is this connected, or did you just decide that it was your turn to talk?

本：这是相关的吗，还是你只是决定该轮到你说话了？

David: I'm sorry, I was really wound up.

大卫：对不起，我真的很紧张。

Ben: I know Open source and AI, we'll get back.

本：我了解开源和人工智能，我们会回来的。

David: I think it's related. I do, I really genuinely do Facebook on mobile is HTML5.

大卫：我认为这是相关的。我真的，真的认为移动版的 Facebook 是 HTML5。

Ben: In 2012. 本：在 2012 年。

David: Yeah, May 2012.

大卫：是的，2012 年 5 月。

Mark: Yeah. 马克：是的。

David: Yeah, I want to ask you what you were thinking going into the IPO with Facebook on mobile being HTML5, and what happened to IPO at $100 billion market cap over the next three months. You have a 50% drawdown, probably because of that, but I guess the related question to what we're talking about now is how much is that informing your approach here with AI?

大卫：是的，我想问你，在 Facebook 的 IPO 中，移动端使用 HTML5 时你是怎么想的，以及在接下来的三个月中，市值达到 1000 亿美元的 IPO 发生了什么。你有 50% 的回撤，可能就是因为这个，但我想我们现在谈论的相关问题是，这在多大程度上影响了你在 AI 方面的方法？

Mark: I think it was a pretty different technical issue. I mean, our legacy was building on web for websites and we were very used to building one thing and being able to continuously deploy it and it fits with our iteration style and all that. Now, all of a sudden, this app model comes along and it's like we have to build like different ones for each phone and like you have to go through approval to get it shipped and we have to wait like weeks before it can ship.

马克：我认为这是一个非常不同的技术问题。我的意思是，我们的传统是在网站上构建网页，我们非常习惯于构建一个东西并能够持续部署它，这符合我们的迭代风格等等。现在，突然之间，这种应用程序模型出现了，我们必须为每部手机构建不同的版本，而且你必须通过审批才能发布，我们必须等待几个星期才能发布。

It's like this sucks. We're like, all right, we have an idea, let's build this platform where we can get a web-based platform. You basically build a native shell and you build this web-based platform in it and we'll be able to just update our apps every day and we'll ship one thing once and we'll update our apps across android and iPhone and Blackberry and Windows mobile and all the stuff that existed at the time because it hadn't gotten consolidated yet and, um, we're that's going to be that's. We're like, basically, whatever downside we are going to have from not having the most native thing, we're going to make up for in velocity and by having way more of our energy focused on one platform.

就像这样糟透了。我们想，好吧，我们有个想法，让我们建立一个平台，我们可以获得一个基于网络的平台。你基本上构建一个本地外壳，并在其中构建这个基于网络的平台，我们将能够每天更新我们的应用程序，我们将一次性发布一个东西，并更新我们在安卓、iPhone、黑莓和 Windows 移动设备上的应用程序，以及当时存在的所有东西，因为它还没有被整合，嗯，我们就是这样。我们想，基本上，无论我们因为没有最本地化的东西而有什么缺点，我们都会通过速度来弥补，并通过将更多的精力集中在一个平台上来弥补。

Well, we were wrong. It turned out that you know, having the native integration was actually critical for having the interactions feel good and that so we basically went through this period where we had to go rewrite our apps from scratch. That coincided with mobile growing dramatically, and mobile we didn't have any revenue, because it may seem like it's pretty similar, but there's a very big difference. On desktop you basically have the app and you have a column on the side that we could put ads, and on mobile we needed to figure out what does it mean to put ads into the experience?

好吧，我们错了。事实证明，拥有本地集成实际上对于让互动感觉良好是至关重要的，因此我们基本上经历了一个必须从头重写应用程序的时期。这与移动设备的显著增长同时发生，而在移动设备上我们没有任何收入，因为看起来可能很相似，但实际上有很大的区别。在桌面上，您基本上有应用程序，并且在侧边有一个可以放广告的栏，而在移动设备上，我们需要弄清楚将广告放入体验中意味着什么。

Ben: Let's be clear the 'feed ad' had not been invented yet.

本：明确一点，“信息流广告”当时还没有被发明出来。

Mark: Yeah, that was the thing that the team did. Yeah, and advertisers have specific formats that they like working with, and the idea that we were just going to be like, all right, now your ad is going to look like a feed story was a big challenge for advertisers.

马克：是的，那是团队做的事情。是的，广告商有他们喜欢使用的特定格式，而我们只是想让他们的广告看起来像信息流故事的想法对广告商来说是一个很大的挑战。

And the idea that now for people, you were going to have this organic feed that was the most important part of the product and now we're just going to start putting ads in it was a challenge for the people using the product. We needed to figure that out and we need to get the apps to be better, and we basically took I think it must have been like a year or something where we were just like look, we're going to pause feature development of the company because it's hard enough to do a rewrite.

而且现在对于人们来说，这种有机信息流是产品中最重要的部分，而我们现在要开始在其中插入广告，这对使用产品的人来说是一个挑战。我们需要解决这个问题，我们需要让应用程序变得更好，我想我们基本上花了一年左右的时间，我们就像是看，我们要暂停公司的功能开发，因为重写已经够难的了。

If you look at the history of the tech industry, there are all these examples like Netscape and all these things that they tried to do a rewrite. They needed to reestablish their technical platform and they also tried to add features. They basically just never terminated. That's a real risk when you're completely changing your underlying platform, that you're going to miss it.

如果你查看科技行业的历史，有很多例子，比如 Netscape 和他们尝试重写的所有这些事情。他们需要重新建立他们的技术平台，并且还尝试添加功能。他们基本上从未完成。这是一个真正的风险，当你完全改变你的底层平台时，你可能会错过它。

It's like, all right, we've got to minimize the chance that that happens. We’re not going to ship any new features, we're just going to rewrite it, make it faster. But while we're doing this, basically mobile's growing, so the percent of our traffic that is monetizable is shrinking, because web is basically shrinking and mobile's growing

就像，好吧，我们必须尽量减少这种情况发生的可能性。我们不会发布任何新功能，我们只是要重写它，让它更快。但在我们这样做的时候，基本上移动端在增长，所以我们可盈利的流量百分比在缩小，因为网页端基本上在缩小，而移动端在增长。

David: And that's your only business model.

大卫：那就是你唯一的商业模式。

Mark: Yeah, and I was like all right, like okay,

马克：是的，我当时就想，好吧，行吧

Ben: And you're now recently quarterly reporting, you know.

本：而且你现在最近在进行季度报告，你知道的。

Mark: But the thing is, it was actually pretty clear what we needed to do. You know, I think strategically, a lot of the time it's somewhat harder to know what to do when you're winning. When stuff is going well, it's like what is the next move to go from winning to winning more. But when you're losing, it's usually pretty clear what you have to do and I think a lot of it is just do you have the pain tolerance to go do it?

马克：但问题是，我们实际上很清楚需要做什么。你知道，我认为从战略上讲，很多时候当你在赢的时候，知道该做什么会有点困难。当事情进展顺利时，就像是下一步该怎么做才能从胜利走向更大的胜利。但当你在输的时候，通常很清楚你必须做什么，我认为很多时候就是你是否有忍受痛苦去做的耐力。

A lot of this was like all right, the team was like okay, well, we're going public and investors really aren't going to like this if we are not making money for a year and a half. And it's like, well, a year and a half is short in the grand scheme of things. Let's do this and we did it, and it was a painful year and a half. And then we came out of that and we were in great shape.

这很多就像，好吧，团队就像，好吧，我们要上市了，如果我们一年半不赚钱，投资者真的不会喜欢。而且就像，从大局来看，一年半是很短的。我们就这样做了，我们做到了，那是一年半的痛苦时期。然后我们走出了那段时期，我们的状况非常好。

I think people inside the company had felt a lot better sooner, because it was pretty clear to people that we were doing the right thing and they knew that we were executing in a responsible way and basically focused and we're doing the right thing. But I think it's actually when you have something that's working well and you're on one local hill and you need to jump to another hill, that's the stuff that's really culturally hard.

我认为公司内部的人很快就感觉好多了，因为对他们来说很明显我们在做正确的事情，他们知道我们在以负责任的方式执行，基本上专注于我们正在做的正确事情。但我认为，当你有一些运作良好的东西时，你在一个本地的山丘上，而你需要跳到另一个山丘上，这才是真正文化上困难的事情。

But this one, I think, was it was not fun. There have been a series of periods throughout the company that were not, I don't know, not the most fun periods, although that one in retrospect looks pretty good. In retrospect. It's not that bad. Your market cap only got cut in half for a year and a half. I'm like great, great, yeah, I'll take that. Anyway, where were we?

但这个，我觉得，这并不好玩。在公司的整个过程中，有一系列时期，我不知道，不是最有趣的时期，尽管回想起来那个时期看起来还不错。回想起来。也没那么糟。你的市值只在一年半的时间里被砍掉了一半。我想，好吧，好吧，是的，我接受。无论如何，我们刚才说到哪了？

Ben: Maybe can I so, can I connect? So David asked hey, can you help with our research? Can I follow that thread that you just said? Hey, that one wasn't so bad. There's been a lot of amazing things the company has done. There's also been a lot of criticism. If you were to be self-critical, of your own company, of your own creation, of all the criticisms that have happened over the years, which do you believe is the most legitimate, and why?

本：也许我可以这样，我可以连接吗？所以大卫问嘿，你能帮我们研究吗？我可以跟随你刚才说的那个线索吗？嘿，那个还不算太糟。公司做了很多了不起的事情。也有很多批评。如果你要自我批评，对你自己的公司，对你自己的创作，所有这些年来发生的批评中，你认为哪个是最合理的，为什么？

Mark: I mean, there's so many things that we've messed up that there are many criticisms that are legitimate, but if that was a year and a half mistake, I think, you know, one of the things I reflect on over the last like 10 years or so was, you know, the political environment just changed dramatically, right? It's like before 2016, there was not a month that went by, except for maybe this IPO period, where the sentiment about the company was anything but positive.

马克：我的意思是，我们搞砸了很多事情，有很多批评是合理的，但如果那是一个一年半的错误，我想，你知道，我在过去大约 10 年里反思的事情之一是，政治环境发生了巨大的变化，对吧？就像在 2016 年之前，除了可能是 IPO 期间，没有一个月公司受到的评价不是积极的。

And then after 2016, after the election, basically there was not a month for a while where the sentiment about the company was positive. And I think so much of this stuff is correctly understanding your place in the world and in history, and I think we talked about before how it's like. I think we understood that we are a technology company and that you have to be a technology company to build this kind of thing. I think we understood that we're not a social network company, we're a human connection company and that will take different forms over time.

然后在 2016 年之后，在选举之后，基本上有一段时间没有一个月公司情绪是积极的。我认为这些事情很大程度上是正确理解你在世界和历史中的位置，我想我们之前谈过这件事。我认为我们理解我们是一家科技公司，并且你必须是一家科技公司才能建立这样的东西。我认为我们理解我们不是一家社交网络公司，我们是一家人际连接公司，这将在不同的时间采取不同的形式。

The political environment I think I didn't have much sophistication around and I think I just fundamentally misdiagnosed the problem. That there was this basic challenge and there were a lot of things I don't want to simplify this too much. I mean, there were a lot of things that we did wrong. There were some things that we did right, but I think one of the things that I look back on regret is, we accepted other people's view of some of the things that they were asserting that we were doing wrong or were responsible for.

我认为我对政治环境没有太多的深刻理解，我认为我根本上误诊了问题。存在这个基本的挑战，有很多事情，我不想过于简化。我是说，我们做错了很多事情。有些事情我们做对了，但我认为回顾过去让我感到遗憾的一件事是，我们接受了其他人对我们做错或负责的一些事情的看法。

I don't actually think we were, and there were a lot of things we did mess up and we needed to fix up and we needed to fix. But that there's this view where, when you're a company and someone says that there's an issue, I think the right instinct is to take ownership for it, say okay, maybe it's not all our thing, but we're going to fully own this problem, we're going to take responsibility for it, we're going to fix it.

实际上我不认为我们是这样的，我们确实搞砸了很多事情，需要修复和解决。但有一种观点是，当你是一家公司时，有人说存在问题，我认为正确的本能是承担责任，说好吧，也许这不全是我们的事情，但我们会完全承担这个问题的责任，我们会负责解决它。

But when it's a political problem, I actually think, a lot of the time sometimes there are people who are operating in good faith, who are identifying a problem that wants something to be fixed, and there are people who are just looking for someone to blame. And I think, to some degree, if you take responsibility for things because you think it's a corporate crisis, not a political crisis, and your view is like, okay, I'm going to take responsibility for all this stuff. People are basically blaming social media and the tech industry for all these different things in society.

但当这是一个政治问题时，我实际上认为，很多时候有些人是出于善意在行动，他们识别出一个需要解决的问题，而有些人只是想找个人来责备。而我认为，在某种程度上，如果你因为认为这是一个企业危机而不是政治危机而承担责任，并且你的观点是，好吧，我要为所有这些事情负责。人们基本上是在责怪社交媒体和科技行业对社会中所有这些不同的事情负责。

If we're saying, okay, we're going to really do our part to go fix this stuff, I know there were a bunch of people who just took that and were like, oh, you're taking responsibility for that, let me kick you for more stuff. And honestly, we should have been firmer and clearer about which of the things we actually felt like we had a part in and which ones we didn't.

如果我们说，好吧，我们真的要尽自己的一份力去解决这些问题，我知道有一群人只是接受了这一点，然后就像，哦，你要为此负责，让我再给你更多的东西。老实说，我们本应该更坚定和明确地说明哪些事情我们确实觉得自己有责任，哪些事情我们没有。

And my guess is, if the IPO was a year and a half mistake, I think that the political miscalculation was a 20-year mistake and it started in 2016. And that we have been working super hard to fix a lot of issues and to figure out, kind of what the right tone is for navigating what is a very kind of fraught political dynamic across both the country and multiplied across all these places around the world.

而我猜测，如果 IPO 是一个一年半的错误，我认为政治误判是一个 20 年的错误，并且始于 2016 年。我们一直在非常努力地解决许多问题，并找出在全国范围内以及全球各地复杂的政治动态中导航的正确基调。

I think we've sort of found our footing on what the principles are, where we think we need to improve stuff, but where people make allegations about the impact of the tech industry or our company which are just not founded in any fact that I think we should push back on harder. I think it's going to take another 10 years or so for us to fully work through that cycle before our brand and all of that is back to the place that it maybe could have been if I hadn't messed that up in the first place.

我认为我们已经在某种程度上找到了立足点，了解了原则是什么，知道了我们需要改进的地方，但对于那些关于科技行业或我们公司影响的指控，如果没有任何事实依据，我认为我们应该更强硬地反驳。我认为我们还需要大约 10 年时间才能完全走完这个周期，让我们的品牌和所有这些回到它本来可能达到的状态，如果我一开始没有搞砸的话。

But look, in the grand scheme of things, 20 years isn't that bad either and we'll get through it and we'll come out stronger. But I do think that is one of the kind of more interesting critiques that I think people get, and we get critiques on both sides on that. There are people who don't think we've taken enough responsibility, but certainly there's one line of critique, which is, you know, you kind of bought into too much of the stuff that you shouldn't have and, yeah, it's going to take us a long time to dig out of that.

但看，在大局上，20 年也不算太糟，我们会度过难关，并变得更强大。但我确实认为这是人们得到的一种更有趣的批评，我们在这方面也受到双方的批评。有些人认为我们没有承担足够的责任，但确实有一种批评是，你知道，你有点过多地接受了不该接受的东西，是的，我们需要很长时间才能摆脱这种情况。

Ben: Do you have a reasonable framework at this point for like okay, here's the stuff where I feel like we actually do want to take responsibility for it and here's the stuff where like, no, that's not our fault.

本：在这一点上，你是否有一个合理的框架来区分哪些事情是我们确实想要承担责任的，哪些事情不是我们的错。

Mark: Yeah, I mean, at this point, I think a lot of this stuff has been studied. I mean, I think a lot of this stuff has been studied. I don't want to go rehash all the different things, but I think at this point, there's been years of academic research on a lot of these things. Part of the thing that's challenging, and one of the things that we've learned, is we actually should be trying to support more academics and doing more of this research ahead of time.

马克：是的，我的意思是，到目前为止，我认为很多这些东西已经被研究过了。我的意思是，我认为很多这些东西已经被研究过了。我不想重新讨论所有不同的事情，但我认为在这一点上，关于很多这些事情已经有多年的学术研究。挑战的一部分，以及我们学到的一件事是，我们实际上应该尝试支持更多的学者，并提前进行更多的这类研究。

Because when you get to a point where you're being accused of something, you're not super credible, just standing up yourself and being like I don't think we did this one. You know it's like so, but what has worked over time is you know you do the research in advance and you get kind of third party academics, respected folks, who get to debate all these different issues, and then it's like oh no, actually like the evidence just does not show that social media is correlated with this kind of harm at all. So I think that it kind of cuts both ways.

因为当你被指控某事时，仅仅靠自己站出来说我认为我们没有做这件事，你的可信度并不高。你知道的，这就像是这样，但随着时间的推移，行之有效的方法是你提前进行研究，并找来第三方学者、受人尊敬的人士来讨论所有这些不同的问题，然后就会发现，哦不，实际上证据并不显示社交媒体与这种伤害有任何关联。所以我认为这有利有弊。

吸引眼球的生意都有这个问题，有些人能本能的避开，比如，乔布斯和巴菲特，有些人至死不知道发生了什么，总认为别人的批评是错的，责任不在自己。

David: To me, this brings up another topic we wanted to talk about with you and you, just you know, 20 years isn't that long.

大卫：对我来说，这引出了另一个我们想和你谈论的话题，你知道，20 年并不算长。

Mark: I'm young. 马克：我年轻。

David: You're young, we all are.

大卫：你还年轻，我们都是。

Ben: This is the advantage of being a college dropout founder with one company.

本：这是作为一个辍学创办公司的创始人的优势。

Mark: Yeah, it is. When you start, when you're 19, it's like, hopefully we have more than 20 years left to do this

马克：是的，当你开始的时候，当你 19 岁的时候，就像，希望我们还有超过 20 年的时间来做这件事。

Ben: And hopefully you have like 'Buffett' duration.

本：希望你有像“巴菲特”那样的持久力。

Mark: Yeah, I don't know, Maybe, hopefully.

马克：是啊，我不知道，也许，希望如此。

David: You set up the company in a, especially at the time, truly unique way where you can operate the company and take that approach.

大卫：你以一种特别是在当时真正独特的方式创办了公司，使你能够经营公司并采取这种方法。

Ben: Do you mean super voting shares?

本：你是指超级投票权股份吗？

David: Super voting shares is like the technical aspect. I think there are a bunch of technical aspects to it that we're not going to get into in this conversation, but effectively you can take that perspective in a way that if you are a CEO, non-founder, without a structure that you've set up, you just can't.

大卫：超级投票权就像技术层面。我认为其中有很多技术层面我们在这次谈话中不会深入探讨，但实际上你可以从这个角度来看，如果你是一个非创始人的 CEO，没有你设立的结构，你就做不到。

And I think you know in doing all the research for this, a thesis we've developed is that, like that, is just one of the core fundamental advantages that Meta has. So as you were setting up the company, you know when you were so young, even when you went public, you were so young, why was that so important to you?

我认为，在为此进行所有研究时，我们发展出的一个论点是，这样做是 Meta 拥有的核心基本优势之一。那么，当你在创办公司时，你知道你还很年轻，甚至在公司上市时，你也很年轻，为什么这对你如此重要？

Mark: In 2006, Yahoo wanted to buy the company for a billion dollars and everyone on our management team wanted to sell it and the board tried to fire me and basically in the next year, everyone else on the management team left because I hadn't done a good job communicating. I don't want to blame them. I hadn't done a good job communicating the long-term vision because I didn't, I wasn't thinking about that at the time.

马克：在 2006 年，雅虎想以十亿美元收购公司，我们管理团队的每个人都想卖掉它，董事会试图解雇我，基本上在接下来的一年里，管理团队的其他人都离开了，因为我没有做好沟通工作。我不想责怪他们。我没有做好沟通长期愿景的工作，因为当时我没有考虑到这一点。

I, like, wasn't thinking in terms of this as a company. I was like this is a great project, it's awesome, like a lot of people, like what we're doing. I think this will probably continue for a while. I think it's going to be pretty important in the world. But I didn't know how to think in terms of long-term financial plans

我当时没有把这当作一家公司来考虑。我觉得这是一个很棒的项目，太棒了，很多人喜欢我们正在做的事情。我认为这可能会持续一段时间。我认为这在世界上会相当重要。但我不知道如何从长期财务计划的角度来思考。

Ben: Or make the case to them why it would be worth more than a billion.

本：或者向他们说明为什么它的价值会超过十亿。

Mark: Yeah, or just look, we're doing this for the long term. We're not planning on selling the company. So it's like, without having made that case, it was understandable that basically, Yahoo comes around, a lot of people. It's like this is like all their startup dreams come true. You've got to take this offer, because I just wasn't in a place where I had the sophistication to basically articulate a lot of the stuff around where we were going longer term.

马克：是的，或者只是看看，我们这是在为长期做准备。我们不打算出售公司。所以就像是，在没有说明这一点的情况下，基本上可以理解的是，雅虎来了，很多人都觉得这就像是他们所有的创业梦想成真。你必须接受这个提议，因为我当时没有足够的成熟度来清楚地表达我们长期发展的方向。

It probably wasn't super confidence-inspiring to them when I was like, "hey, I think we should turn this down because we're going to do this”. After that I was like, all right, well, I don't want to get fired from my own company for wanting to build it, so let's uh, try to set up a governance structure that makes it somewhat harder to do that. Um, so wow - "learning through suffering!"

当我说“嘿，我觉得我们应该拒绝这个，因为我们要做这个”时，这可能并没有给他们带来很大的信心。之后我想，好吧，我不想因为想要建设公司而被解雇，所以让我们试着建立一个治理结构，使得这样做变得有些困难。嗯，所以哇——“通过痛苦学习！”

Ben: Wow, and being very cash-generative very early, such that you had a very real-going concern on your hands and you just didn't need to cut off your arm and sell it to someone in order to build your business.

本：哇，而且在很早的时候就能产生大量现金，这样你就有一个非常真实的持续经营问题，而不需要砍掉自己的手臂卖给别人来建立你的业务。

Mark: Yeah, 马克：是的，

Ben: I think this is a fundamentally misunderstood thing about 'Facebook the startup' - it is the prototypical startup.

本：我认为这是对“初创公司 Facebook”的根本误解——它是典型的初创公司。

David: You are the iconic startup founder

大卫：你是标志性的创业公司创始人

Ben: Of this century, there's a lot of people that want to start a startup for a lot of the glamorous reasons of starting a startup. You hated being a startup and wanted to stop being a startup as fast as possible and be a like going concern

本：在这个世纪，有很多人因为创业的光鲜理由想要创办一家初创公司。你讨厌做初创公司，并希望尽快停止做初创公司，成为一个持续经营的企业。

Mark: Yeah, I mean I think we're having a lot more fun now. I get to work on all the stuff? It's awesome!

马克：是的，我的意思是我觉得我们现在玩得更开心。我可以处理所有的事情？太棒了！

Ben: But what is your advice to all these founders who sort of romanticize the idea of starting a company and kind of.

本：但你对所有这些有点浪漫化创业想法的创始人有什么建议呢？

Mark: I don't know, obviously starting a company is not bad, right? I mean, I think that there's different schools of thought on how to do it. I think some people think, okay, I want to go start a company, so I'm going to like go dive into this idea, and I just think that that's a little bit dangerous.

马克：我不知道，显然创办公司并不坏，对吧？我的意思是，我认为关于如何做这件事有不同的看法。我认为有些人会想，好吧，我想去创办一家公司，所以我要深入这个想法，而我只是觉得这有点危险。

Because there's this issue which is you have to be able to be nimble and pivot around until you can figure out what works right. I mean, part of the reason why I didn't think Facebook was going to be the company early on was because when I was in school, I built 12 different things that were just things that I wanted to exist. I was like, all right, this is fun. Okay, let's build another thing. It's like, okay, this one's fun, people are still using that. I'll help upkeep this one.

因为有个问题是你必须能够灵活应对，直到你能找出什么是有效的。我是说，我一开始不认为 Facebook 会成为那家公司，部分原因是因为我在学校时，构建了 12 个不同的东西，这些只是我想要存在的东西。我当时想，好吧，这很有趣。好吧，让我们再建一个东西。就像，好吧，这个很有趣，人们还在使用那个。我会帮助维护这个。

But I had a bunch of other ideas for stuff I was going to build too, I didn't know how to think about what a company was going to be. I think there's something about maintaining flexibility that's helpful. Once you hire a bunch of people, it's a lot easier when you can just have meetings in your own head about what direction you want to go in, and there's a lot less pride and people dug in when you're just like, okay, I'm going to change direction.

但我还有一堆其他想法要去实现，我不知道该如何思考公司将会是什么。我认为保持灵活性是有帮助的。一旦你雇佣了一大批人，当你可以在自己脑海中开会讨论想要走的方向时，会容易得多，而且当你决定改变方向时，骄傲和固执的人会少得多。

People haven't invested their ego in like no, we were going in this direction and now I must be convinced it's like nah. I do think that that's a thing where you want to keep things lean and be able to do that, and that's one of the reasons why we tried to get the company back to being whatever.

人们没有把自我投入到像“不，我们要朝这个方向走，现在我必须被说服”这样的事情中。我确实认为这是一个你想保持精简并能够做到的事情，这也是我们试图让公司回到某种状态的原因之一。

The leanest version of a large company is that we can be. But I do think that there's something to that where it's like it's obviously it's not super fun not having the resources to do what you want to do. But I think it also is problematic to have more people working on something than you should have for the stage that it's at, because then the people who are working on it don't have the agency to actually make the changes and do the things that they need to, which is less fun, and then you can't attract the best people to go work on those things because it's less fun, and so I do think you just have to dial it right.

一个大公司的最精简版本就是我们能做到的样子。但我确实认为，这其中有一些道理，显然没有足够的资源去做你想做的事情并不是特别有趣。但我也认为，在某个阶段有比应有的更多的人在做某件事情是有问题的，因为这样一来，正在做这件事情的人就没有自主权去真正做出改变和完成他们需要做的事情，这样就更不有趣，然后你也无法吸引最优秀的人去做这些事情，因为这不够有趣，所以我确实认为你必须把握好这个度。

Ben: You're spending a gajillion dollars on Reality Labs.

本：你在 Reality Labs 上花费了无数的钱。

Mark: It's a technical term...

马克：这是一个技术术语...

Ben: It's not making that much money. I'm gonna play Mark back to you, sure of it's not appropriate to have all these people and resources working on things for more than the stage warrants. I'm being a little facetious here, but I'm curious how you, why you categorize it differently?

本：它没有赚那么多钱。我会把马克的话放给你听，确定让所有这些人和资源投入到超出阶段需要的事情上是不合适的。我在这里有点开玩笑，但我很好奇你是如何、为什么将其分类不同的？

Mark: I mean, well, I think some of the stuff, by the time you're at the scale that we're at, is also just about like, what do you want to do over the next 10 to 20 years and what do you think are going to be important? And you know we were talking about making your own luck and all that and how you know it's like I think there are some broad strokes that we can have a sense of where things are going.

马克：我的意思是，我认为当你达到我们这样的规模时，有些事情也是关于你在未来 10 到 20 年想做什么，以及你认为什么会变得重要。你知道我们在谈论创造自己的运气以及所有这些，我觉得我们可以大致了解事情的发展方向。

I'm pretty sure glasses and holographic presence and AR is going to be a completely ubiquitous product, right, it's just like everyone who had a phone before replaced it with a smartphone and then a lot of more people got smartphones. If all we get is all the people in the world who already have glasses upgrading to glasses that have AI in them, then this is already going to be one of the most successful products in the history of the world, and I think it's going to go a lot further than that. So I know there's that.

我很确定眼镜、全息存在和增强现实将成为一种完全普及的产品，对吧，就像每个人以前有手机，然后换成智能手机，然后更多的人拥有智能手机一样。如果我们得到的只是世界上所有已经戴眼镜的人升级到带有人工智能的眼镜，那么这已经将成为世界历史上最成功的产品之一，而且我认为它会走得更远。所以我知道有这一点。

There is the thing about controlling our own destiny. It's strategically valuable. You know we did this calculation or estimate at some point where it's like how much money do we lose from our core family of apps to the various taxes that the platforms have to like, when they tell us we can't run the ad business the way that we think we should be able to.

关于掌控我们自己命运的事情，这是具有战略价值的。你知道，我们曾在某个时候进行过这样的计算或估算，就是我们核心应用家族因平台的各种税收而损失了多少钱，当他们告诉我们不能按照我们认为应该的方式运营广告业务时。

When they tell us we can't ship certain products, that way people use the things less or like them less, and it's hard to exactly estimate it. But I think we might be twice as profitable if we own the platform or something. I think from that perspective that's worth a lot, just from a pure dollars perspective, which is not primarily how I come at this stuff. But even now I've learned a thing actually since the Yahoo days. So now I at least am able to.

当他们告诉我们不能运输某些产品时，人们就会减少使用这些东西或不太喜欢它们，而这很难准确估计。但我认为如果我们拥有平台或其他东西，我们的利润可能会翻倍。我认为从这个角度来看，这非常有价值，仅从纯粹的金钱角度来看，这并不是我处理这些事情的主要方式。但即便如此，自雅虎时代以来，我确实学到了一些东西。所以现在我至少能够做到。

I might not be able to convince all the investors that we should be investing to the extent that we are in Reality Labs if I didn't control the company, but at least I can sort of articulate a case for why I am confident that it's going to be good over time.

如果我不控制公司，我可能无法说服所有投资者我们应该在 Reality Labs 上进行如此大规模的投资，但至少我可以在某种程度上阐述我为什么有信心它随着时间的推移会变得很好。

But for me it's always been way more about the product experience and what you can enable and build. And you know, one of the shifts and this is sort of like a values shift over time is, you know, one of the things that some of the early Oculus guys used to say to me that 'there's a difference between building good things and awesome things'. And good is good, right, it's helpful. It's useful.

但对我来说，这一直更多是关于产品体验以及你能实现和构建的东西。你知道，随着时间的推移，这有点像价值观的转变，其中一些早期的 Oculus 团队成员曾对我说过，“构建好东西和构建极好的东西之间是有区别的”。好东西就是好东西，对吧，它是有帮助的，是有用的。

It's things that people use on a day-to-day basis because it adds something to their lives. But 'awesome' is different. Awesome is uplifting and inspiring and just leads you to just be way more optimistic about the future, and it's just like this uplifting thing about humanity. And so I think a lot of what we've done with social media so far is very good. We've built these products. More than 3 billion people use them on a near daily basis.

这是人们日常使用的东西，因为它为他们的生活增添了一些东西。但“令人敬畏”是不同的。令人敬畏的是振奋人心和鼓舞人心的，它让你对未来更加乐观，这就像是关于人类的振奋人心的事情。因此，我认为我们迄今为止在社交媒体上所做的很多事情都非常好。我们构建了这些产品，超过 30 亿人几乎每天都在使用它们。

Ben: It's like 3.3 billion on a daily basis.

本：这就像每天 33 亿。

Mark: Yeah, and they use it because it is useful in their life and in all these different ways. I mean obviously people vary, people use it for different things, but it is useful in their life, right, and in all these different ways. I mean obviously people vary, people use it for different things, but it's useful and it helps people.

马克：是的，他们使用它是因为它在他们的生活中以及各种不同的方式中很有用。我的意思是显然人们各不相同，人们用它做不同的事情，但它在他们的生活中很有用，对吧，并且在所有这些不同的方式中。我是说显然人们各不相同，人们用它做不同的事情，但它很有用，并且帮助了人们。

And it helps people stay connected, helps people build businesses, it helps people form communities. It's good there aren't that many people on a day-to-day basis who get out of bed and are like, fuck yeah, social media, like it's like that's right, right I mean that's not like.

它帮助人们保持联系，帮助人们建立业务，帮助人们形成社区。好在没有那么多人每天醒来就想，太好了，社交媒体，就像是对的，对吧，我的意思是这并不是那样的。

So I kind of think for the next, for my next stage, right for the next stage of the company, the next like 15 years, I want us to build more things that are awesome in addition to things that are good, and I think that they both matter. But to me, this is like a little bit of a kind of the next stage of what I want our company to stand for and be, and so I think a lot of the Reality Lab stuff that we're doing is going to be in that bucket.

所以我有点认为，对于接下来的阶段，对于公司的下一个阶段，大约未来 15 年，我希望我们在构建优秀事物的同时，能创造更多令人惊叹的东西，我认为这两者都很重要。但对我来说，这有点像是我希望我们公司代表和成为的下一个阶段，因此我认为我们正在进行的许多现实实验室的工作将属于这一类。

A lot of the AI stuff that we're doing, I think, is going to be in that bucket. There are a bunch of things in the apps that are going to be in that bucket too, new apps too, but I don't know. I think that there's just something that's fundamentally pretty good about that, and maybe it's also just where I am in my life. I like to think I'm young, I'm a little older, but I do think that at this point it's.

我们正在做的很多人工智能的东西，我认为会在那个范畴内。应用程序中也有很多东西会在那个范畴内，还有新的应用程序，但我不知道。我认为这基本上是相当不错的，也许这也只是我人生中的一个阶段。我喜欢认为自己年轻，我有点年长，但我确实认为在这一点上是。

But it's like I. I do think that at this point, you know, it's not just a Meta thing. Also, you know, in my personal life, a lot of what I personally value is doing things that are inspiring with people who I find inspiring. All right, and you know. So there's the personal version of this. It's like I get to work on, you know, interesting science problems with Priscilla and my wife and a bunch of awesome people. I get to design shirts with some of the best fashion designers in the world. It's like I am..

但这就像我。我确实认为在这一点上，你知道，这不仅仅是一个 Meta 的事情。而且，你知道，在我的个人生活中，我个人重视的是与我认为有启发性的人一起做有启发性的事情。好的，你知道。所以这是个人版本的事情。就像我可以和 Priscilla、我的妻子以及一群很棒的人一起研究有趣的科学问题。我可以和世界上一些最好的时装设计师一起设计衬衫。这就像我是...

Ben: Statues. 本：雕像。

Mark: Sculpture of my wife. Bring back the Roman tradition of designing sculptures of people you love.

马克：我妻子的雕塑。带回为所爱之人设计雕塑的罗马传统。

Ben: I'm not at all being facetious. It's really cool.

本：我一点也不是在开玩笑。这真的很酷。

Mark: I think Daniel Arsham is a really talented guy. I was like that's a person who I'd love to work with on something. Let's go find a project. One of my side projects is we have this cattle ranch in Kauai and I'm trying to see if we can raise the highest quality beef in the world. And there's like all this stuff it starts with like it's awesome, we got this steer - chonk. He's like he's just the man. He's the man.

马克：我觉得丹尼尔·阿尔沙姆真是个有才华的人。我当时想，那是一个我很想与之合作的人。让我们去找个项目吧。我的一个副业是我们在考艾岛有个牧场，我想看看我们能否养出世界上最高品质的牛肉。然后有很多事情开始就像，太棒了，我们有这头牛——chonk。他就像，他就是那个男人。他就是那个男人。

We're having a hard time keeping him on the ranch because every time we put him in a steel enclosure and he sees a female cow, he busts through the steel enclosure. But I feel like that's the kind of bull that you want to make the highest quality beef in the world. We're just working with you know, trying to do really high-quality, awesome things with awesome people. If that's what I get to do for the next 15 or 20 years, then it's going to be a good 15 or 20 years.

我们很难把他留在牧场上，因为每次我们把他放进钢制围栏里，他看到母牛就会冲破围栏。但我觉得这正是你想要用来生产世界上最高质量牛肉的公牛。我们只是和你们一起努力，尝试与优秀的人一起做非常高质量、非常棒的事情。如果这是我接下来 15 或 20 年要做的事情，那将是一个美好的 15 或 20 年。

Ben: Was there a moment like what changed? When did this become your priority and why? It feels so radical that how could it have possibly been gradual? Or was this just like Mark all the time and we just couldn't see the real Mark?

本：有没有一个时刻发生了变化？什么时候这成为了你的优先事项，为什么？这感觉如此激进，怎么可能是逐渐的？还是说这一直就是马克，只是我们看不到真正的马克？

Mark: I don't know. I think that there might've been something around the way the company shifted in operations around COVID. I mean, it's like the COVID, all these tech companies went remote temporarily and it was an interesting period to just get some more time, like a step back. I'm a pretty introverted person and I do think it's ...I need to be careful where, I get a lot of value and energy and ideas from being around other people, but I also need time with myself.

马克：我不知道。我觉得可能是公司在 COVID 期间运营方式的转变。我是说，就像 COVID，所有这些科技公司暂时转为远程办公，那是一个有趣的时期，可以多一些时间，就像退一步。我是一个相当内向的人，我确实认为……我需要小心，我从与他人在一起中获得很多价值、能量和想法，但我也需要一些独处的时间。

With COVID, I kind of got that and it was a time of reflection, where I was able to think about this stuff and we were also going through this very difficult political time in the country and our company was at the center of a lot of those things. So that was a cause of a bunch of reflection. And then I think that a bunch of the things that we'd spun up earlier, but at smaller scale so the Reality Lab stuff that we started in 2014, really the FAIR stuff around, you know, 'Fundamental AI Research'

由于 COVID，我有点感受到了这一点，那是一个反思的时刻，我能够思考这些事情，我们国家也正经历着非常困难的政治时期，而我们的公司正处于许多这些事情的中心。所以这引发了很多反思。然后我认为我们之前启动的一些事情，但规模较小，比如我们在 2014 年开始的 Reality Lab 的事情，实际上是围绕“基础 AI 研究”的 FAIR 事情。

Ben: yeah 2012, 13?

本：是的，2012，13？

Mark: 2012, 13, sometime around then. These things they kind of got started and they were growing and it kind of reached this moment which is like are we going to double down on this and do this? Or are we going to kind of do this as a hobby? And I was like no, I think we should do this. I mean, this is going to be a really important part of what we do and we had to make a really important set of decisions.

马克：2012 年，13 年，大概在那时候。这些事情开始了，并且在增长，到了一个时刻，我们要加倍努力去做这件事吗？还是我们要把它当作一种爱好来做？我当时想，不，我认为我们应该做这件事。我是说，这将成为我们工作中非常重要的一部分，我们必须做出一系列非常重要的决定。

What we knew was going to be really painful, you know, to go double down on those things and build out the AI infrastructure that we needed to and scale up some of the Reality Lab stuff and I knew that a lot of the investors would hate it, at least in the short term before it's clearly the right thing to do. What I didn't know was that at the time, I thought they were going to not like it, but I thought it was going to be okay because I didn't think there was also going to be a recession at the same time.

我们知道这将会非常痛苦，你知道的，要加倍努力去做那些事情，建立我们所需的 AI 基础设施，并扩大一些 Reality Lab 的项目规模，我知道很多投资者会讨厌它，至少在短期内，在它显然是正确的事情之前。我不知道的是，当时我以为他们会不喜欢，但我以为会没事，因为我没想到同时还会有经济衰退。

That really, it's like I mean, look, you learn who you are through challenges. It's like okay, losing half of your market cap is 'quaint' compared to losing 80% of your market cap or whatever it was. I mean these are all intentional decisions. It's like there are a lot of conversations that we had which are like, should we go forward with this?

这真的，就像我的意思是，看，你通过挑战了解自己。这就像，好吧，失去一半的市值与失去 80%的市值或其他什么相比是“小事”。我的意思是这些都是有意的决定。就像我们进行了很多对话，比如，我们应该继续这样做吗？

The answer that I came out with is yes. This is what I believe in. I think this is going to be important for the world. I think it's going to work over time. We're no stranger to going through painful periods. In some ways, it makes the company better. Let's do it!

我得出的答案是肯定的。这是我所相信的。我认为这对世界将是重要的。我认为这随着时间的推移会奏效。我们对经历痛苦时期并不陌生。在某些方面，这使公司变得更好。让我们开始吧！

Ben: We're starting to enter, looking at the clock, like 'conclusion lightning round' territory. I've had one lurking in the back of my head. It makes sense to me that you would rebrand the company, something that is not Facebook, given how broad the family of apps was that you've got. Let's imagine you were going to rebrand it today. You've got AI going on, you've got AR going on, you've got VR going on. Would you pick the name Meta if you were going to rename the company today?

本：我们开始进入，看着时钟，像是“结论闪电回合”的领域。我一直在脑海中盘旋一个问题。鉴于你们拥有如此广泛的应用家族，对我来说，将公司重新命名为不是 Facebook 的名字是有道理的。假设你今天要重新命名公司。你有 AI，有 AR，有 VR。如果今天要重新命名公司，你会选择 Meta 这个名字吗？

Mark: I like Meta. It's a good name, you know, finding good short names...this actually was a thing that we talked about for a while because it was pretty clear that Facebook is continuing to grow in importance in the world, which I think a lot of people don't appreciate and it's kind of mind-boggling at the scale that it's at.

马克：我喜欢 Meta。这是个好名字，你知道，找到好的短名字……这实际上是我们讨论了一段时间的事情，因为很明显，Facebook 在世界上的重要性继续增长，我认为很多人没有意识到这一点，它的规模有点令人难以置信。

But the others, we went through a period where we had Facebook and a handful of small apps and now we have four apps that have a billion people or more using them. You know, hopefully in the next few years, five with Threads, if that continues scaling. And this was a conversation that we had a bunch - where it's like does it make sense for the name of the company to be one of the apps as the other apps, as it's really becoming a family of apps.

但其他的，我们经历了一段时期，期间我们有 Facebook 和一些小型应用程序，现在我们有四个应用程序，每个都有十亿或更多用户。你知道，希望在接下来的几年里，如果 Threads 继续扩展的话，会有五个。这是我们进行过多次的对话——就像公司名称是否应该是其中一个应用程序的名称，因为它实际上正在成为一个应用程序家族。

And it was important to me this was also coinciding with a lot of the challenges that we were having, the political brand challenges, different things and a lot of people were proposing that from the perspective of running away from the Facebook brand. Right, they were like oh well, like does the Facebook brand have issues? Do we need a new brand? And I was like we don't run away from that, right, it's like it might make sense one day to not have Facebook be the lead brand for the company, because we do so many different things.

这对我来说很重要，因为这也与我们面临的许多挑战相吻合，政治品牌挑战、不同的事情，很多人从逃避 Facebook 品牌的角度提出建议。对，他们就像，哦，好吧，Facebook 品牌有问题吗？我们需要一个新品牌吗？而我则认为我们不应该逃避这个问题，对吧，可能有一天不让 Facebook 成为公司的主导品牌是有意义的，因为我们做了很多不同的事情。

But I'm only going to do this when we come up with a brand that is going to be evocative of the future that we're trying to build, because we run towards something, we don't run away from things. And when we got to Meta, then I was like all right, we're here. And it was around the time when we were doubling down on the investment and where there was all the controversy and it's like look, if we're doing this, we're going to lean into this and we're going to do it. So let's do it.

但我只有在我们想出一个能够唤起我们试图构建的未来的品牌时才会这样做，因为我们是朝着某个目标前进，而不是逃避。当我们到达 Meta 时，我就觉得，好吧，我们到了。那时正是我们加倍投资的时候，也是争议四起的时候，就像这样看，如果我们要这样做，我们就要全力以赴去做。所以，让我们去做吧。

Ben: And if I were to make the case to you, I feel the core competency of Meta is you are able to discover products in the world. You have great ideas, you work on them. You discover interesting products and you, Mark, are not someone who wants to define yourself by anything. You want to have your hands on a bunch of great controls and maximize your degrees of freedom, see where the world's going and then have the best freaking spaceship possible to go maneuver your way over there.

本：如果我要向你陈述，我觉得 Meta 的核心竞争力在于你能够在世界上发现产品。你有很棒的想法，并为之努力。你发现了有趣的产品，而你，马克，并不是一个想要用任何东西来定义自己的人。你想要掌控一堆很棒的控制权，最大化你的自由度，看看世界的发展方向，然后拥有最好的飞船去操控你的路径到达那里。

It seems like I would pick a brand that almost doesn't pigeonhole me into a specific future. I might be looking for something that's more like look, I want to maximize my maneuverability.

看起来我会选择一个几乎不会将我限制在特定未来的品牌。我可能在寻找一些更像是“看，我想最大化我的机动性”的东西。

Mark: Yeah, I get it, but I don't know. We aligned around a vision and a mission of what we're trying to do and we run towards it. That's always been how we've operated.

马克：是的，我明白，但我不知道。我们围绕着我们想要实现的愿景和使命达成了一致，并朝着这个目标前进。这一直是我们的运作方式。

Ben: Yeah, and in many ways doing what I just suggested would kind of be running. It's like, well, we don't believe in it that much, and you're like, no, we don't believe in it.

本：是的，在很多方面，做我刚才建议的事情有点像是在逃避。就像是，我们并不那么相信它，而你会说，不，我们不相信它。

Mark: Yeah, no, I mean, we're a company that puts a flag down around what we're doing and we're going to go do it. It's like put a wall in front of us, there’s going to be a mark-shaped hole.

马克：是的，我的意思是，我们是一家明确目标的公司，我们会去实现它。这就像在我们面前竖起一堵墙，墙上会有一个马克形状的洞。

David: Speaking of lightning rounds and mark-shaped holes, you are accelerating what used to be your annual challenges. I mean when we were all kids and we didn't know each other, I was so inspired you would do your annual challenges, you would post about them and I was like, wow, that's pretty damn cool.

大卫：说到闪电战和标记形状的空缺，你正在加速以前的年度挑战。我是说，当我们还是孩子的时候，我们彼此不认识，我被你做的年度挑战所激励，你会发布关于它们的信息，我当时想，哇，这真是太酷了。

And then we all get a little older and we all have kids on the stage now and we all have companies on the stage now and there's some large, some small, the demands on your time like it. For me especially, I think lots of people that's like that space gets sucked and you have expanded it. How?

然后我们都变得稍微年长一些，我们现在都有孩子在舞台上，我们现在都有公司在舞台上，有些公司大，有些公司小，对你时间的需求就像这样。对我来说尤其如此，我认为很多人都是这样，那个空间被吸走了，而你却扩展了它。怎么做到的？

Mark: What do you mean?

马克：你是什么意思？

David: Well, you used to do annual challenges and I feel like you're now doing weekly challenges. You're designing t-shirts. You're making sculptures, you're raising cattle... I feel like you have a weekly challenge.

大卫：嗯，你过去做年度挑战，我觉得你现在在做每周挑战。你在设计 T 恤，你在制作雕塑，你在养牛……我觉得你有每周挑战。

Mark: I'm trying to do inspiring things. I'm also really competitive.

马克：我正在努力做一些鼓舞人心的事情。我也非常有竞争力。

David: Who's your competition for this?

大卫：你在这方面的竞争对手是谁？

Mark: What do you mean? I was just thinking about other things that I'm doing. I'm like what have I started doing? I got into all these more extreme sports and fighting and stuff. I mean we face a lot of competition and a lot of different aspects of what we do. I mean there's the social media competitors, there's the platform competitors.

马克：你是什么意思？我只是在想我正在做的其他事情。我在想我开始做了什么？我开始参与所有这些更极限的运动和格斗之类的东西。我的意思是我们在很多不同方面面临很多竞争。我是说有社交媒体的竞争对手，还有平台的竞争对手。

I think Apple is a bigger competitor than people realize. They kind of think, hey, they're doing a different type of thing, but I don't know. I think over the next 10, 15 years, that kind of battle over, ideological battle over, what should the architecture be of the next set of platforms? Are they going to be the closed, integrated Apple model that Apple has always done, which again I mean like there's multiple, there are multiple good ways to build things.

我认为苹果是一个比人们意识到的更大的竞争对手。他们有点像，嘿，他们在做不同类型的事情，但我不知道。我认为在接下来的 10 到 15 年里，这种关于下一代平台架构应该是什么的意识形态之争会持续下去。它们会是苹果一直以来的封闭、集成的苹果模式吗？我意思是，有多种好的方式来构建事物。

If you look at the different generations of computing, PCs, mobile, they've all had sort of a closed, integrated version and an open version. And the thing that I think there's just a ton of 'recency bias' around is because iPhone basically won. I know that there are more Android phones out there, but iPhone is sort of like the intellectual leader and by far has all the rights.

如果你看看不同代的计算技术，PC、移动设备，它们都有一种封闭、集成的版本和一个开放的版本。而我认为现在有大量“近期偏见”的原因是因为 iPhone 基本上赢了。我知道有更多的安卓手机，但 iPhone 有点像是知识领袖，并且远远拥有所有的权利。

David: Let's take it as a conceit.

大卫：我们就把它当作一个自负吧。

Mark: I think that there's the recency bias, and probably almost everyone here has an iPhone and I think that because of the recency bias, there's sort of this view that's like, oh no, this is just the superior way to do things, but I don't actually think that's a given.

马克：我认为存在近期偏见，可能这里几乎每个人都有一部 iPhone，我认为由于近期偏见，有一种观点认为，哦不，这只是做事的更优方式，但我实际上并不认为这是理所当然的。

In the PC era, windows, with the open ecosystem, was the leader, and part of my goal for the next 10, 15 years the next generation of platforms is to build the next generation of open platforms and have the open platforms win, and I think that that's going to lead to a much more vibrant tech industry. Now there are advantages of doing a closed and integrated model. I think Apple will have a place for sure.

在 PC 时代，Windows 凭借开放的生态系统成为领导者，而我未来 10 到 15 年的目标之一是构建下一代开放平台，并让开放平台获胜，我认为这将引领一个更加充满活力的科技行业。现在，采用封闭和集成模式也有其优势。我认为苹果肯定会有一席之地。

I expect them to be our primary competitor and I think it will not be just a product competition. I think it's like a in some ways, very deeply values-driven and ideological competition around what the future of the tech industry should be and how open these platforms whether it's things like Llama and AI or the glasses or different things should be for developers, like an individual, someone getting started in their dorm room like me to not have to ask for permission to go build the next set of awesome things.

我预计他们将成为我们的主要竞争对手，我认为这不仅仅是产品竞争。我认为这在某些方面是一个非常深刻的价值驱动和意识形态的竞争，围绕着科技行业的未来应该是什么样子，以及这些平台是否开放，无论是像 Llama 和 AI 这样的东西，还是眼镜或其他不同的东西，应该为开发者开放，比如一个个人，像我这样在宿舍里刚起步的人，不必请求许可就可以去构建下一组令人惊叹的东西。

Ben: I've got a closing question here.

本：我这里有一个结束问题。

Mark: Please. Thank you.

马克：请。谢谢。

Ben: We have a lot of builders in the audience tonight, a lot of founders. We're in probably the most interesting technology environment since the early mobile days in terms of opportunity. It's been 20 years. You might have to go back a little bit, but what advice do you have for founders today on something that's different than trying to 'pattern-match' Mark Zuckerberg from 2004, given we live in a different world today?

本：今晚我们有很多建筑者在场，还有很多创始人。就机会而言，我们可能处于自早期移动时代以来最有趣的技术环境中。已经过去 20 年了。你可能需要回顾一下，但在今天这个不同于 2004 年试图“模式匹配”马克·扎克伯格的世界中，你对创始人有什么建议？

Mark: I mean just do something that you care about. If you're trying to run our strategy, try to learn as quickly as you can. But I mean if there's like, I think part of what I'm trying to say is, I think there are different ways to build stuff right? It's like our way worked for me and our team. Different things have clearly worked for other companies, I don't know.

马克：我的意思是做一些你关心的事情。如果你在尝试执行我们的策略，尽量快速学习。但我的意思是，如果有的话，我想我想说的是，我认为有不同的方法来构建东西，对吧？就像我们的方式对我和我们的团队有效。显然，不同的事情对其他公司也有效，我不知道。

One day my daughter, we took her to a Taylor Swift concert and she was like you know, Dad, I kind of want to be like Taylor Swift when I grow up. I was like you can't, that's not available to you. She thought about it and she's like all right, when I grow up, I want people to want to be like August Chan Zuckerberg. And I was like hell yeah. Hell yeah. I think it's like look, learn from other people's successes and failures, but do your own thing.

有一天，我的女儿，我们带她去看泰勒·斯威夫特的演唱会，她说，爸爸，我长大后有点想像泰勒·斯威夫特那样。我说你不能，那对你来说是不可能的。她想了想，然后说，好吧，我长大后，我希望人们想成为像奥古斯特·陈·扎克伯格那样的人。我当时想，太棒了。太棒了。我觉得这就像，看，从别人的成功和失败中学习，但要做自己的事情。

David: I love that. Love that. Well, that is the perfect place to leave things.

大卫：我喜欢这样。喜欢这样。好吧，那是结束话题的完美时机。

Ben: We made you something that you already have a very amazing, well-designed shirt. I hope you have room in your life for more than one.

本：我们为你制作了一件你已经拥有的非常惊艳、设计精美的衬衫。我希望你的生活中能容纳不止一件。

Mark: I do. I used to only wear one type of shirt. Now I've moved on.

马克：是的。我以前只穿一种类型的衬衫。现在我已经改变了。

Ben: So, David and I made you a custom one-of-one shirt that represents tonight.

本：所以，David 和我为你定制了一件独一无二的衬衫，代表今晚。

Mark: Thank you. 马克：谢谢你。

Ben: It is size Zuck, so no one else can you know. It can never be made again. And we've got these coordinates on the back, the first one.

本：这是 Zuck 尺寸，所以没有其他人能知道。它永远无法再被制造。而且我们在背面有这些坐标，第一个。

David: GPS coordinates. 大卫：GPS 坐标。

Ben: GPS coordinates. The first one represents Kirkland House, where you wrote the first line of code for Facebook, and the second one is the Chase Center. Awesome, so thank you for joining us here tonight.

本：GPS 坐标。第一个代表柯克兰宿舍，你在那写下了 Facebook 的第一行代码，第二个是大通中心。太棒了，非常感谢你今晚加入我们。

David: Thank you for joining us.

大卫：感谢您的加入。

Ben: Wow. 本：哇。

David: What a night

大卫：真是个夜晚

Ben: Absolutely crazy. I mean, Mark has done many interviews this year, both with other podcasts and in traditional press, but that felt different If for no other reason than it happened, live in front of a 6,000 person audience in an arena. But I wasn't expecting it to feel that different.

本：简直疯狂。我的意思是，马克今年做了很多采访，无论是与其他播客还是在传统媒体中，但这次感觉不同，哪怕只是因为它是在一个有 6,000 人观众的体育馆里现场进行的。但我没想到会感觉如此不同。

David: Yeah, I mean, it was, I think, the wildest experience of my life being up there. I don't even know what else could compare.

大卫：是的，我的意思是，我认为这是我一生中最疯狂的经历。我甚至不知道还有什么能与之相比。

Ben: Pretty insane. Well, listeners, as you may have noticed, thanks to our sponsors, this conversation was uninterrupted and we do want to reflect a little bit and share some of our thoughts and our...you know how we're feeling looking back on this conversation with you. But first we do want to share a word on Statsig and Crusoe.

本：相当疯狂。听众们，正如你们可能已经注意到的，感谢我们的赞助商，这次对话没有中断，我们确实想稍微反思一下，并分享我们的一些想法和……你知道的，我们回顾这次对话时的感受。但首先，我们想谈谈 Statsig 和 Crusoe。

David: Statsig. Mark's most famous catchphrase is probably 'move fast and break things'. But, like we talked about with him, despite instilling this in Facebook's engineering culture, Facebook doesn't actually break very often. How?

大卫：Statsig。马克最著名的口号可能是“快速行动，打破常规”。但是，正如我们与他谈论的那样，尽管将这一理念植入了 Facebook 的工程文化中，Facebook 实际上并不经常出问题。为什么？

Ben: Certainly not anymore and really, relative to its peers, not even throughout its past. Yeah, Facebook invested hundreds of thousands of engineering hours in a set of internal tools. These tools let any engineer set up new metrics, ship new features and measure performance in real time. That means anyone could just ship a new feature, but they always had metrics to use as guardrails and they could always roll back a feature if anything broke.

本：当然不再是这样了，而且相对于其同行，过去也不是这样。是的，Facebook 投入了数十万小时的工程时间来开发一套内部工具。这些工具允许任何工程师设置新的指标、发布新功能并实时测量性能。这意味着任何人都可以发布新功能，但他们总是有指标作为护栏，并且如果出现问题，他们总是可以回滚功能。

David: Oh man, there are legendary stories of engineers shipping features like in their first week at bootcamp as interns or new hires at Facebook and Meta over the years, and you might wish that you could do the same on your team and build products like they build products at Facebook. Ship fast, make database decisions, iterate rapidly, but you need the right tools, so you're stuck right.

David: 哦，天哪，多年来有关于工程师在他们作为实习生或新员工在 Facebook 和 Meta 的训练营第一周就发布功能的传奇故事，你可能希望你能在你的团队中做到同样的事情，并像他们在 Facebook 那样构建产品。快速发布，做出数据库决策，快速迭代，但你需要合适的工具，所以你被困住了，对吧。

Ben: Well enter Statsig. Statsig has built the world's first product acceleration platform, combining tools like feature flags, product analytics, experimentation and observability all in one place, helping you move faster and make smarter decisions.

本：那么进入 Statsig。Statsig 构建了世界上第一个产品加速平台，将功能标志、产品分析、实验和可观测性等工具结合在一起，帮助您更快地行动并做出更明智的决策。

David: Even better, Statsig was literally founded by an ex-Meta team who wanted to help everyone build like the best and bring these same tools to the market. Today, many of the world's leading tech companies rely on Statsig, including OpenAI, Microsoft Notion, Anthropic, Figma, plus thousands of early stage startups.

David：更好的是，Statsig 实际上是由一支前 Meta 团队创立的，他们希望帮助每个人像最优秀的人一样构建，并将这些相同的工具推向市场。如今，世界上许多领先的科技公司依赖于 Statsig，包括 OpenAI、Microsoft、Notion、Anthropic、Figma，以及数千家早期初创公司。

Ben: David, every time we work with Statsig, this list gets more and more impressive. Like now it is purely, you know, A-list companies.

本：大卫，每次我们与 Statsig 合作时，这个名单都变得越来越令人印象深刻。就像现在，你知道的，都是顶级公司。

David: It's awesome. So if you're ready to accelerate your growth and democratize product building at your company, go to statsig.com/acquired and when you get in touch, just tell them that Ben and David sent you.

大卫：这太棒了。所以，如果你准备好加速增长并在公司内实现产品构建的民主化，请访问 statsig.com/acquired，当你联系他们时，只需告诉他们是本和大卫推荐的。

Ben: Thanks, Statsig. 本：谢谢，Statsig。

David: Now for Crusoe. Crusoe is a climate-aligned cloud platform built specifically for AI workloads and powered by clean energy. They build and operate GPU data centers powered by low-cost stranded energy that otherwise goes to waste or, worse, gets emitted as greenhouse gasses.

大卫：现在来说说 Crusoe。Crusoe 是一个专为 AI 工作负载构建的气候对齐云平台，由清洁能源驱动。他们建立并运营由低成本搁浅能源驱动的 GPU 数据中心，这些能源否则会被浪费，或者更糟糕的是，以温室气体的形式排放。

Ben: It's crazy. When Acquired first started working with Crusoe, this was a cool idea. Now they're like one of the most important companies in the world, with an AI cloud that's superior to the hyperscalers and a whole bunch of the largest companies in the world trusting their AI infrastructure to them.

本：这太疯狂了。当 Acquired 刚开始与 Crusoe 合作时，这只是一个很酷的想法。现在，他们就像是世界上最重要的公司之一，拥有比超大规模云更强大的 AI 云，全球许多最大公司都信任他们的 AI 基础设施。

David: Yeah, it's easy to think about AI as like oh, that's a bunch of PhDs at Meta or OpenAI or Anthropic or whatever you know, tinkering with model weights in their office and hitting compute. But there's this whole other industrial side of AI. That's everything that happens after you press go on the model training and that's energy, cooling, construction, all the physical infrastructure behind AI.

大卫：是的，人们很容易把 AI 想象成哦，那是一群在 Meta、OpenAI 或 Anthropic 等公司工作的博士们，在他们的办公室里调整模型权重并进行计算。但 AI 还有另一个工业方面。那就是在你启动模型训练后发生的一切，包括能源、冷却、建设，以及 AI 背后的所有物理基础设施。

Ben: And Crusoe is powering that by producing or repurposing huge amounts of power. We are talking gigawatts in their development pipeline, which is 'nuclear reactor' amounts of power for less cost than other providers and with zero or in some cases, actually negative emissions. It's super important. If you listen to Zuck and others talk about what the bottleneck to AI progress is, it's actually not compute, but energy and Crusoe is solving that problem.

本：Crusoe 通过生产或重新利用大量电力来支持这一点。我们谈论的是他们开发管道中的千兆瓦级电力，这相当于“核反应堆”级别的电力，但成本低于其他供应商，并且在某些情况下，实际上是零排放或负排放。这非常重要。如果你听 Zuck 和其他人谈论 AI 进步的瓶颈是什么，实际上不是计算能力，而是能源，而 Crusoe 正在解决这个问题。

David: It's just an awesome company. We are super proud to work with them and to be investors in the company. You can work with Crusoe either through their managed AI cloud, which is great for startups and enterprises who want a complete end-to-end platform for AI, or directly as a data center customer, which several of the largest companies in the world are now doing. So, just going over to crusoe.ai/acquired that's C-R-U-S-O-E dot A-I slash acquired or click the link in the show notes and tell them that Ben and David sent you.

大卫：这真是一个了不起的公司。我们非常自豪能与他们合作并成为公司的投资者。您可以通过他们的托管 AI 云与 Crusoe 合作，这对希望获得完整端到端 AI 平台的初创企业和大型企业来说非常棒，或者直接作为数据中心客户合作，目前世界上几家最大的公司正在这样做。所以，只需访问 crusoe.ai/acquired，也就是 C-R-U-S-O-E 点 A-I 斜杠 acquired，或者点击节目备注中的链接，并告诉他们是 Ben 和 David 推荐的。

Ben: Okay. David, reflections on this conversation, the biggest thing that I kept thinking going into the night, as we're talking with Mark, as we're talking with his team, you know, people kept saying we don't really do this, Mark doesn't really do this. And I kept thinking, yeah, he kind of does, because he's done all these podcasts this year and...

本：好的。大卫，对这次谈话的反思，我一直在想的最大事情是，当我们和马克谈话时，当我们和他的团队谈话时，人们一直在说我们真的不这样做，马克真的不这样做。我一直在想，是的，他确实有点这样做，因为他今年做了所有这些播客，而且……

David: He does Facebook Meta Connect like he's done, big events before, of course.

大卫：他像以前一样参加了 Facebook Meta Connect 这样的重大活动，当然。

Ben: Right, and he does a good number of in-person press interviews too. It's not like he doesn't talk to the traditional press, even though that has kind of become a narrative. It's not really true. However, Mark has not done an external several thousand person live thing like this. This is a very unusual format and kind of an uncomfortable one even for you and I, like we're so used to stopping starting being thoughtful in our answers and like this is a show - you're performing. There are no breaks,

本：对，他也做了很多面对面的新闻采访。虽然有一种说法是他不和传统媒体交流，但这并不是真的。然而，马克还没有做过像这样的几千人现场活动。这是一种非常不寻常的形式，即使对你我来说也有点不舒服，因为我们习惯于在回答中停顿思考，而这是一场表演——你在表演。没有休息时间。

David: There's no retakes, yeah

大卫：没有重拍，是的

Ben: Right, but Mark and like all the Meta execs really embraced it. A bunch of the executive team came like they took off this whole day and actually some stuff we did the night before too.

本：对，但马克和所有 Meta 高管真的很接受它。一群高管团队来了，他们整天都在这里，实际上我们前一天晚上也做了一些事情。

David: A bunch of the board members were there. A lot of people important to Mark were there.

大卫：一群董事会成员在那里。很多对马克重要的人也在那里。

Ben: His family came.

本：他的家人来了。

David: They made it an event,

大卫：他们把它变成了一场活动，

Ben: Right. I thought this was a big deal for us. I was kind of shocked to the degree that Mark also thought it was a big deal for him,

本：对。我以为这对我们来说是件大事。我有点震惊的是，马克也认为这对他来说是件大事。

David: Which is super cool. Totally agree.

大卫：这太酷了。完全同意。

Ben: That's one. I was also surprised and delighted that he was willing to dive into history with us.

本：那是一个。我也感到惊讶和高兴的是，他愿意和我们一起深入研究历史。

David: Yes, we totally did not expect that. He's usually so maniacally focused on the future and in our conversations to prep with him before the event, he was like, I think of you guys as a history podcast, you know, let's talk about the future. I'm like okay, okay, but we want to ground it in history. And he showed up and was totally ready to go back and I think that made the talking about the present and the future even better.

大卫：是的，我们完全没有预料到。他通常非常专注于未来，在活动前与他准备的对话中，他就像，我把你们看作是一个历史播客，你知道的，我们来谈谈未来。我就像好的，好的，但我们想把它建立在历史的基础上。他出现时完全准备好回顾过去，我认为这让谈论现在和未来变得更好。

Ben: Totally, because you could create these through lines. I mean, as funny as your interjection on let's go back to the IPO moment, was it opened up the door to have these comparative moments too, is what Meta doing today, is that similar to something that you've done over and over? Should we be watching for a pattern here, or are you very different today than you were historically? The way that he was talking about that stuff on stage felt very authentic, and I just haven't heard him speak in that way before, at least publicly.

本：完全同意，因为你可以创建这些贯穿线。我的意思是，尽管你插入的“让我们回到 IPO 时刻”很有趣，但它也打开了进行比较的机会，Meta 今天在做的事情，是否类似于你过去反复做的事情？我们是否应该关注这里的某种模式，还是你今天与过去有很大不同？他在台上谈论这些事情的方式感觉非常真实，而我以前从未听过他以这种方式讲话，至少在公开场合没有。

David: I think it was also a great way to let us all get a window into his psyche, which kind of brings us to another point, which is like he is still in it. Oh, what other founders of companies like that? I mean there's Jensen, who else? You know, it's the two of them.

大卫：我觉得这也是让我们了解他内心世界的一个好方法，这也引出了另一个话题，就是他仍然在其中。哦，还有哪些公司的创始人是这样的？我是说有 Jensen，还有谁？你知道，就是他们两个。

Ben: Yeah, I think the casual observer to Meta might observe, like you know, Mark's been running it for 20 years and most of the time these founders kind of like go and do something else. They become executive chairman or they like stepped into a board role or they own 4% of the companies. There's some pattern there and for Mark I think it was plain as day on stage.

本：是的，我认为对 Meta 的普通观察者可能会注意到，比如说，马克已经经营了 20 年，而大多数时候这些创始人会去做其他事情。他们成为执行主席，或者进入董事会角色，或者拥有公司 4%的股份。这里有一些模式，而对于马克来说，我认为在舞台上是显而易见的。

He is more in it than ever and I don't think he thinks he's like halfway through his journey, like I don't think he's 20 years in. At 40, I'll be done. I don't get that sense either. I think Meta is his vehicle by which he wants to live his entire life and he wants to make things with this group of people that he wants to make, period, and that is kind of the product strategy.

他比以往任何时候都更加投入，我不认为他觉得自己已经走完了一半的旅程，我不认为他已经走了 20 年。在 40 岁时，我会完成。我也没有这种感觉。我认为 Meta 是他想要度过一生的载体，他想和这群人一起创造他想要创造的东西，这就是产品战略。

David: I got chills when he said the 20-year mistake, and then I got even more chills when he said but 20 years actually isn't that long.

大卫：当他说 20 年的错误时，我感到一阵寒意，然后当他说但 20 年其实并不长时，我感到更加寒意。

Ben: Yeah, that's a pretty illustrative comment. Totally, I was appreciative that he engaged with us on the 'be critical of the company', because, honestly, I was asking that as research for when we inevitably do our Meta episode. I think he gave us a regret, not a criticism, but we were live on stage in front of 6,000 people and it's not really the right format for that.

本：是的，那是一个非常有启发性的评论。完全同意，我很感激他参与了我们关于“批评公司”的讨论，因为说实话，我是在为我们不可避免地要做的 Meta 专题做研究。我认为他给了我们一个遗憾，而不是批评，但我们当时是在 6000 人面前的现场舞台上，这并不是一个合适的场合。

David: Yep totally. 大卫：是的，完全同意。

Ben: That said obviously a very interesting answer.

本：那显然是一个非常有趣的答案。

David: I think related though back to the, 'he's still in it' - in some sense Reality Labs you could look at like his blue origin.

大卫：我认为这还是与“他仍然在其中”有关——在某种意义上，你可以把 Reality Labs 看作是他的蓝色起源。

Ben: A hundred percent.

本：百分之百。

David: It's just within Meta.

大卫：这仅限于 Meta 内部。

Ben: I'm glad you caught this too. Other big tech CEO founders have their moment running the company, they take a board role. They go do another thing and oftentimes it's big and important for the world and capital intensive and Mark is doing that -but inside Meta, with Reality Labs.I think it'll be super fascinating 20 to 50 years from now to reflect back and say what were the unintended or perhaps intended outcomes of co-mingling multiple huge swings under one corporate umbrella versus having people who are either CEO of multiple companies concurrently or, you know, step down from one to run the other.

本：我很高兴你也注意到了这一点。其他大型科技公司的创始人兼 CEO 在经营公司时有他们的时刻，他们会担任董事会职务。他们去做其他事情，通常是对世界重要且资本密集的事情，而马克正在做的就是这样——但在 Meta 内部，通过 Reality Labs。我认为从现在起 20 到 50 年后回顾时，会非常有趣地反思，将多个巨大举措合并在一个公司旗下的意外或可能是有意的结果是什么，而不是让人们同时担任多家公司的 CEO，或者从一家辞职去经营另一家。

For Mark, I kind of feel like, again, Meta is his vehicle for executing the things that he thinks are awesome products, and of course, it's not just awesome products but like things that could let him have more control over his universe. He's clearly a guy who values having a lot of degrees of freedom and doesn't like being boxed in.

对于马克，我有点觉得，Meta 是他用来实现他认为很棒的产品的工具，当然，不仅仅是很棒的产品，还有那些可以让他对自己的世界有更多控制的东西。他显然是一个重视拥有大量自由度的人，不喜欢被束缚。

David: I loved your turn-based strategy game of get more turns. Learn more on each turn. Oh man, Starcraft Pro Player 101 there.

大卫：我喜欢你那个回合制策略游戏，获取更多回合。每回合学习更多。天哪，星际争霸职业玩家 101 在那里。

Ben: Yes, but it'll be interesting to see the knock-on effects of having Reality Labs in the Meta organization versus as a new venture.

本：是的，但看看在 Meta 组织中拥有 Reality Labs 与作为一个新企业的连锁反应会很有趣。

David: Totally. All of that brings me to frankly, just my biggest overwhelming takeaway from the whole experience, which is, Ben:, you've developed a really great research interview question that you use on all the sources that we talk to now, which is you ask, "what is the one thing that is most misunderstood about this company, this organization, etc”.

大卫：完全同意。所有这些让我坦率地说，我从整个经历中得到的最大收获是，Ben：你开发了一个非常好的研究访谈问题，你现在对我们交谈的所有来源都使用这个问题，你问：“关于这家公司、这个组织等，最容易被误解的一件事是什么？”

And everybody at Meta for years always would say Mark and I never totally got it until this evening. He's both a singular individual himself. But it's not just that, it's that a true superpower of the company is that it is architected from top to bottom legally, financially, organizationally,

多年来，Meta 的每个人总是说马克和我从未完全理解这一点，直到今晚。他既是一个独特的个体。但不仅如此，公司真正的超级力量在于它从上到下在法律、财务、组织上都被架构化。

Ben: Culturally... 本：从文化上讲...

David: Culturally to reflect and amplify his immense strength.

大卫：文化上反映并放大了他巨大的力量。

Ben: Which I think is probably true of, like Apple, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Microsoft, NVIDIA, Jensen. Yes, but we are right up close to the ways in which Meta is a sort of an amplifier, almost like it's a way for you to take the gain on Mark's output and turn it up, you know, 10,000x.

本：我认为这可能适用于像苹果、史蒂夫·乔布斯、比尔·盖茨、微软、NVIDIA、黄仁勋。是的，但我们非常接近于 Meta 作为一种放大器的方式，几乎就像是你可以将马克的输出增益提高到一万倍。

David: Yes, and I think what was so striking about it to me versus you're absolutely right all those other companies. It is generally accepted in the public narrative about Apple under Steve Jobs, about NVIDIA under Jensen, that that is the case. I don't think it is about Meta and Mark. I don't think people understand that. I didn't understand that until this experience.

大卫：是的，我认为让我感到震惊的是，与其他公司相比，你说得完全正确。公众普遍接受关于史蒂夫·乔布斯领导下的苹果公司和黄仁勋领导下的 NVIDIA 的叙述，我认为 Meta 和马克并不是这样。我认为人们并不了解这一点。在这次经历之前，我也不明白。

Ben: Are you saying Meta is still very much a Mark Zuckerberg production? I'll see myself out.

本：你是说 Meta 仍然是马克·扎克伯格的作品吗？我自己走出去。

David: Well put, there we go.

大卫：说得好，我们开始吧。

Ben: Well listeners, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. Come talk about it with us in the Slack acquired.fm/slack. We'd love to hear all of your thoughts as well. Join our email list acquired.fm/email. That will let you basically know every single time a new episode drops or when we are doing something like Chase Center again, to be the first to know about that. God, if we ever do something like that again.

本：各位听众，非常感谢你们加入我们的旅程。欢迎在 Slack 上与我们讨论，网址是 acquired.fm/slack。我们也很想听到你们的所有想法。加入我们的邮件列表 acquired.fm/email。这样你就能在每次有新剧集发布或我们再次举办类似 Chase Center 的活动时，第一时间知道。如果我们再做类似的事情，真是太好了。

We've got a merch store. Check it out. On acquired.fm. We've got ACQ2, our second show, where we are always interviewing earlier stage companies than Meta, but where we think there are great insightful conversations with founders and CEOs. And, David, I know you've got some thank yous.

我们有一个商品商店。去看看吧。在 acquired.fm 上。我们有 ACQ2，这是我们的第二个节目，我们总是采访比 Meta 更早期的公司，但我们认为与创始人和 CEO 的对话非常有见地。还有，大卫，我知道你有一些感谢要表达。

David: One last thing, final thank yous. Thank you to Mark, thank you to basically the entire Meta executive team who helped with the evening. Thank you to Hermes for dressing us, which was my favorite Easter egg of the night.

大卫：最后一件事，最后的感谢。感谢马克，感谢几乎整个 Meta 高管团队为今晚的帮助。感谢 Hermes 为我们提供服装，这是我今晚最喜欢的彩蛋。

Ben: Yes, so fun. Thank you to Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase, and JP Morgan Payments for making it all possible. It was truly a dream come true, and that is because of our incredible partnership.

本：是的，非常有趣。感谢 Jamie Dimon、摩根大通和摩根大通支付让这一切成为可能。这真的是梦想成真，这都归功于我们令人难以置信的合作伙伴关系。

David: Indeed, it was. Well listeners, we'll see you next time.

大卫：确实如此。听众朋友们，我们下次再见。

Ben: Yes, in a couple of weeks with the full show, we are pumped to drop it. We'll see you next time.

本：是的，再过几周我们就会带着完整的节目上线。下次见。

Note: Acquired hosts and guests may hold assets discussed in this episode. This podcast is not investment advice, and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. You should do your own research and make your own independent decisions when considering any financial transactions.

注意：获得的主持人和嘉宾可能持有本集中讨论的资产。本播客不构成投资建议，仅供信息和娱乐用途。在考虑任何金融交易时，您应自行研究并做出独立决策。

2024-09-29 ACQUIRED.Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, Jensen Huang and Mark Zuckerberg

2024-09-29 ACQUIRED.Daniel Ek, Emily Chang, Jensen Huang and Mark Zuckerberg

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