Steve Forbes: But how did you... What was that extra thing where so many will acknowledge that, and yet we saw in the current crisis, they panicked while you went into seemingly potential disasters like GE and Goldman Sachs.

Steve Forbes：但你是怎么做到的……那个“额外的东西”是什么？很多人都承认这些道理，可是在这场危机中，我们看到他们恐慌了，而你却走进了像 GE 和 Goldman Sachs 这样看似可能灾难的交易里。

Warren Buffet: I can't really tell you the answer--I didn't learn it in school or anything. I just, it never bothered me if people disagreed with what I thought, as long as I felt I knew the facts. There's a whole bunch of things I don't know a think about, and I just stay away from those. So I stay within what I call my circle of competence. Tom Watson said it best, he said, "I'm no genius, but I'm smart in spots, and I stay around those spots." Well, I try and stay around those spots. And I just don't have a problem if somebody says you're wrong on something. I go back and look at the facts. And I think that really is much more important, frankly, than having a few points of IQ or having an extra course or two in in school or anything of the sort. You need emotional stability.

Warren Buffet：我说不出一个标准答案——我不是在学校里学到的。我只是这样：只要我觉得自己掌握了事实，别人不同意我的看法也不会困扰我。有一大堆我不懂、不想懂的东西，我就远离它们。所以我待在我称之为“能力圈”的范围内。Tom Watson 讲得最好，他说：“我不是天才，但我在某些方面很聪明，而且我一直呆在那些方面。”我也尽量只呆在那些方面。有人说你在某件事上错了，我也不在意，我会回去再核对事实。坦白说，我认为这比智商多几分、或者多上几门课之类的要重要得多。你需要的是情绪稳定。

Steve Forbes: And so in terms of people who are not even in the business, if they... I think we're talking now, when we had dinner the other day, about how in tennis, most of us are never going to get to Wimbledon. But if we just focus, as somebody once said, "Get the ball over the net. Don't try to be fancy about it, just get the ball over the net, you'll do fine."

Steve Forbes：所以对于那些甚至不在这个行业里的人来说，如果他们……我记得我们那天共进晚餐时谈到网球，大多数人都去不了温网。但如果我们专注于一件事，正如有人说的，“把球击过网。别花哨，先把球打过网，你就会做得不错。”

Warren Buffet: Yeah, and that's a little bit like, I've got this rule, The first rule is don't lose. And the second rule is never forget the first rule. So it really isn't so much having a lot of brilliant decisions. It's just not really having some terrible ones. And frankly, I did learn from Ben Graham how to avoid ever having any disasters in investments. It wasn't that you were going to come up with the very smartest thing, but if you never have any significant losses, some singles and doubles will produce a lot of runs before you get through.

Warren Buffet：是的，这有点像我的一条规则：第一条，别亏钱。第二条，永远别忘了第一条。所以关键不在于做出多少“绝妙”的决定，而是别做出那些很糟糕的决定。坦率说，我从 Ben Graham 那里学到的是如何避免投资中的灾难。不是要想出最聪明的点子，而是如果你从不遭受重大亏损，靠“安打”和“二垒打”就能在整场比赛中得到很多分。

Steve Forbes: Who was Ben Graham? He was your primary mentor, model?

Steve Forbes：Ben Graham 是谁？他是你的主要导师、榜样吗？

Warren Buffet: He was a wonderful man. And he was my professor at Columbia. I read his book when I was 19 at the University of Nebraska. And I'd started investing when I was 11. I started reading about it when I was like seven. So I've gone through all... I've read every book in the Omaha Public Library by the time I was 12 on investing and stock market. And I had a lot of fun, but I never really found out... I never got grounded in anything, and it was entertaining, but it wasn't going to be profitable. And then I read Graham's book, The Intelligent Investor, when I was at University of Nebraska, and that just opened up the whole thing up to me. My oldest son is named Howard after my dad, Graham, Buffett. And he was a marvelous man, never expected anything from me in return. He just did all these things for younger people.

Warren Buffet：他是个了不起的人，也是我在 Columbia 的教授。我19岁在 University of Nebraska 时读到他的书。我11岁就开始投资，大概七岁就开始读相关书了。到12岁时，Omaha Public Library 里关于投资和股市的书我几乎都读过。我看得很开心，但从未真正找到“根基”，读起来很有趣，却不一定能赚到钱。后来我在 University of Nebraska 读到了 Graham 的《The Intelligent Investor》，那本书一下子把整套方法向我打开了。我大儿子叫 Howard，前面是以我父亲命名，后面是 Graham、Buffett。他（Graham）是个极好的人，从不图我回报，总是无私地帮助年轻人。

Steve Forbes: Yeah, but just a couple of quick examples of the things that he did that you will look back on. It's one thing to read something, but quite another to see it in action.

Steve Forbes：是的，但能不能举两个他“身体力行”的例子？读到书本是一回事，看到实践又是另一回事。

Warren Buffet: Well, what he did was he got me thinking not as a stock as something with a ticker symbol that wiggles around and that you look at charts [on earning]. It taught me to think about it as part of a business. And that was vital. And he taught me not to really pay any attention to stock market fluctuations except when they were working in my favor, so that, not to get you know elated because something had gone up or depressed because it went down. So if I knew the facts on something and it went down, I bought more of it, because I looked at it as a business. And then he taught that famous lesson about a margin of safety, that you don't drive a truck that weighs 9900 pounds across a bridge that says limit 10,000 pounds, because you can't be that sure about it. If you see something like that, you get out a little further down the road, and you find one that says limit 20,000 pounds, and that's the one you drive across.

Warren Buffet：他让我别把股票当成一个随报价器上下抖动、靠看图表的符号；而要把它当作一家企业的一部分来思考——这至关重要。他还教我别在意市场波动，除非它对你有利；别因为涨了就兴奋、跌了就沮丧。如果我掌握了事实而股价下跌，我会买更多，因为我把它当成企业在看。然后是那条著名的“安全边际”课程：不要开一辆重 9900 磅的卡车去过标着“限重 10,000 磅”的桥，因为你不可能那么确定。你应当再往前开一段，找到一座标着“限重 20,000 磅”的桥，再开过去。

Steve Forbes: So he in effect, taught you that stocks weren't just numbers, those were shorthand for flesh and blood businesses. And very easy to overlook.

Steve Forbes：也就是说，他实际上教会你：股票不是一些数字，而是鲜活企业的速记符号——而这点很容易被忽略。

Warren Buffet: Absolutely. I've never forgotten.

Warren Buffet：没错。我一直铭记在心。

Steve Forbes: Jay, you are in a business that's perhaps even more competitive, because there's probably not a young person in the country who at some point in their lives wants to be an entertainer, a star. And you've not only have done it, but you've done it consistently. And even though you're only 40 going on 41, in that business, that's almost like 80 in Warren's world. It's tough to do more than one or two. Looking back, what were the things that broke you out of the pack in the most dramatic way possible?

Steve Forbes：Jay，你所处的行业或许更加竞争激烈，因为几乎没有哪个年轻人不曾在生命中的某个时刻想要做一名艺人、成为明星。而你不仅做到了，而且还长期稳定地做到。尽管你才40、快41，但在这个行业里，这几乎相当于 Warren 世界里的80岁。大多数人也就能出一两张作品。回头看，是什么因素以最具戏剧性的方式让你脱颖而出？

Jay-Z: When I was... as I was listening to him, I just hear all the similarities and all the things in what he's saying, right? Because if you don't look at it as tickers and things like that, you're really just searching for the truth within all that. And within all the numbers and all the chaos, you're just searching for the truth. And that's the key to being a recording artist. You're telling your story, or finding your truth, at the moment. Mine's a little opposite from Warren because I started a little later. My first album didn't come out till I was 26. So I had like, a bit more maturity of where I was at. My first album had all these emotions and complexities and layers to them that a typical hip hop album didn't have, because we were making it at 16-17 years old. There wasn't enough wealth of experience to share with the world. So at 26, I had been through so many different things, I had so much wealth to share with the world at that time. And from that starting point, I've never forgotten those things, like you say, I've never forget those true things that you stick to, your basic things that make you successful. And for me, it's that truth, finding that truth, the truth for the moment of where I am at the time. Not trying to cater to a certain demographic, or not being something I'm not, not driving the truck over bridge... the whole thing. Like, there's so many similarities in what he was just saying.

Jay-Z：当我……在听他讲话时，我听到很多相似之处、很多共通点。因为如果你不把它当作报价器和之类的东西来看，你其实就是在从中寻找“真相”。在所有数字与混乱之中，你在寻找真相。而这正是录音艺术家的关键：你此刻在讲述自己的故事，或者在寻找当下的真相。我的经历和 Warren 有点相反，因为我起步更晚。我的第一张专辑到26岁才发行。所以我对自我状态的成熟度更高些。我的首张专辑里有一堆情绪、复杂性与层次，这是典型的 hip hop 专辑不常有的，因为很多是在16—17岁时做的，那时并没有足够的人生阅历与世界分享。到了26岁，我经历了很多事，那时有很多“财富”可以分享。从那个起点开始，我就从未忘记那些东西——就像你说的，我从未忘记那些真正让你坚持、让你成功的根本。对我而言，就是那个“真相”，找到那个真相——当下我所处时刻的真相。不去迎合某个特定人群，不去扮演我并非如此的人，不把卡车开过那座桥……整体上，他刚才说的有太多相似点了。

Steve Forbes: Now, in terms of a mentor, you mentioned at a young age, you got a love of words. And before we recorded, you mentioned a sixth grade teacher brought that out in you that's lived a lifetime.

Steve Forbes：说到导师，你提到自己很小就热爱文字。而在我们录制前，你还提到六年级的一位老师把你对文字的热爱激发出来，并影响了一生。

Jay-Z: Yeah, I was telling you earlier, in our classrooms where we grew up, I grew up in Marcy Projects in Brooklyn. Our classrooms were flooded, so it was very difficult for teachers to give you one on one attention. And there was this one 6th grade teacher, her name was Ms. Lowden, and she must have saw something in me and she gave me this attention. And she gave me this love for words. It's just funny how it works. It's worked for me to this day. But just a little bit of attention. She also took us on a field trip to her house, which opened me up to the world. My neighborhood had been my world. It's the only thing I had seen. I just saw a whole different world, and my imagination grew from there. I wanted that. I aspired to have that. Small thing, she had like a ice thing on a refrigerator. You pushed ice and the water come down. I was really amazed by that. I was like, I want one of those. It's true.

Jay-Z：是的，我先前跟你说过，我在 Brooklyn 的 Marcy Projects 长大，我们的课堂学生很多，老师很难给到一对一的关注。但有位六年级老师，叫 Ms. Lowden，她大概在我身上看到了什么，于是给了我特别的关注，也让我爱上了文字。很有意思，这份爱到今天都在发挥作用。只是一点点的关注而已。她还带我们去她家做“实地参观”，这让我打开了眼界。此前我的社区就是我的世界，我只看见过那里。那天我看见了一个完全不同的世界，想象力从那时开始扩张。我渴望那样的生活，立志拥有那样的东西。很小的细节，比如她家冰箱上有制冰/出水装置，你按一下冰块就出来、还有水流下来。这让我很惊叹，我就想：我也想要一个。真的。

Steve Forbes: Now, you also, even though you didn't record your first album till you were 26, you, in effect, were writing music in your own mind.

Steve Forbes：另外，尽管你到26岁才录制第一张专辑，但实际上你早就已经在脑海里“写歌”了。

Jay-Z: Yeah, I was around music my whole life. My Mom and Pop had like huge record collection. So I started out listening to music early on and I would just write music. And I just had a love from there. I didn't get to it, I got caught into my neighborhood and my surroundings, but I've always taken it with me, and I've always went back to it, and it just got to a point where it was like, make this decision. This is something you really love and you'd love to do, it's time to really focus on it and get serious about it. Give it your all. And once I did that, it was no looking back from there.

Jay-Z：对，我的一生都在音乐的包围中长大。我的父母有一大堆唱片收藏，所以我很早就开始听音乐，也会随手写音乐。我从那时就爱上了音乐。虽然我一度没有真正投入，被社区与环境所牵扯，但我始终带着它，并不断回到它。后来到了一个节点，我必须作出决定：这就是你真正热爱的事，是你想做的事——是时候专注并认真对待，全力以赴。一旦我这么做了，就再也没有回头。

Steve Forbes: And you were able to overcome where you grew up. As you once put it, you saw what happened, and things like drug deals, where the life would end. And you decided at some point, I'm not going there.

Steve Forbes：而且你克服了成长环境的桎梏。正如你曾说过的，你亲眼见过身边的人做毒品交易、走向毁灭的人生，于是在某个时刻你决定：我不走那条路。

Jay-Z: Yeah, just, those sort of decisions that happen in many of our lives when we have... we're faced with that those fork in the road moments. I was around people, and I've seen people who were really, genuinely nice people, going away for 13 years, and all these unjust in Rockefeller laws. And I was just around that so much that I just told myself, Man, I have to make a decision at some point. And I made this decision to focus on music, which was my love. And it worked out.

Jay-Z：是的，这就是许多人生命里都会遇到的“岔路口”时刻。我身边有人、而且是非常好的人，被判了13年；还有那些 Rockefeller laws 里的不公。我在这样的环境里待得太久了，于是告诉自己：伙计，总得做个决定。于是我决定专注于音乐——我所热爱的事业。事实证明这是条正确的路。

Steve Forbes: Consistency. People have a love of music. They may do one or two or three albums, and then for some reason, they fade away. That hasn't happened to you.

Steve Forbes：稳定的持续性。很多人热爱音乐，可能出一两张、三张专辑，之后因为种种原因就淡出了。你没有这样。

Jay-Z: I think, again, it goes back to a bit of Warren was saying as well, like, it's discipline, as well. The discipline to not get caught up in the moment. Music is like stocks too. There's the hot thing of the moment, there's this hot electro sound, or the hot autotune voice, or the hot... whatever is new and exciting. And people tend to make emotional decisions based on that. They don't stick with what they know. This is who I am, this is what I do. And then they jump on this next hot thing, and it's not for you. So for me, just having the discipline, and having the confidence in who I am. And if I go into a studio, and if I find my truth of the moment, there are a number of people in the world that can relate to what I'm saying, and is going to buy into what I'm doing. Not because it's the new thing at the moment, but because it's my genuine emotions. This is how I feel. This is how I articulate the world. And just having the discipline to just be yourself.

Jay-Z：我认为这又回到了 Warren 说的一个点：纪律。不被当下所裹挟的纪律。音乐也像股票，总会有当下最热的东西——热门的电音、热门的 autotune 人声，或者任何让人兴奋的新东西。人们往往会基于这些做出情绪化的决策，而不是坚持他们真正懂的东西：这就是我，这就是我做的事。然后他们会跳到下一个热点，但那并不适合你。对我来说，关键是保持纪律，并对“我是谁”保持信心。如果我走进录音室，找到了当下的真相，世界上就会有一群人能共鸣并认可我的作品。不是因为它赶上了时髦，而是因为那是我真实的情感——我的感受，我表达世界的方式。保持纪律，做自己。

Steve Forbes: Because you once said, as an artist, you are fighting against everything that's new, and everyone's fascinations with new things.

Steve Forbes：因为你曾说过，作为艺术家，你要与所有“新东西”以及所有人对“新”的迷恋作斗争。

Jay-Z: Yeah--shiny things. People fall in love with shiny things.

Jay-Z：是的——闪亮的东西。人们总会爱上那些闪闪发光的东西。

Steve Forbes: So in essence, as you grow older, you bring an audience with you, because the topic of your music grows with you... it doesn't go stale.

Steve Forbes：所以本质上，随着你年龄增长，你也把听众一起“带大”了，因为你的音乐主题会与你一同成长……不会变得陈旧。

Jay-Z: Yeah. Because for hip hop, it's like 30 years old. Like hip hop is fairly a new genre of music. So we've never seen the maturation of hip hop in this sort of way. This never happened before. People would get a certain age and still try to pinpoint this young demographic, because hip hop was a young man's sport, but people that listen to hip hop when they're 18, they still gonna like hip hop when they 28. It's just that the voices in hip hop are not speaking directly to them anymore. Weren't--they weren't. They were speaking to an 18 year old demographic. So, you're 28, you don't have anything to listen to, because no one's relating to you. So my whole thing was, I'm not going to do that. I'm just gonna make the music that I love to make and I want to make, and I'm gonna mature with my music. And luckily for me, it was the right decision.

Jay-Z：是的。对 hip hop 来说，它大概才30来年——hip hop 其实是相对新兴的音乐类型。所以我们从未见过像这样关于 hip hop 的“成熟化”。以前没有发生过。很多人到了某个年纪仍试图瞄准年轻族群，因为 hip hop 曾被视作年轻人的运动；但18岁爱听 hip hop 的人，到了28岁仍会喜欢。只是 hip hop 里的声音不再直接对他们说话了。没有——没有在对他们说，而是在对18岁的人群说。所以你28岁时会发现无歌可听，因为没人与你“对话”。我的想法是，我不会那么做。我只做我热爱、我想做的音乐，让自己与音乐一同成熟。幸运的是，这对我而言是正确的决定。

Steve Forbes: When did you realize that not only did you have this ability with music, and not to get stale, but recognize too, you have to be treated also, even though you love it as a business, so that you don't end up as so many do. They lose everything they have, they are, in effect, indentured to companies, and they're not masters of their fate.

Steve Forbes：你什么时候意识到，自己不仅有保持音乐不过时的能力，还必须把它当作一门“业务”来对待——即便你热爱它——以免像许多人那样最后一无所有、事实上沦为公司“契约劳工”、失去对自己命运的掌控？

Jay-Z: Yeah, that was the greatest trick in music that people ever pulled off, is to convince artists that you can't be an artist and make money. I think the people that were making millions actually set that. I think they set that whole thing up. It was almost like shameful, like, especially in rock and roll, you had to pretend it--you got these millionaire guys who had to pretend as if they weren't successful at all, or it would be like a detriment to their career. Hip hop from the beginning, just, it was always been aspirational, just always broke that thing, that thing that an artist can't think as well. And I think, at the end of the day, as long as you... when you separate the two, you're not making music with business in mind, because you... at some point you have... it has to be real when they touch it, when they listen to it. Something has to resonate with them that's real. As long as you... when you're in the studio, you're an artist, you make music. And then after you finish, you market it to the world. I don't think anything is wrong with that. In fact, I know there's nothing wrong with that.

Jay-Z：是的，这是音乐圈里“最成功的骗局”：让艺术家相信“你不能既做艺术家又赚钱”。我觉得真正赚了上百万的人反而是设定这一套的人——他们把这一切都设置好了。几乎成了羞耻，尤其在 rock and roll 里，你看那些百万富翁还要装作自己一点都不成功，否则就会损害事业。hip hop 从一开始就很“渴望向上”（aspirational），一直在打破“艺术家不能兼顾思考与商业”的那堵墙。最终我认为，只要你——把两者分开：你在创作时不带商业那套，因为……在某一刻，当他们接触、聆听你的音乐时，必须是真实的，得有能与他们共鸣的真实东西。只要你……在录音室里，你是艺术家，你创作音乐；等你完成后，再把它推向世界。我不认为这里有什么问题。事实上，我很确定这没有任何问题。

Steve Forbes: So how... going right from the very beginning, you learn about the business of music, because you could...

Steve Forbes：那么——从最开始你是如何了解音乐的商业面的？因为你可以……

Jay-Z: Well, we were forced, yeah, we were forced in the beginning. I wish I could say we were geniuses and say, We're going to start our own company. That's not what happened. In the beginning, we went to every single label, and every single label shut that door on us. The genius thing that we did, was we didn't give up. We didn't say, because these guys, we use that What do they know? approach. We didn't give up at that point. I think that was the genius thing we did. We start selling our own CDs, and we built our own buzz, and then the record company came back to us. So now we had a different negotiation. It wasn't the same artist-label relationship. Now we retain ownership in our own company. And was the best thing for us.

Jay-Z：我们是被逼的，对，最开始是被逼的。我真希望能说我们一开始就天才地决定“自己开公司”，但事实不是这样。最初我们跑遍每一家唱片公司，每一家都把门关上。我们做的“天才之举”是：不放弃。我们采用“他们懂什么？”的心态，没有在那个节点认输。我觉得这才是我们的天才之处。我们开始自己卖 CD，自建声量，然后唱片公司又回来了。这时谈判完全不同了，不再是传统的“艺人—厂牌”关系。我们保留了自己公司的所有权——这对我们来说是最好的事。

Steve Forbes: Well, one of the things you did, fairly recently, was about three years ago, you are with a company, you're a President of a company, you saw firsthand what you thought was wrong with the music business, you wanted out, and you were willing to put money to get yourself out.

Steve Forbes：你最近做的一件事——大概三年前——当时你在一家公司任职为总裁，你亲眼看到音乐产业的问题所在，你想要离开，并且愿意出钱“赎身”。

Jay-Z: Yeah, I didn't necessarily want out. I wanted to work with them, but I wanted like a fund, in a sense.

Jay-Z：对，我并非一定要走。我想和他们一起做事，但我想要一只类似“基金”的东西，从某种意义上说。

Steve Forbes: Because you're a president of the company?

Steve Forbes：因为你当时是公司的总裁？

Jay-Z: Yeah, I was the President of Def Jam Records. And I wanted to... I wanted a fund to--I wanted to work there. Because what I wanted a fund to...

Jay-Z：是的，我是 Def Jam Records 的总裁。我想……我想要一只基金——我想在那儿干下去。因为我希望这只基金可以……

Steve Forbes: What struck you is, they take all these artists almost like throwing them against the wall, see which ones would stick. You thought that was a huge waste of money.

Steve Forbes：令你印象深刻的是，他们对艺人的做法几乎像“把人扔到墙上看谁粘得住”。你认为这极其浪费钱。

Jay-Z: Yeah, and the music business for a long time, a hit record solved all your problems. Because there wasn't the internet and there wasn't YouTube, and there wasn't so many other factors. It was just the music. So that model still exists, of just putting artists out and seeing what works. And as the machine started moving faster, a lot of things got lost in the process. A&R, and artist development. So it got to a point where, as the music business, we were releasing hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of albums every year, and the percentages was like really low. Like 56 albums, and four artists work, something like that. So I wanted to bring the entire culture into it. I wanted a fund so I could do other things aside from signing artists, like buy a television station or buy a club that we can develop these artists, or buy some headphones. It was just all these different things I wanted to do, and I don't think, at that time, they could really get their mind around it. It's not something they were willing to do. And I just felt like I would be a waste there. So I started my own thing, Roc Nation. And that's what we do. We pretty much... we have everything from... it's a publishing company, we have writers, it's a recording company, we have... it's a touring company, it's...

Jay-Z：对。长期以来，音乐行业里“一首爆款歌能解决一切”。因为那时候没有互联网、没有 YouTube，也没有那么多其他因素。只有音乐本身。所以“不断推出艺人看谁能火”的旧模型一直存在。随着这台机器越转越快，很多东西在过程中被丢掉了：A&R、艺人培养。结果变成一年发行成百上千张专辑，而真正成的比例极低——比如发了56张，可能也就4个艺人跑起来，类似那样。所以我想把“整套文化”都带进来。我想要一只基金，好让我能做签艺人之外的事，比如买一家电视台、买一家俱乐部来孵化艺人、或者做耳机之类。我有很多想做的事，但我觉得在当时他们很难理解，也不愿意去做。我意识到自己留在那里会被浪费，于是创立了自己的公司 Roc Nation。我们做的事情几乎涵盖一切——发行出版公司（有词曲作者）、录音公司、演出巡演公司，还有……

Steve Forbes: Did you have sleepless nights when you put, what was it, $5 million to buy out your last contract for an album?

Steve Forbes：当你拿出——应该是——500万美元去回购你那张专辑的最后一份合约时，你有没有因而辗转难眠？

Jay-Z: Yeah, at the end of that, my Def Jam, very much so. I actually have a better story for you. So my last year at Def Jam, when I proposed this and it didn't work, I went over to sign with a group called Live Nation and made Roc Nation. But that was me as a businessman. As an artist, I still had one album left with Def Jam and Universal. And I went to Doug Morris and L.A. Reid, who was our chairman of Def Jam at the time. He did a great thing for me, he allowed me to walk in and have the conversation with Doug. And Doug, we had a fantastic relationship. So it was very cool. But I bought my last album back. And what people don't know about, is the day I--I had flew in from Hawaii, I was doing some recording, and I had an iPod in my pocket, and I was on a commercial flight coming from Hawaii to New York. And I had on jogging pants, and my iPod, with all the music that I recorded, was missing. It was on the plane somewhere. So I had to walk into the office the next day and buy an album back that might leak the next day. So every day I would wake up and check all the internet places and everywhere, and be like, for three months... But at the end of the day, it was worth it, just, I was heading in a different direction, and just that freedom, and it turned out to be a great decision for me. It was a great decision for the company, they got some money. And a great decision for me. Got a very successful album, The Blueprint 3, which had Empire State of Mind on it. Sold about 4mn singles itself, and...

Jay-Z：对，是在那件事的尾声，在我和 Def Jam 的阶段。其实我有个更好的故事。我的 Def Jam 最后一年，我提出的计划没成，于是我转而与一家叫 Live Nation 的公司签约，创建了 Roc Nation。不过那是作为商人身份的我。作为艺人，我在 Def Jam 和 Universal 还剩一张专辑的合约。我去找了 Doug Morris 和 L.A. Reid，当时 L.A. Reid 是我们 Def Jam 的主席。他为我做了一件很棒的事，允许我去和 Doug 面谈。而且我和 Doug 的关系非常好，所以沟通很顺利。最后我把自己的最后一张专辑买了回来。鲜为人知的是：那天我刚从 Hawaii 飞回，之前在录音，口袋里装着一台 iPod，我坐的是从 Hawaii 到 New York 的商业航班。我穿着运动裤，结果那台装着我所有录音的 iPod 不见了，应该是落在飞机上了。于是第二天我就得走进公司，把一张“可能明天就会在网上泄露”的专辑买回来。之后整整三个月，我每天醒来都要到处上网检查是否泄露……但最终这一切值得，因为我正朝着不同的方向前进，那种自由本身就值得。这对我来说是一个伟大的决定；对公司来说也是好决定，他们拿到了钱；对我而言更是如此——我发布了非常成功的专辑《The Blueprint 3》，里面有《Empire State of Mind》。这首单曲本身卖了大约400万……

Steve Forbes: Which someday may become the anthem for New York.

Steve Forbes：它某天可能会成为 New York 的“城市之歌”。

Jay-Z: Yeah... Actually, my first number one record was off--I mean, as a solo artist. I had number ones with collaborators. But my first number one across the board record came off that album, so it was like, really good time for me. And I think, and I believe in everything lining up. So I think it happened at that time for the right reason.

Jay-Z：是的……实际上，那也是我作为 solo artist 的第一首“全榜第一”的单曲。之前我和别人合作拿到过第一，但我个人第一首全面登顶的歌就出自那张专辑。所以对我来说是非常好的时刻。我相信“万事契合”的时机论——所以我觉得它在那个时间点发生，是有其正确原因的。

Steve Forbes: That leads to, you mentioned, things line up--luck. We all know hard work is essential, discipline is essential, staying power is essential. But there's that element there that you can't quantify but you know it's there. Warren, you've had some thoughts...

Steve Forbes：这就引出了你提到的“万事契合”——运气。我们都知道努力、纪律、韧性至关重要。但还有一种不可量化却确实存在的要素。Warren，你对此有何看法……

Warren Buffet: Well, there's a lot of luck. Just being born in the United States in 1930, the odds were like, 30 to 1 against me. I didn't have anything to do with picking the United States, as I emerged, and having decent genes for certain things. And in my own case, I was sort of wired for capital allocation, and being wired for capital allocation a couple of hundred years ago in Nebraska wouldn't have meant a thing. And even now, being born in various parts of the world, that wouldn't have meant much. But here I was, in this soon to be very rich, capitalistic system. And it just so happened that I did paid off enormously in a market system like we have. And if I'd had a talent in some other area that was way less commercial, I would have had a good time doing it, but it wouldn't have paid off like this. But of course, Jay said it perfectly when he talked about... he's in a recording for himself, and the money comes afterwards. I got to do what I love. And it doesn't get any luckier than that. If you can spend your lifetime, and I'm 80 now, doing things you love every single day... I would be doing what I do now and I would have done it in the past if the payoff had been in seashells or shark's teeth, or anything else. If you can go to work every morning, I tap dance to work, and I come down and I...  every day is exciting. So that is lucky. That didn't have to happen that way. If I had been born in 1930, if I'd been born a female, if I'd been born black, I would not have had the same opportunities that I had. It's just, it's chance. My parents love my sisters just as much as they love me, my sisters are just as smart, or smarter than I am, and all of that, but they didn't have the same expectations in the 30s for young, smart girls or for a young smart guy. And so I've had all kinds of luck. I had the luck of... I got turned down by Harvard. Well, getting turned down by Harvard, then I got to study under Ben Graham at Columbia, which changed my life. All kinds of things have worked out. I just hope I stay lucky. I've been lucky for 80 years.

Warren Buffet：嗯，运气很多。比如1930年出生在 United States，这个概率大概是对我不利的30比1。我并没有“选择”出生在 United States，也没选择某些方面还不错的基因。就我个人而言，我天生适合做资本配置；可如果两三百年前我在 Nebraska 拥有这种能力，毫无意义。即使在今天，出生在世界上其他很多地方，这种能力也可能意义不大。但我恰好处在即将变得极其富裕的资本主义体系里。恰好在我们这样的市场环境中，这种能力带来了巨大的回报。如果我在另一个商业性较弱的领域有天赋，我也会乐在其中，但回报不会像现在这样。当然，Jay 说得很到位：他先为自己录音，钱是后来才来。我也一直在做我热爱的事。没有比这更幸运的了。如果你能一辈子——我现在80岁了——每天都做自己热爱的事……哪怕报酬是贝壳、鲨鱼牙，或者别的什么，我过去和现在都会做同样的事。若你每天早上都能“踢踏着走去上班”，每天都兴致勃勃——这就是幸运。这并不是必然会发生的事。若我1930年出生为女性，或者出生为黑人，我不会拥有同样的机会。这就是运气。我的父母爱我姐妹和爱我一样多，我的姐妹和我一样聪明、甚至更聪明，但在30年代，人们对“聪明女孩”的期待和对“聪明男孩”的期待并不相同。所以我得到了各种好运。比如我曾被 Harvard 拒绝——而正因为此，我去了 Columbia 跟 Ben Graham 学习，这改变了我的人生。很多事情都恰好顺利。我只希望好运继续。我已经幸运了80年。

Steve Forbes: You... where you grew up, you could have easily ended up, as you've discussed with your friends who did something, and by golly, they were put away and didn't get the opportunity.

Steve Forbes：你那边的成长环境——你本来也很可能像你那些朋友一样，因为做了某些事被关起来，从此错过机会。

Jay-Z: Yeah, there are very few people from my neighborhood, in my environment, that make it out. Forget about being successful, but to make it out alive. Or to be incarcerated. I have a great friend who just came home, was one of the most beautiful people you ever meet. He just came home from doing 13 years, and we were... we were together every single day. And had it not been for music, and music taking me out at the right time, my life could very easily have been his. Very easily. We were together every single day.

Jay-Z：是的，我的社区、我的环境里，能“走出来”的人很少。别说成功了，能活着走出来就不容易；否则就是被关起来。我有个很要好的朋友，刚刚回到家——他是你能遇见的最美好的人之一。他刚服完13年牢。我和他几乎每天都在一起。若不是音乐——而且在恰当的时机把我带离了那个环境——我的人生很可能就会是他的轨迹。非常可能。我们以前真的是每天在一起。

Steve Forbes: You mentioned the story about London.

Steve Forbes：你提到过一个关于 London 的故事。

Jay-Z: Yeah. So we were into different things. We were into a lot of street things. And just so happened I had a talent to make music. And a guy by the name of Jazz who I started out with really early, he got the opportunity, got to deal with EMI, he had the opportunity to go to London to record his album. And I went along with him and we were away for two months. Well in that two months, there was a sting operation. And my friend I'm talking about, they took him away for 13 years. And the only reason I wasn't there because I was away, doing this music stuff.

Jay-Z：对。我们那时在做各种事，很多“街头”的事。只是我恰好有做音乐的才能。很早就和我一起起步的一个人，叫 Jazz，他拿到了一个机会，与 EMI 签了合约，有机会去 London 录专辑。我跟他一起去，离开了两个月。结果就在这两个月，那里展开了一次突击行动。我说的那位朋友被带走，服了13年刑。而我之所以不在场，唯一的原因就是我刚好外出做音乐。

Steve Forbes: Amazing. Business models. Where we've touched on it, that just because you've done something right before with a music business, they're accustomed to doing things a certain way. World changes, they can't adjust. Warren, what advice do you have? You've seen it in the newspaper business. You made your name. Washington Post, Buffalo News. Legalized monopoly. 30 IQ, you could put them in those businesses and they'd succeed. And then now, now they're all crashing.

Steve Forbes：太神奇了。说到商业模式——我们已经提过一点：哪怕你过去在音乐行业做对了事，但他们习惯于某种做事方式。世界变了，他们却调不过来。Warren，你有什么建议？你见证过报业的变迁。你靠它打下名声：Washington Post、Buffalo News。那时几乎是“合法垄断”。就算智商30的人，你把他放进去也能成功。而现在，它们几乎都在崩塌。

Warren Buffet: It happens. Street railways were big here in Omaha 100 years ago. But I will say this about investing: everything you do learn is cumulative. That doesn't mean that industries stay good forever, or businesses stay good forever. But learning to think about business models--what I learned at 20 is useful to me now, what I learned at 25 is useful to me now. It's not a field that changes dramatically in terms of the underlying principles. It's like physics. There's underlying principles--now, they're doing all kinds of things with physics they weren't doing 50 years ago, but if you have the principles, if you know what makes a good business, if you know what makes a good manager, if you know what makes a good product--and you learn that in one business, there is some transference to other businesses if you go along. And you learn what things you're not going to understand. Knowing what to leave out is just as important as knowing what to focus on. And I don't think I can win every game. Somebody said, How do you beat Bobby Fischer? You play any game except chess. So I don't play Bobby Fischer chess. There's a lot of value to learning that over time and learning what you're good at and what you're not good at.

Warren Buffet：这种事会发生。100年前，街车在 Omaha 可是大产业。不过我想说的是：在投资上，你学到的一切都是“累积”的。这并不意味着行业会永远好、企业会永远好，但学会以“商业模式”来思考——我20岁学到的东西现在依然有用，25岁学到的现在也仍有用。这个领域的底层原理并不会剧烈变化。它有点像物理学：有底层原理——今天物理能做的事情，比50年前多太多了，但只要你掌握“原则”、知道什么是好生意、什么是好管理者、什么是好产品——你在某个行业学到的这些，会在走向其他行业时“迁移”。同时你要学会哪些事是你不会懂的。“知道该舍弃什么”，和“知道该专注什么”同样重要。我不认为自己能赢下每一场比赛。有人说，怎么打败 Bobby Fischer？答案是：除了国际象棋，玩任何别的游戏。所以我不和 Bobby Fischer 下棋。随着时间推移，学会哪些是你擅长的、哪些不是，这非常有价值。

Steve Forbes: And, Jay, your businesses, like the newspaper business, you yourself have said that record companies are anachronistic, that they lost it, they lost it with Napster. Explain how they did and what you learned from it, and how you thinking go forward and survive in an environment where what had been true for decades is no longer true.

Steve Forbes：Jay，就像报业一样，你自己也说过唱片公司“跟不上时代”，从 Napster 开始就失了阵脚。说说他们是怎么失去的、你从中学到了什么、以及在一个几十年真理不再成立的新环境里，你如何思考未来与生存。

Jay-Z: Yeah, I think that's a big thing about a business is recognizing change. The variables are not the same. There's a big thing called the internet. So it changes the landscape for everything. I think the consumption of music is at an all time high. But as we see, the music business is down. So something has to be done there. It was a time in music where a hit solved everything. You just had a hit, it didn't matter what was going on. Get a hit and it solved everyone's problem. That's no longer true. Not today. And I think, just having that mentality for so long, I think the music business is still stuck in that place because we haven't figured it out.

Jay-Z：是的，我认为做生意的一件大事就是识别“变化”。变量已经不同了——有个叫“互联网”的大事，它改变了一切的格局。我认为音乐“消费量”处于历史高位，但我们也看到“音乐产业”在下滑，所以这当中需要做点什么。曾经有段时间，一首“hit”能解决一切：只要有爆款，别的都不重要——人人问题都解决了。如今不再如此。我觉得因为这种心态持续太久，音乐产业还困在老位置，因为我们还没想明白新路子。

Steve Forbes: Napster--they made a huge mistake on Napster.

Steve Forbes：Napster——他们在 Napster 上犯了大错。

Jay-Z: Yeah, well Napster came along, and it was this file sharing thing, and at the time, we had the opportunity to embrace it. And this way you can control it. It was one place. But when you stop Napster and we shut down Napster, just the arrogance that we had, it made a million Napsters. Now it's impossible to control. Just, that sort of thinking. I think in business, one of the biggest thing is to open yourself up for change. You don't have to change who you are and how you operate, but just, if the landscape has changed, then the way we do business has to change, somewhat. We don't have to change who we are, we have to change the way we go about it. Because like I said, the consumption of music is higher than ever.

Jay-Z：对。Napster 出现时，它是“文件共享”。当时我们本有机会“拥抱它”——你可以在一个中心“管控”它。可我们却去封杀 Napster，这种“傲慢”的做法，带来了“一百万个 Napster”。如今根本无从控制。就是这种思路的问题。我认为做生意的一大关键是对“变化”保持开放。你不必改变“你是谁”和“你的原则”，但当“地貌”变了，我们做生意的“路径”就得有所改变。我们不必改变自我，但必须改变“做法”。毕竟，如我所说，音乐消费比以往任何时候都高。

Steve Forbes: You've done it in your own music. As you've gotten older, you've brought audiences with you and others have not. What are you doing in terms of the model that's been shattered in music? You mentioned when you left the record label company, you saw you had to do certain things. How are you recreating a model that can work in the future?

Steve Forbes：你在音乐里已经这么做了。随着年龄增长，你把听众带着一起成长，而很多人做不到。面对被打碎的旧模式，你具体做了什么？你说过离开唱片公司后必须去做一些事——你如何重建一个未来可行的模型？

Jay-Z: Well, for one, we've taken our time with artists and artist development. For two, there's just so many different parts of the business that we're in. For a long time, music wasn't into touring. Now they're making up these 360... I don't want this to be like a record company bashing...

Jay-Z：首先，我们花时间在“艺人和艺人培养”上。其次，我们涉足业务的环节非常多。很长一段时间，音乐产业并不真正参与“巡演”。现在他们搞出所谓“360 模式”……我不想把这说成在批评唱片公司……

Warren Buffet: You can do it now. You couldn't have done it 20 years ago.

Warren Buffet：你现在能这么做，20年前可做不到。

Jay-Z: Now they're doing this whole 360 model and it's like, you don't... that's not what the record company does. The record company is not in the touring business, so why would an artist sign a rights to you when that's not what you do, that's not your area of expertise. But we were the biggest concept promoter there, so there's... we're into publishing... there's just so many different aspects of music we're in. We're into more of it now and we're getting better at it. Just--to open up different avenues, make ourselves successful.

Jay-Z：如今他们推“360 模式”，可问题在于——那本来不是唱片公司该做的。唱片公司并不擅长巡演业务，那为什么艺人要把这部分权利签给你呢？这不是你们的专长。但我们在演唱会推广上本来就是最大的一批玩家，同时我们也做出版……我们真正涉足了音乐生态的方方面面。如今我们涉猎更广、也在不断精进。核心就是——打开多条赛道，让我们自己取得成功。

Steve Forbes: Touring, clothing...

Steve Forbes：巡演、服装……

Jay-Z: Movies, publishing, just...

Jay-Z：电影、出版，还有……

Warren Buffet: I don't want to compete with him. I'm not interested.

Warren Buffet：我可不想跟他竞争——我没兴趣。

Steve Forbes: But then on the tours, you were wise enough, or big enough, or something, where you don't mind sharing billing with Eminem or Bono?

Steve Forbes：但在巡演上，你足够明智、足够大度，或者别的什么，总之你不介意和 Eminem 或 Bono 并列压轴？

Jay-Z: Yeah. It's fun for me, for one. And for two, like we were saying in the [inaudible], one plus one is three for me. I don't have that ego where I have to be the only guy on the field or the only one that people look at. I'm cool with going out with other artists. I've been doing in my entire career. Before Eminem, before Bono, it was R Kelly or 50 Cent, or DMX. I've been doing in my entire career, I just believe that giving people a better package, that when they leave the concert, they want to come back again. You can get them there the first time. If what you're putting on is not incredible, and impactful, then why would they come back the second time? I think that's--a lot of people make that mistake. When they're hot, at the moment, they just sell them, they sell off the name, and sell off the moment. Yeah, the shiny things. You fall in love with shiny things. You sell off the moment, and then when people come to the concert, they don't have the experience. Well, we're over-delivering on experience. You're not only getting Eminem, you're getting Eminem and Jay Z, You're not only get Bono, you're getting Bono and Jay Z. You can't help but leave that concert with, almost like a once in a lifetime experience, every single time. That's what I'm trying to create.

Jay-Z：对。首先这对我来说很有趣。其次，就像我们在[听不清]里说的，对我来说 1+1=3。我没有那种非得“场上只有我一个人”、或“大家只能看我”的自负。我很乐意和别的艺人同台。我整个职业生涯都这么做。在 Eminem、Bono 之前，是 R Kelly、50 Cent 或 DMX。我一直这么做，因为我相信要给观众一个更好的“套餐”——让他们离开演唱会时就想再来一次。你可以第一次把他们吸引到场馆，但如果你呈现的不是“惊艳且有冲击力”的东西，他们为什么第二次还来？我觉得很多人就犯在这上面：当他们当红时，就开始“卖名气、卖当下”。对，闪亮的东西。你会爱上那些闪亮的东西，你把“当下”卖掉了，等观众来到演唱会，却没有体验。我们恰恰是在“过度交付体验”。你不只是看到 Eminem，而是 Eminem 加上 Jay Z；你不只是看到 Bono，而是 Bono 加上 Jay Z。每一次你走出场馆，都很难不觉得像是经历了一次“一生仅此一次”的体验。这就是我努力要创造的。

Steve Forbes: So Warren, you said you wouldn't want to compete against Jay. What advice would you...

Steve Forbes：所以 Warren，你说你不想和 Jay 竞争。那你会给他什么建议……

Jay-Z: He's superduper joking.

Jay-Z：他是在非常非常开玩笑。

Steve Forbes: What advice would you have for a man who has succeeded in a business where It's often short-lived, being convulsed? How do you--you like businesses where you say there's a moat, where the competitors can't get you. What advice would you give Jay on building moats?

Steve Forbes：你会给一位在高度瞬息万变、常常“短命”的行业里取得成功的人什么建议？你喜欢那种有“moat”的生意，竞争者打不进来。关于打造“moat”，你会给 Jay 什么建议？

Warren Buffet: Well, he's building moats all the time, obviously, that's why he's succeeding, even though he's moved beyond the age that you'd normally associate this field with. The best moat you can have is your own talent. They can't take it away from you, inflation can't take it from you, taxes can't take it from you. So when I talk to students, I see these students and I tell them: You're a million dollar asset. I would pay you $100,000 to the MBAs for 10% of your earnings for the rest of your life. So that makes you a million dollar asset. Now, if you could do something to increase that value 50%, if you can learn to communicate better verbally or in written form, and you become 50% more--that's $500,000 just by improving yourself. Nobody can take that away from you. And so I urge everybody when... I talk to them in high school about this, and colleges. Just, develop the habits--you've got the brainpower, you got the energy, but develop the habits of success. Look around you, at the people that you admire. List what makes you admire them compared to somebody else that looks equally strong or equally talented. Those are things that you can do. Just write them down. People like people that are--they like them if they're humorous and they're friendly, if they give credit to the other fellow. They don't like them if they're stingy or they overstate and over-promise and all those sorts of things. Well, that's a decision you make, so I encourage everybody to build your own moat around yourself.

Warren Buffet：嗯，他显然一直在建“moat”，这正是他成功的原因之一，尽管他的年龄已经超过了人们对这个领域的传统刻板印象。最好的“moat”是你的天赋。没人能把它从你那里拿走，通胀拿不走，税也拿不走。所以我对学生说：你们是“百万美元资产”。我愿意付给 MBA 学生 100,000 美元，换取他们未来终身 10% 的收入——这就说明你是“百万资产”。现在，若你能把这个价值提高 50%，比如学会更好的口头或书面沟通，使自己提升 50%——光靠“自我提升”就等于多了 500,000 美元。没人能把这拿走。因此我在高中和大学里都劝他们：培养习惯——你有脑力、有精力，但要培养“成功的习惯”。环顾四周，看看你钦佩的人，把让你钦佩他们的特质列出来，与那些同样强大或同样有天赋的人作比较。这些都是你可以做到的——把它们写下来。人们喜欢那些幽默、友好、愿意给他人以荣誉的人；不喜欢吝啬、夸大其词、过度承诺的人。这些都是你可以选择的行为。所以我鼓励每个人都在自己身上构筑“护城河”。

Steve Forbes: Jay, you have any advice you want to give to Warren on building moats?

Steve Forbes：Jay，你有没有什么关于“moat”的建议想给 Warren？

Jay-Z: What am I say to this guy, man?

Jay-Z：这位大哥我还能说啥呢？

Warren Buffet: You do things I can't do, believe me. I can't do anything he does.

Warren Buffet：你能做的是我做不到的，相信我——他做的那些事我全不会。

Jay-Z: Brilliant thinker.

Jay-Z：杰出的思考者。

Steve Forbes: This then gets to what is money for? You've greatly succeeded, you haven't made the mistakes that others made to get a success and then you let destroy your discipline. In terms of... there are only so many steaks we can eat or hamburgers or whatever, the value added... we'll start with Warren, maybe to start this part of the conversation. The value added you always had was, you could employ capital, multiply it, which meant more businesses, more people for pensions, more hiring. That was a great service. That was doing a real public good. Yet a few years ago, you decided you were going to do something in addition to multiplying capital, which meant opportunity and a higher standard of living.

Steve Forbes：接下来谈谈“钱是用来做什么的”。你们都取得了巨大成功，也没犯那种“一成功就毁掉自律”的错误。就“价值增量”而言……牛排、汉堡我们能吃的有限；而你的“价值增量”，Warren，一直在于你能运用资本、让它倍增——这意味着更多企业、更多养老金受益者、更多就业。这是一种伟大的“服务”，是真正的公共善。但几年前，你决定在“让资本倍增”之外再做点别的事情——意味着机会与更高的生活水准。

Warren Buffet: If you go back, really when I was in my 20s--it sounds obnoxious, but I really did know I was going to become rich. Because I just, I'd learned something that was going to work. And my wife and I decided then--she was 100% on board, my first wife, on this. We were going to enjoy life, we were going to have everything we'd possibly use or need. But incidentally, I think a $5 dinner in many cases is better than $100 dinner. I think...

Warren Buffet：如果回到我二十多岁——这听起来有点自负，但我确实知道自己会变得富有，因为我学到了一套“注定有效”的东西。那时我和妻子——我的第一任妻子，她百分之百赞同——就决定，我们要享受生活，拥有我们可能用得上或需要的一切。不过顺带说一句，我常常觉得 5 美元的一顿饭比 100 美元的一顿饭更好。我觉得……

Steve Forbes: Same with wine, too.

Steve Forbes：酒也是一样。

Warren Buffet: Yeah, cost of living and standard of living are not necessarily the same. But, I thought I would compound money at a rate well above average. And we decided we'd live well. We never denied ourselves anything. It meant independence, so I could do what I wanted to do. And then, I felt, one way or another, it would go back to society. Now, I thought my wife would outlive me. She was a little younger, and women live longer than men. And she loved the actual process of seeing people with problems that money would help. And I loved the game I was in. So I thought we wouldn't, basically we'd pile it up and she would do the distribution of it. And she did a lot of it while she was alive, but the big money was going to be later on, and then she died while I was still alive. And then I had to make a decision as to the best way to get this money spent, in an intelligent way, relatively promptly. And I came up with the idea of splitting among five foundations, the largest of which is the Gates Foundation. That was four years ago. And I couldn't be more pleased with the decision. I haven't denied myself anything. I eat everything I want, I travel every place I want.

Warren Buffet：是的，cost of living 和 standard of living 并不必然相同。不过，我当时认为自己可以以远高于平均的复利率增长财富。我们决定把日子过好，从不亏待自己。这意味着独立，我可以做自己想做的事。然后我觉得，钱总会以某种方式回馈社会。起初我以为妻子会比我活得久——她年轻些，而且女性普遍比男性长寿。她热爱亲身去看那些金钱能够帮助到的困境与人们；而我热爱我所从事的“游戏”。所以我想，我们基本上会把钱累积起来，由她来分配。她在世时确实做了很多，但大笔的分配原本留待更晚的时候——结果她先我而去。那时我必须决定一种既聪明又相对及时的最优方式，把这笔钱花出去。我想到把钱分给五家基金会，最大的一家是 Gates Foundation。那是四年前的事。我对这个决定非常满意。我没有亏待自己，想吃什么就吃什么，想去哪儿就去哪儿。

Steve Forbes: Have you denied society something? That the capital, if you'd keep deploying it, might have done more good in more companies?

Steve Forbes：你是否因此“亏待了社会”？如果你继续配置资本，或许能在更多公司里发挥更大的作用？

Warren Buffet: Well, Berkshire is still around, I'm still running it.

Warren Buffet：嗯，Berkshire 还在，我也还在经营。

Jay-Z: Yeah, you're not doing so bad.

Jay-Z：对啊，你做得可不差。

Warren Buffet: I'm making it still for the charities, but I'm making for a lot of other people too. So I didn't have to give up anything. I didn't even... I didn't have to give up what I love doing every day. I didn't have to give up any material thing in the world. And my three children are each involved with a foundation which lets them put money behind their energies. I think it's really worked out wonderfully for me. It's been a perfect solution. When my wife was pregnant, I didn't think I was going to deliver a baby. If I get a toothache or something, I don't take out my own tooth. I turn it over--I follow Adam Smith's advice--I turn it over to a specialist. And there's no reason to think that because I'm good at making money, that I would be the best, necessarily, at distributing it. I want certain goals in terms of how its distributed, but I'm perfectly willing to turn it over to people who are going to spend their lives specializing in that. I want them to get it done promptly. And I want it to be in sync with the kind of things I want to support. But I don't think I have to do it myself.

Warren Buffet：我依然在为慈善“赚钱”，同时也在为很多其他人创造价值。所以我无需放弃任何东西。我甚至……不需要放弃我每天热爱的工作，也不必放弃世上的任何物质享受。我的三个孩子各自参与一间基金会，让他们能以资金支持他们投入的方向。我觉得这对我来说运作得非常好，是个完美解法。就像我妻子怀孕时，我不会想着自己去接生；牙疼时我也不会自己拔牙——我遵循 Adam Smith 的建议，交给专业人士。同理，没有理由因为我擅长赚钱，就必然认为我也最适合花钱分配。我对资金分配的目标有明确诉求，但我完全愿意把执行交给把一生投入在这件事上的专业人士。我希望他们“及时办成”，并且与我希望支持的领域保持一致。但我不认为必须由我亲自来做。

Steve Forbes: Now, in terms of that, many times, a foundation gets set up. And...

Steve Forbes：不过在实际操作中，很多时候，基金会设立之后，会……

Warren Buffet: Goes off in a different direction.

Warren Buffet：跑偏，朝着不同的方向去了。

Steve Forbes: And there's this thing called Parkinson's Law, that an organization becomes self-centered, in for itself, and forgets its purpose that it was created for.

Steve Forbes：还有所谓的 Parkinson's Law：组织会变得以自我为中心，为自身而存在，忘了最初的使命。

Warren Buffet: I see it all the time.

Warren Buffet：我经常见到这种情况。

Steve Forbes: You see it in business--that's why they go broke oftentimes. But in foundations, you see it. So you made a provision that that was not going to happen with your funds, and they had to be... those monies had to be deployed what, within 10 years?

Steve Forbes：商业里也是如此——这往往就是他们破产的原因之一。基金会也不例外。所以你设了条款，避免你的资金出现这种情况，要求这些钱必须在——多久之内花完？十年？

Warren Buffet: 10 years after my estate's completed. Yeah, and the money has to all be spent--it can't go to institutions which in turn put it in there endowment or anything like that. I want people that I know, and I know are in sync with me, and I know will be true to certain ideals. I want them to dispense it because who the hell knows, 50 years from now, when the place becomes some large institution, what will happen. People will rationalize then that what's good for the institution is exactly what old Warren thought 40 years ago on his deathbed. So I've seen that happen too often. And I... foundations are not tested by a market system. If you've got a business idea, and he's got music, it's being tested by a market system. People will make a decision was whether that next album is good, and they'll make a decision whether Coca Cola still keeps them happy, and all that sort of thing. A foundation has no market tests. So it's very easy, if there's not a market test, as people will find out in government and other places, it's very easy to start rationalizing things that are a long way from what you originally--people thought you were setting out to do.

Warren Buffet：在我的遗产清算完成后的10年内。对，而且这些钱必须全部花掉——不能给那些再把钱放进自己捐赠的机构。我希望把钱交给我认识、与我理念一致、忠于特定理想的人去使用。因为谁也不知道50年后，当某个机构变成庞然大物时会变成什么样。到那时人们会自圆其说，把“对机构有利”的事，解释成“老 Warren 在四十年前临终时的本意”。这种事我见得太多了。再者……基金会没有“市场检验”。你有商业点子，他有音乐作品——都会被市场检验。人们会用脚投票：下一张专辑好不好、Coca Cola 是否还能令他们满足，等等。而基金会没有市场检验。没有市场检验，就很容易——政府和其他领域的人也会发现——很容易开始把事情合理化，离最初的使命越来越远。

Steve Forbes: And you are, in terms of... you're just beginning looking at charities, and you have a very unusual one, scholarship fund, Shawn Carter Scholarship Fund. Describe it and where do you think you see it going?

Steve Forbes：Jay，就你而言……你刚开始看慈善，你还有一个很特别的项目：Shawn Carter Scholarship Fund。介绍一下它，以及你对它未来的设想？

Jay-Z: For me, the reason I focused on that, because such a small thing changed my life. A sixth grade teacher said, "You know what? You're kind of smart." And I believed her. I said, I'm smart. So she gave me that sort of opportunity, she sparked the idea in my mind. So that's why my first thing is the scholarship fund. Because there are a ton of very intelligent kids that's coming out of these urban areas who can make it all the way, if given the opportunity. So it's a challenge that I gave to my mom. And my mom is so involved with it. Like, she gets on the bus, and she takes these kids to interview with colleges. And now we're starting to see kids graduate from college. And that sort of feeling, when it's real, I'm not just sitting home writing a check, for whatever reason, to make myself feel good or anything like that. It's something that I really want to do and I'm really into and excited about. So...

Jay-Z：对我来说之所以聚焦这个，是因为一个很小的举动改变了我的人生。六年级时一位老师对我说：“你知道吗？你还挺聪明的。”而我选择相信她——我对自己说：我是聪明的。她给了我那样的“机会感”，在我心里点燃了火花。所以我的第一个慈善项目就是奖学金基金。因为在城市社区里有无数聪明的孩子，只要给他们机会，他们完全可以一路走下去。于是我把这个挑战交给了我母亲。她深度参与——她会亲自坐公交，带着这些孩子去各所大学面试。现在我们已经开始看到孩子们大学毕业了。那种真实发生的感觉让我很触动——我不是只是坐在家里写支票、为了让自己感觉良好之类的。这是我真正想做、真正投入且感到兴奋的事情。所以……

Steve Forbes: It's effective philanthropy, in other words.

Steve Forbes：换句话说，这是“有效慈善”。

Jay-Z: Right. Yeah. I'm seeing the results. I'm seeing--we're getting our first graduates from the Shawn Carter Scholarship Program, which is like, for me, the best thing ever.

Jay-Z：对，没错。我已经看到了结果。我们迎来了 Shawn Carter Scholarship Program 的第一届毕业生，对我来说，这简直是最棒的事情。

Steve Forbes: And this seems like a contradiction... when you think of commerce, it's meeting the needs and wants of others. You provide the music, people like it, you do well, they get the pleasure. Warren, investment returns, good companies. But yet, in philanthropy, you think about it as almost the opposite side of the same coin, meeting the needs and wants of others, a little different way of doing it. But again, as you say, it's not just writing a check, it's making sure it's actually delivering what it's supposed to deliver.

Steve Forbes：这看起来像是个矛盾……谈到商业，本质是满足他人的需求与欲望。你提供音乐，人们喜欢，你获得成功，他们得到愉悦。Warren 的投资回报、优质公司也是如此。而在慈善上，几乎是同一枚硬币的另一面：仍旧是满足他人的需求与愿望，只是方式不同。但正如你所说，不只是开支票，而是确保它真正交付原本要交付的结果。

Warren Buffet: It's tougher than business too, because you're looking for easy things to do in business. You're looking at... people have liked drinking Coca Cola for 100 years, they'll probably like it for another 100 years. It doesn't require any great brainpower to figure that kind of thing out. But in philanthropy, often you're tackling the tougher problems of society, you're tackling things where people have applied money and intelligence before and haven't really solved the problem. Education is a great example. So you're really taking on things where you're not going to succeed every time. And if you like succeeding every time, you have to adjust to that. If you succeed 100% of the time in philanthropy, the projects are too easy. You've got to look for things that are important and where you may fail. Right now, Gates is working on polio eradication; they've gotten 99% of the way there, but the last 1% is very tough, and nobody knows for sure whether that will get done. We did it with smallpox in the past. So it's a different mindset. And you don't get that same feedback you get in business either, immediately.

Warren Buffet：慈善比商业更难。做生意时你会找“容易做”的事：比如人们已经喜欢喝 Coca Cola 一百年了，很可能再喜欢一百年——判断这种事不需要多高的智力。但慈善往往直面社会最棘手的问题——那些之前投入过金钱与智慧却仍未解决的问题，教育就是典型例子。所以你做的是不可能每次都成功的事；如果你喜欢每次都成功，就要调整预期。若在慈善里你能做到 100% 成功，说明你挑的项目太容易了。你必须寻找重要但可能会失败的事。现在 Gates 正在推进脊髓灰质炎根除，已经走到 99%，但最后 1% 极其艰难，没人能保证一定完成。天花当年我们做到了。慈善需要不同的心态，而且它没有像商业那样的即时反馈。

Steve Forbes: That gets also to a universal thing: learning from mistakes. One of the things you do in your annual report, which has become a classic, is you will discuss what went wrong, like Dexter, and what you... and what you learn from it. Tough to do.

Steve Forbes：这也引出一个普遍命题：从错误中学习。你的年报里有个“经典做法”，就是会讨论哪里出了问题，比如 Dexter，以及你从中学到了什么。这很难做到。

Warren Buffet: Well, it's very important to recognize mistakes. If somebody goes around and says, "I never made a mistake," you quit listening to him. You're in a dream world. So, facing up to it, it's a little like, in terms of discussing issues, you should be able to discuss the other fellow's position just as well as you can discuss your own. That's part of thinking well, and certainly part of making good decisions in business is recognizing the poor decisions you've made and why they were poor. That doesn't mean you never do the same thing, because sometimes it was a freak situation. But I have made lots of mistakes. I'm gonna make more mistakes. But Babe Ruth struck out a lot of times... it's the name of the game that you do it. You don't want to expect perfection in yourself. You want to strive to do your best. But it's too demanding to expect perfection in yourself. And it does some good to recognize them and not start trying to go around kidding people about them.

Warren Buffet：承认错误极其重要。若谁四处宣称“我从不犯错”，你就别听他了——那是做梦。直面错误还有一层含义：在讨论问题时，你应该能像表述自己观点那样，准确表述对方的立场。这是“会思考”的一部分。做出良好商业决策的一部分，就是承认你做过的糟糕决定，并理解它为什么糟糕。这不意味着你永远不会重蹈覆辙，因为有时只是偶发情境。我犯过很多错，也还会犯错。但 Babe Ruth 也被三振很多次——这就是比赛的一部分。不要苛求完美，应当追求尽力而为，但指望自己“完美无缺”要求过高。承认错误、而不是绕着掩饰它，是有益的。

Steve Forbes: Getting the message out: you've done a very high profile thing to get the message out on giving. Why? And where do you think it's gonna lead? And then I want to ask Jay: very different audience. How do you get the message out on the importance of philanthropy, on helping people so they can have the opportunities you had?

Steve Forbes：传播理念：你在“公益捐赠”上做了非常高调的倡议。为什么？你认为它会走向何处？接下来我也想问 Jay：面对完全不同的受众，如何把“慈善的重要性”、帮助他人获得与你相似机会的信息传递出去？

Warren Buffet: Well, the way I got the message out was to get a copy of Forbes and look down that 400 list and start making phone calls.

Warren Buffet：我传播理念的方式很简单：拿一本 Forbes，顺着 400 大富豪名单往下看，然后开始打电话。

Steve Forbes: Thank you.

Steve Forbes：谢谢你。

Warren Buffet: Bill Gates and Melinda did the same thing, and we've only called 80 or so people so far, some of them I know, some of them I don't know. And amaz--we've gotten way better reception. To some extent, we hydrated the mind, as they say in the mining business. So we picked people, in many cases, but not all cases, where we knew that they had pretty strong philanthropic interests. But it was very low key, and we just asked them if they would sign a pledge, not legal, but moral, that they would give away at least half of their net worth, either during their lifetimes or death. And about half of the people that we call, maybe slightly over half, have said they'd be delighted. And we've asked them to tell their own story. And the stories are fascinating. How people got to that decision, how they evolved, how their family was involved in it, how maybe personal experiences had shaped that, but it was really very encouraging. I don't think you'd find that in any other society in the world other than the United States. And we'll see how far it goes, but--it will go further--but even if it only went as far as it's gone, it will have an impact.

Warren Buffet：Bill Gates 和 Melinda 也在做同样的事。截至目前我们大概只打了 80 个左右的电话，有些是我认识的人，有些并不认识。令人惊讶的是——反馈远好于预期。从采矿业的说法看，我们算是“预湿了矿层”。很多情况下（但并非全部）我们会挑选那些我们知道有强烈慈善兴趣的人。方式非常低调，我们只是问他们是否愿意签一份非法律、而是道义层面的承诺：在有生之年或去世时，至少捐出 50% 的净资产。大约一半，甚至略多于一半的被联系者表示很乐意。我们还请他们讲自己的故事。这些故事非常吸引人：他们如何做出决定、如何转变、家人如何参与、个人经历如何塑造选择——非常令人鼓舞。我认为除了 United States，你在世界其他社会很难看到这种现象。至于最终会走多远——它会继续推进——但即便只达到目前这一步，也会产生影响。

Steve Forbes: So you think that even those who were giving are now, in effect, in their minds, upping it?

Steve Forbes：所以你认为，哪怕原本就在捐赠的人，现在心里也在“提高比例”？

Warren Buffet: I think, certainly in some cases, I know that's the case. And the very fact of getting involved and spending more time thinking about it, talking with your family more about it, I don't think it ever leads to reduced giving. And I think sometimes--well, I've seen examples of it here, it's led to more. The real interesting thing will be as if it leads to smarter giving over time. We hope to get this group together once a year and talk about, again, mistakes. But then...

Warren Buffet：我认为在某些案例里——我确定如此。仅仅是更深入参与、花更多时间思考、与家人更多交流，我不认为会导致“捐得更少”。相反——我见过例子——常常捐得更多。更有意思的是，随着时间推移，它是否会带来“更聪明的捐赠”。我们希望每年把这群人聚在一起，再次讨论“错误”。接着……

Steve Forbes: Do you see the same kind of entrepreneurship we see in commerce, in philanthropy? There are a handful of large organizations, and except for Habitat for Humanity and a couple of others, they've been around for decades.

Steve Forbes：在慈善领域，你是否看到像商业里那样的“创业精神”？现在有少数大型组织，除了 Habitat for Humanity 和少数几家，大多已经存在数十年了。

Warren Buffet: Yeah. There's some. It's harder to evaluate. It's not a market system. You can't put out a P&L at the end of the year. And you can't measure things--I don't believe in measuring quarterly results in business, but the timetable on many things is much longer in philanthropy. So it's not as easy a game, to me, as business. But it's an important game. And the fact that you can't do it perfectly does not mean that you should sit on the sidelines and it does not mean you can't learn from others. I will--I've already learned something from the three or four dinners we've had in talking to people. But the stories are interesting. People do things that are amazingly effective, they do things where they bomb for one reason or another. But we will have smarter philanthropy in this country 10 or 20 years from now, I think, than we have now. And I think, in a small way, this will contribute to it. So keep publishing the list so I can milk it.

Warren Buffet：是的，有一些。但更难评估。慈善不是一个市场体系。你年底拿不出一张 P&L 来衡量。我本来也不赞成企业按季度考核业绩，而在慈善上，很多事情的时间表更长。所以对我而言，这不是像做生意那样“容易的游戏”。但它很重要。做不到完美，并不意味着你该在场边观望，也不意味着你不能向他人学习。到目前为止，和大家吃了三四次饭、交流下来，我已经学到一些东西了。而且这些故事很有意思：有人做的事出奇有效，也有人因为这样或那样的原因“炸了锅”。但我相信在这个国家，10到20年后，我们会比现在有更“聪明的慈善”。我也认为，我们做的这点小事会对之有所助益。所以你们继续把这份榜单发下去，好让我借力。

Steve Forbes: Jay will soon be on it. But, Jay, in terms of philanthropy, obviously, you're very much focused on your business right now, as Warren was on his for a long time. But how do you get the message out to a different audience that it doesn't have to even be dollars, it's time and what you teach to taking you and showing you another world, or your mother, getting you emotionally, with your father, in a way in which you could move forward in your life and improve your life?

Steve Forbes：Jay 很快也会登上那张榜单。不过，就慈善而言，你现在显然主要精力还在事业上，就像 Warren 多年所做的那样。但你如何把信息传递给不同的受众——慈善不一定非得是钱，也可以是时间、是“教与育”，是带着别人去看一个更广阔的世界；就像你母亲、你父亲曾给予你的那种情感与指引，帮助你的人生向前、得到改善？

Jay-Z: Yeah, I think the first step for us, because, as far as entertainers, we're like the first generation to really capitalize off our talent. For many years, artists, they were dying broke because the record company took advantage of them in some way, form, or shape. This is like, that, really, first generation--we'll be fine, we're not talking about the rock stars, like Bono. So the first thing, for us, for me, I believe, is to lead by example. And show how these things have an effect on people's lives in a real way. And to tell that story of: this is the neighborhood that made me. And I know there's a future generation of stars in his neighborhood as well, that we must help out as well, if given an opportunity. What someone can be if given the opportunity. So my first thing is to show by example. And then I'm gonna slowly pull a guy like, me and Puff made--I think we could have done more, I think we could have visited and been there, closer, but we've made a huge pledge to Katrina, together. When we did that United Front, and we made a donation together, it showed hip hop, that sort of power, how we can get together and do these sorts of things. So again, my first thing is to do it by example and show how it works and show the example of how opportunity changed people's lives. And we'll move forward from there.

Jay-Z：是的，我觉得第一步——对我们这代艺人来说——在于“以身作则”。就娱乐圈而言，我们几乎是第一代真正能把天赋转化为资本的人。很多年里，艺人们往往“穷得去世”，因为唱片公司以各种方式占了便宜。我们这代——不谈像 Bono 那样的摇滚巨星——总体会好得多。所以第一件事，对我、对我们来说，就是以身作则，真实展示这些事情如何影响他人的生活；讲清“这个社区成就了我”的故事。我也知道，同一个社区里还有下一代的明星，只要给他们机会，我们也必须去帮他们——机会能把一个人变成什么样。于是我的首要任务就是“做给大家看”。然后我会慢慢把更多人拉进来。比如我和 Puff 当年——我觉得我们本可以做得更多，本可以更多到现场、去陪伴——但我们确实在 Katrina 灾后一起做出了很大的捐赠。那次“联合行动”表明了 hip hop 的力量：我们可以团结起来做成这些事。所以，再说一遍，我的第一步是“用行动示范”，展示它如何运作，展示“机会如何改变了人的一生”的样板。之后我们再往前推进。

Steve Forbes: Looking both forward and backwards, when you think of certain people in the past, like philanthropy, Andrew Carnegie, big steelman, first billionaire, but great public works, libraries. Warren, 50-100 years from now, when people say Warren Buffett, what words... handful of words, do you want to have come to mind?

Steve Forbes：放眼前后看历史人物——比如慈善上的 Andrew Carnegie，钢铁巨擘、第一位“亿万富翁”，却也留下了宏伟的公益与图书馆。Warren，50到100年后，人们提到“Warren Buffett”，你希望他们首先想到哪些词？

Warren Buffet: They'll probably say Berkshire Hathaway. I hope it's still around and doing very well, too. If it isn't, I'll come back and haunt them. No, what I've done has not been very complicated. I've followed somebody else's teachings. But what I really hope, if you could pick one word, it would be teacher. I got an enormous amount... Jay has talked about his sixth grade teacher... I think almost anyone that's been successful has had a teacher, maybe not a formal teacher, it can be a parent, obviously, but somebody's had a teacher that's affected him. And if you can pass that along, I think that's better than money, actually.

Warren Buffet：大概会说 Berkshire Hathaway。我也希望那时它依然存在、而且蒸蒸日上；不然的话，我可要“回来找他们算账”了。（笑）说真的，我做的事并不复杂，不过是遵循了前人的教诲。但如果只能选一个词，我希望是“teacher”。我从老师那里收获巨大……Jay 也提到过他的六年级老师。我觉得几乎所有成功的人都曾有“老师”——未必是学校里的老师，也可能是父母，但总会有人在“教”。如果你能把这种影响传下去，我认为那比金钱更珍贵。

Steve Forbes: Jay?

Steve Forbes：Jay？

Jay-Z: Oh. Man.

Jay-Z：哦，伙计……

Steve Forbes: Because in some senses, you're a pioneer.

Steve Forbes：因为在某种意义上，你是一个开拓者。

Jay-Z: Yeah. I think a lot is--I hope to inspire, like, I guess Obama took this thing already. But, just the hope of how far we can make it and the hope of, if you really apply yourself and stay true to who you are, how far you can come from where you come from. Because, my sort of success, where I'm from, it's like, there's...

Jay-Z：是的。我更多希望“启发他人”——嗯，可能 Obama 已经把“希望”这个词用走了。但就是那种“我们能走多远”的希望；如果你真心投入、忠于自我，从你的出身之地，你能走多远。因为，以我这种成功而言，在我来自的地方，这里有……

Warren Buffet: Jay is teaching all the time. He's teaching a lot bigger classroom than I'll ever teach in. And it's important. They're gonna learn from somebody, a young person growing up, and he's a guy to learn from.

Warren Buffet：Jay 一直都在“教”。他的“课堂”比我这辈子能触达的要大得多。这很重要。年轻人总会向某个人学习——而他就是值得学的那个人。

Jay-Z: So, just the hope. Hope.

Jay-Z：所以，就是“希望”。希望。

Steve Forbes: I think that's crucial, especially as people begin to recognize, yes, you're a fantastic artist. But unlike artists of the past, you also knew how to take control of your destiny by learning about business, learning about distribution, all the innards of production, so that you weren't going to lose what you created.

Steve Forbes：我认为这至关重要——尤其当人们开始认识到：没错，你是出色的艺术家，但不同于过往的一些艺术家，你还懂得通过学习商业、学习发行与生产体系的内部机制，来掌控自己的命运，从而不至于丢失你创造的价值。

Jay-Z: Right. Right.

Jay-Z：对，没错。

Steve Forbes: Well, thank you.

Steve Forbes：好的，非常感谢。

Warren Buffet: Thank you.

Warren Buffet：谢谢。

Jay-Z: Thank you.

Jay-Z：谢谢。