CHARLIE MUNGER INTERVIEW

查理·芒格访谈

BECOMING WARREN BUFFETT

成为沃伦·巴菲特

KUNHARDT FILM FOUNDATION

库哈特电影基金会

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

June 9, 2016

2016年6月9日

Interviewed by: Doug Blush

采访者：道格·布拉什

Total Running Time: 35 Minutes

总时长：35分钟

标题 与沃伦·巴菲特相遇

18:42:09:20

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

When I went back in 1959, to wind up my father’s law practice, mu-mutual friends introduced us. My father was a sole practitioner, and um someone had to go sit in his chair and wind up his practice, and it was during that period that I met Warren. When I first met Warren, I recognized immediately that he was a very intelligent person. And of course he was interested in the subject that I was also interested in, which was the process of being a successful investor. And so- and we, have similar senses of humor, and we had a high old time, probably ma-making ourselves obnoxious to the other people in the room. We both came from Omaha. We both worked in his—his grandfather’s grocery store, so we had a lot of common experience.

1959年我回去结束我父亲的律师事务所业务时，共同的朋友介绍了我们认识。我父亲是独立执业律师，嗯，得有人坐到他的位置上，结束他的业务，正是在那段时间我遇到了沃伦。我第一次见到沃伦时，立刻就意识到他是一个非常聪明的人。当然，他也对我同样感兴趣的领域感兴趣，那就是如何成为一名成功的投资者。所以——而且我们，有相似的幽默感，我们玩得很开心，可能让——让房间里的其他人觉得我们很讨厌。我们都来自奥马哈。我们都在他——他祖父的杂货店工作过，所以我们有很多共同的经历。

标题 沃伦思维的独特之处

18:44:06:01

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

Well there’s a big correlation between success in life and an early start, and Warren had a passion for doing well competitively, and getting money as a little tiny child, and he just kept it. And now you add a very high IQ, and a lot of energy and he got a flying start.

嗯，人生的成功与早起步之间有很大的关联，沃伦从小就对在竞争中取胜和赚钱充满热情，并且一直保持着这种热情。现在再加上非常高的智商、充沛的精力，他就有了一个飞速的开端。

标题 沃伦的投资哲学

18:45:01:04

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

Well he was an old Graham-Newman follower, and he made a lot of money buying thinly traded securities, who were incredibly cheap statistically. And with small amounts of money, which is what he’s working with, he can find enough of those to earn pretty high returns on capitol year, after year, after year. Now occasionally, the market would give him a big security to buy instead of an obscure –and the first one I remember of that kind was American Express, when the salad oil swindle pretty well clobbered that stock for a while. Warren went around, did a lot of research, and decided that it was a minor blip. The market was wrong and he was right. So he bought a big – A rated security and made a lot of money. But mostly, he was buying more obscure securities that were incredibly cheap.

他早年是格雷厄姆-纽曼学派的追随者，他靠买入那些成交量极低、但从统计数据来看非常便宜的股票赚了很多钱。当时他操作的是小资金，这种情况下，他能找到足够多的便宜股票，一年又一年地取得相当高的资本回报。当然，偶尔市场会给他机会买入一些“主流”证券，而不是冷门股——我记得第一个这种例子就是美国运通，在“沙拉油骗局”爆发时，那只股票被严重打压。沃伦到处调查研究，最后判断那不过是个小插曲，市场错了，他对了。于是他买入了一家评级为A的大公司股票，赚了很多钱。但大多数时候，他投资的还是那些极其便宜的冷门股票。

标题 在奥马哈工作

18:46:36:22

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

Well he always said it was less distracting to be there among all the rumors and action on, in Manhattan. And (pause) I would say he was making most of his money in a very solitary fashion, just by sifting a lot of data and thinking a lot. And he could do that as well in Omaha, as he could in Wall Street, in fact better.

他总说，不待在纽约那样充满传闻和喧嚣的地方，更能避免干扰。（停顿）我觉得他的钱大多是靠一种非常孤独的方式赚来的——就是大量筛选数据、反复思考。他在奥马哈完全可以做这些事情，甚至比待在华尔街还更合适。

标题 沃伦承受批评的能力

18:47:54:23

CHARLIE MUNGER

查理·芒格

I’ve never known anybody in my long life who liked criticism. Zero. So, I’m sure Warren didn’t like criticism. He taught a course on investments at the University of Omaha. And in that course, he criticized certain common practice in the over the counter securities market, where securities firm often met no lady in church and then sold her stock in a utility with a 5% mark up that was sort of hidden. And Warren thought, well that was dirty and cheating and inelegant, and of course, when he talked that way in his university course, some of the people who were doing it hated him, and so he got private criticism. People tried to keep him out of clubs and stuff like that

我活了这么久，从没见过谁真的喜欢被批评。零。所以我敢肯定，沃伦也不喜欢批评。他曾在奥马哈大学教投资课程，在课上他批评了场外证券市场的一些常见做法，比如某些证券公司在教堂遇到一位女士，就向她推销一只加价5%但隐藏得很巧妙的公用事业股票。沃伦觉得这种做法肮脏、欺骗、不体面。当然，当他在课堂上这么说时，那些干这事的人就恨上他了，于是他收到了很多私下的批评。还有人试图把他排除在一些俱乐部之外之类的。

标题 买入伯克希尔·哈撒韦

18:49:57:15  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格

If he bought it in his partnership, which he owned more of, he would have made a lot more money. And as it worked out, he made billions and billions of dollars for a bunch of people he didn’t even know. And, but I don’t think he—he can call it a mistake in that sense, but I don’t think he regrets it. It’s given him a public platform, it’s enabled him to in effect teach what he wants to teach. No, I, I think if you a—ordered him to live his life over, and say you can go back and buy National Indemnity in your partnership instead of Berkshire, I don’t think he’d do it. One of the reasons Warren’s successful is he’s brutal in appraising his own past. He wants to identify mis-thinkings and avoid them in the future. And in a narrow financial sense, that was mis-thinking. But I would say, in a big sense, that was fortunate mis-thinking because his life worked out better.  

如果他是在自己的合伙企业中买下伯克希尔，那他能赚得更多，因为他对那部分的持股比例更大。但实际结果是，他为一群甚至素未谋面的人创造了数十亿美元的财富。不过，我不认为他会把这称为错误，我也不觉得他后悔。这让他获得了一个公众平台，使他能够以某种方式传授他想要分享的理念。不，我认为如果你让他重新来过，并告诉他这次可以在合伙企业里买下National Indemnity而不是伯克希尔，我觉得他不会这么选。沃伦成功的原因之一就是他对自己的过去评估非常严苛，他总是试图识别错误的思维方式并避免再犯。从狭义的财务角度来看，那确实是一次判断失误。但从更大的层面来看，那是一次“幸运的错误”，因为他的生活因此变得更加精彩。

18:51:46:15  

We’re social animals, we’re supposed to help one another, and we can do it in various ways, and there’s nothing that helps people more than helping them get rid of a wrong idea and replacing it with a right one. You know it’s like God’s gift, and so—and, and since we’re trying to avoid sin and error, um, helping other people avoid it is—it’s a useful thing to do.  

我们是社会性动物，理应彼此帮助，有很多种方式可以做到这一点。而最有益的帮助，就是让别人摆脱错误的观念，转而接受正确的。这就像是上帝的恩赐。而既然我们都在努力避免犯错和作恶，那么帮助别人避免这些，也是一件很有意义的事。

18:52:30:22  

I think the sort of solid, middle-Western, unpretentious – background helped. I don’t think it would have helped if the Mungers and Buffetts had been at the exact pinnacle of Omaha society, and been going to the fancy balls and owning the local newspaper, the local bank, I think then we might have worked out differently. But w—what I call a solid upper class, upper/middle class background in Omaha I think helped us both.  

我觉得那种踏实、中西部、不张扬的出身对我们是有帮助的。如果芒格家和巴菲特家是奥马哈社会的顶层人物，整天参加豪华舞会，拥有当地报社和银行，那我们的命运可能会截然不同。但我所谓的奥马哈上层或上中层背景，是那种稳重而本分的出身，我认为这对我们俩都起到了积极作用。

标题 沃伦的父亲去世

18:55:10:16  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格

Well Warren was very close to his father, and (pause) of course he didn’t like it, and—but (pause) Warren soldiers on. I think it just sobered him and hurt him. But both Warren and I could look at our fathers and see what they did right and what they did wrong. Warren’s father was a strong ideologue, real old-fashioned right-wing ideologue, as was his grandfather. And his father was so intense about it that Warren just decided that it was a mistake that cabbaged up your head to be that much of an ideologue, so he loved his father but he didn’t want to become that much of a true believer in— in anything. And so he avoided it.  

沃伦和他父亲关系非常亲密，（停顿）他当然很难接受父亲的离世，（停顿）但沃伦坚持走了下去。我觉得那件事让他变得更加清醒，同时也让他很受伤。但我和沃伦都能看出我们的父亲做对了什么，又错在哪里。沃伦的父亲是个坚定的意识形态信徒，是那种老派的右翼保守派，他的祖父也是。他父亲对自己的理念执着到极致，这让沃伦最终决定——这种意识形态的极端信仰会让人的头脑变形。他爱他的父亲，但他不想成为那样的“真信徒”，所以他选择避开了那条路。

标题 伯克希尔哈撒韦的蓝图

18:59:20:21

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格

Well, he’d made so much money for so long doing what he’d been taught by Ben Graham, which was to buy these very cheap stocks, and if they were cheap enough he didn’t care if it was a lousy company and a lousy management. He knew he was gonna make money anyway just because of the cheapness. And – I always knew that would be self-limiting, that-that would only be available for a while and then would go away, and that it would be easier to make money by getting into the great businesses that either had a great manager or businesses where a fool could run it and still prosper. And-and so, I don’t think I did anything but maybe cause Warren to go where he was gonna go anyway a little faster. I-I don’t think I changed him, I think he would have been there anyway.  

他长期按照本·格雷厄姆教给他的方法去投资——买入那些极为廉价的股票，只要足够便宜，他就根本不在乎那家公司或管理层是否糟糕。他知道仅凭廉价本身就能赚钱。——我一直知道这种策略会有自我限制性，机会只会持续一段时间，随后就会消失，到时候再赚钱更容易的方法就是进入那些有优秀管理者的优秀企业，或是即便一个傻瓜来运营也能盈余的企业。因此，我觉得我所做的无非是让沃伦比他原本的进度稍微快一点。我不认为我改变了他，我相信他无论如何都会走到那里的。

19:00:24:15  

There was more potential for the long pole than getting in the good companies. We both wanted them cheap, but cheap good companies was the field that we shifted to. And of course that was really important when we started to buy whole companies.  

长期来看，比起买入好公司更有潜力的是买入股价更便宜的公司。我们都想要廉价投资，但我们转向了“廉价的好公司”这一领域。当然，这一点在我们开始收购整家公司时尤为重要。

标题 与沃伦相处

19:00:55:19

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格

We never had an argument. We just (pause) we just kind of roll with it easily. We never had a fight. But, suppose Warren doesn’t want to do something that I would have done, and suppose that happens four times over forty years or something, what the hell difference does it make to me? Why should I fuss over that? And also suppose one of us makes a mistake that the other wouldn’t have made, and that happens four or five times, why should anybody care? Net, the record is working out fine. Yeah, we – we believe you-you should go at life with a certain amount of equanimity and-and rationality.  

我们从未有过争吵。我们只是（停顿）很随性地继续前行，从未真正“打过架”。但假设沃伦不愿意做一些我会做的事，而且这种情况在四十年里发生了四次，那么对我来说又有什么大不了的？我为什么要为此纠结？再假设我们中的某一人犯了另一个人不会犯的错，发生四五次，那又有谁会在意？总体来看，我们的合作成果很好。是的，我们认为人生应该保持一定的平静和理性。

19:02:30:22  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

He made millions and millions of dollars value investing in lousy companies that he bought very cheaply. Besides, it’s unpleasant to watch lousy companies you don’t like. It’s much more fun to watch somebody you like and admire succeeding than watching some jerk kind of half mis-manage some company that’s very cheap. It’s a- it’s a better life. It’s the reason we don’t short stocks. Even if we made a lot of money doing it, I don’t think either one of us would bother. We found it unpleasant. You’re crazy you’re rich that if you deliberately go out and do a lot of unpleasant things you don’t have to. That was the most useful idea that Ben Graham ever had. Have the mindset of someone that was buying into a business wanting to hold for the long pole. And use that mindset when thinking of stocks. And we- neither one of us have ever departed from that one.

他通过价值投资于那些他以极低价格买入的糟糕公司，赚了数百万美元。此外，看着你不喜欢的糟糕公司是很不愉快的。看着你喜欢和钦佩的人成功，远比看着某个笨蛋半吊子地管理着一家非常便宜的公司要有趣得多。这是一种更好的生活。这就是我们不做空股票的原因。即使我们能通过做空赚很多钱，我想我们俩谁也不会费这个劲。我们觉得这很令人不快。如果你很有钱，却故意去做很多你本不必做的令人不快的事情，那你就是疯了。本·格雷厄姆提出的最有用的理念就是要以一个想要长期持有的商业买家心态来思考。考虑股票时就要用这种心态。而我们——我们从未偏离过这一点。

19:04:16:07  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well remember we- Warren had a long history of buying stocks before working capitol per share or hugely cheap se-securities. And my definition they were all pretty lousy companies. And in See’s, we bought a really good company. In it’s field, it was the best, and it’s part of California which is pretty much all of California, and that a wonderful product and a wonderful reputation and so on, and had a powerful trademark, and a good culture, and we bought that and it made so much money. It just was eye-opening how important these brands were. I don’t think that Warren would have made all the money that Berkshire made in Coca Cola – If he hadn’t bought See’s, it just, he learned. The record of Berkshire Hathaway and the record of Warren Buffett is a record based on continuous learning. If he hadn’t kept learning from every experience, the record would not be as good. He learned from See’s that he should buy Coca Cola.

记得沃伦在买入每股账面价值大幅低于市价的廉价证券方面有着漫长的历史，而我认为那些公司大多都很糟糕。在喜诗糖果公司，我们买下了一家真正优秀的公司。在它所处的领域，它是最好的；它遍布几乎整个加利福尼亚；它拥有出色的产品和声誉、强大的商标以及良好的企业文化。我们买下它后，它赚了大笔钱。这让我们大开眼界，看到品牌的重要性。我认为如果沃伦没有买下喜诗糖果公司，伯克希尔在可口可乐上的投资也不会赚那么多钱——他正是在喜诗糖果公司的投资中学到了这一点。伯克希尔·哈撒韦和沃伦·巴菲特的成功史就是不断学习的历史。如果他没有从每一次经验中持续学习，那么成绩就不会如此出色。他正是从喜诗糖果公司学会了购买可口可乐。

19:05:38:06  

It—you really come to understand the power of a brand. More when you buy something very cheaply and you’re still getting 300% per annum on your investment in cash. That draws your attention that a brand can be very important.

你确实会更加理解品牌的力量。尤其当你以极低的价格买入，并且仍然每年从现金投资中获得300%的回报时，这会引起你的关注，让你意识到品牌可以非常重要。

19:06:36:22  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well, what really makes it work is- the-the business school term is durable competitive advantage, which is a pretty good term. You really want an advantage that—nourished without overwhelming skill will keep working for you for a long, long time. You want to avoid a business that is just so brutally competitive that nobody does well over the long pull. We’ve bought some businesses that looked pretty good to us that turned out to be pretty bad. We have a few of them still around but luckily they’re small. We sell them if they present problems we just can’t solve. But if they just turn out to be a little mediocre, we hold. We’re not gonna play gin rummy with the people that are part of our lives.

实际上，让企业长期良好运转的关键就是商学院所说的“持久竞争优势”，这是一个相当恰当的术语。你真正想要的是这样一种优势：即便不需要极其高超的技能，它也能长期为你发挥作用。你要避免那些竞争异常激烈、长期内无人能出类拔萃的行业。我们也买过一些看起来很不错但结果很糟糕的企业。虽然其中还有几个留存着，但幸运的是规模都很小。如果它们出现我们解决不了的问题，我们就会卖掉。但如果它们只是表现平平，我们就继续持有。我们不会像和生活中相关的人打牌那样随意更换。

19:08:29:13  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

He was just like me, he didn’t improve much at all for quite a- for decades. We were pretty good but not really good. And then he really started working at it and working with somebody who is a world champion, and he is really quite good now, whereas I have stayed the same.  

他一开始和我一样，几十年里几乎没有什么进步。我们打得还行，但并不算真正厉害。后来他开始认真投入，还和一位世界冠军一起训练，现在他的水平已经非常高了，而我还是原地踏步。

19:09:28:07  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well we found out what had happened because we were on the board, and it- that’s another example of a mistake that finally worked out pretty well. We never should have bought into Salomon. It was too much trouble, it was too much danger, it was too much involvement. And, Warren would have probably made more- even though the investment finally worked out well, it caused a lot of agony and Warren would have made more money some other way, better, so it was- it was another mistake that worked out well. But the crisis, once we were on the board, uh, the company could have gone under. It was a very serious, exciting crisis with crucial meetings and if Nick Brady, the secretary of the treasury hadn’t relented on a key point, Salomon might have gone under.  

我们之所以知道当时发生了什么，是因为我们在董事会里。这又是一个“最终还算不错”的错误案例。我们根本就不该买进所罗门，那是个麻烦不断、高风险、牵涉极深的投资。虽然最终这笔投资效果还行，但过程中的痛苦太多，沃伦本可以用其他方式赚到更多的钱、更省事，所以这还是一个结果不错的错误。当我们进入董事会后，那场危机差点让公司垮掉。这是一场非常严重而又紧张刺激的危机，有许多关键会议。如果不是财政部长尼克·布雷迪在一个关键点上松了口，所罗门可能真的就没了。

19:10:27:21  

And he-he- he went with Warren because he trusted him—and it saved Salomon. It shows how heavy and good reputation is really helpful in life. The interesting thing about that is Nick Brady’s family had owned stock in Berkshire when it was a textile company. And he, when he was at the Harvard business school, determined it was a lousy business and he had his branch of the family sell out. The other branch of the family stayed and the guy got to like Warren when he came on the board and he was kind of a stubborn New-Englander, and he held all his shares in this lousy, failing business, and of course, he became enormously rich. Whereas Nick Brady who made the correct decision to get out of a lousy business watched his relative who knew less and hadn’t gone to business school and so on, made this great fortune. Life is full of little ironies like that one. I don’t think it bothers Nick Brady, he’s a pretty mature fellow. But, it was one of those crazy quirks of life.  

他——他之所以支持沃伦，是因为他信任他——而这也拯救了所罗门。这说明声誉的分量和价值在现实中有多重要。有意思的是，尼克·布雷迪的家族早在伯克希尔还是一家纺织公司时就持有它的股票。而尼克在哈佛商学院读书时，认定那是个烂生意，就让他们这一支家族把股票全卖了。另一支家族没有卖，一个有点倔强的新英格兰人，在沃伦进董事会后喜欢上了他，坚持持有这家失败的烂公司股票，结果当然是大富大贵。而尼克·布雷迪，虽然做了理性的正确决定退出烂公司，却只能看着一个没上过商学院、懂得更少的亲戚发财。这就是生活中充满的讽刺之一。我不认为尼克·布雷迪会因此难受，他是个很成熟的人。但，这确实是生活中那些古怪又讽刺的小插曲之一。

19:23:42:00  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well if you, if you start with a bunch of lousy businesses, which is what we started with, we-we’re gonna ring a fair amount of cash out of those businesses. So basically we started out with cash, and ended up buying a bunch of businesses, including insurance companies, and drove Berkshire without really issuing much stock to anybody from virtually nothing into hundreds of billions of dollars a market cap. Nobody else has a record like that. There are some great conglomerates: General Electric, United Technologies, Honey Well, but nobody has a record like ours. That’s what’s unusual, it-it’s done better.  

如果你一开始是从一堆烂公司起步——我们就是从那些烂公司起家的——你总还能从中榨出不少现金。所以基本上，我们一开始有了些现金，然后陆续买了一些公司，包括保险公司，在几乎没有怎么发行股票的情况下，把伯克希尔从一个几乎一无所有的小公司，发展成市值数千亿美元的巨头。没有其他人能有这样的纪录。有一些很棒的企业集团：通用电气、联合技术、霍尼韦尔，但没有一个能做到我们这样。这就是不寻常的地方——我们干得更好。

19:25:26:16  

If you’re in a big bureaucracy, it can’t change. It’s just too hard. So you might say well I’d like to operate that way with no overhead and just a few people at headquarters and quick decisions that are good and, but they’re locked into a procedure like the army or navy with lots of meetings and people and they- they just can’t get to where we are from where they are. And they know that, and so they- they just shrug their shoulders. If it’s some way to do way better than I do by that method well I, God bless them, I-I don’t envy them because I can’t follow them.  

如果你身处庞大的官僚体系，那是改不动的，太难了。你可能会说，你也想用我们的方式来运作——没有管理层冗余、总部只有几个人、能迅速做出好决策——但他们的体系就像陆军或海军，有太多会议、太多人，他们根本不可能从他们现在的位置走到我们的位置。而他们也知道这一点，于是他们就耸耸肩。如果有人能用那种方式干得比我们还好，那就祝他们好运吧，我不会嫉妒他们，因为我根本学不来。

19:27:12:01  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well I think the modern Berkshire is pretty much all a reflection of Warren. The businesses that he started with are gone, most of them died under him, and—and so he’s created Berkshire with nothing but a small bit of starting money.  

我认为今天的伯克希尔几乎完全是沃伦的映射。他起初接手的那些公司现在都没了，大多数在他手上就已经结束。所以说，他是用一小笔起步资金，从零创造了今天的伯克希尔。

19:27:47:07  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well we used to have just—30 people in a cafeteria, and now we have this huge public spectacle. But, I think it’s helped the company, I mean the big spectacle meetings, it’s helped the teaching part of Warren’s personality. I think it’s been very good for us. I remember Warren used to volunteer as a teacher at the University of Omaha. He likes a certain amount of this. He would hate doing it all the time. No, I think Warren has his life just the way he wants it. Including the annual meeting. Celebration is part of making a group of people work well together. It’s a celebration.  

我们以前开会时只有三十个人，坐在食堂里。现在却成了这么一场盛大的公众活动。但我认为这对公司有帮助，我是说这种大型的会议，对沃伦的教学型人格很有助益。我觉得这对我们是件大好事。我记得沃伦曾经在奥马哈大学做志愿教师。他喜欢这种程度的展示，但不会喜欢整天都做这个。不，我觉得沃伦现在的生活正是他想要的样子，连年会也是。他把年会当作一种庆典，而庆典是让一个团队更好协作的一部分。就是一个庆典。

19:29:47:19  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well he came out of a private partnership where people he knew were trusting him a lot when he was obscure. And he- and he had his fr-relatives in the partnership and they were not rich. So he was, always had a good stewardship idea and he just, as it got bigger, started treating everybody else the way he treated his relatives. That is a very good idea. I have a name for it, they call it “Extended Confucianism,” it’s a very good idea to extend your Confucianism. Certainly to suppliers and customers and so on.  

他最初来自一个私人合伙企业，那时候他还默默无闻，但身边人非常信任他。而且他的一些亲戚也在那个合伙企业里，他们并不富裕。所以他一开始就有良好的“受托人”意识，后来规模越来越大时，他就开始用对待亲戚的方式来对待所有人。这是个非常好的主意。我给它起了个名字，叫做“扩展的儒家思想”，扩展你的儒家思想是个非常好的主意。当然也要扩展到供应商、客户等等。

19:30:52:22  

It’s so powerful. I constantly talk about Berkshire: a seamless web of deserved trust. It’s such a simple idea. And then bureaucracy has so much dysfunction and evil buried in it, even when the people in the bureaucracy are not awful people. That, running a system that has practically no bureaucracy at headquarters is hugely advantageous to Berkshire.  

它非常强大。我经常谈论伯克希尔：一个无缝的、当之无愧的信任之网。这是个如此简单的想法。而官僚体制本身就埋藏着如此多的功能障碍和弊端，即使官僚体制中的人并非坏人。因此，运营一个总部几乎没有官僚机构的系统，对伯克希尔来说是巨大的优势。

19:31:49:20  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

I’ll tell you how you do it. Have you ever seen a juggler juggle 25 milk bottles? How did he ever get to do that? The answer is he started with 1 bottle, then 2, then 3 then just kept doing it and pretty sure he was at 25. And that’s the way we did it. Now there’s a limit. Ma-maybe the guy has to stop at 25. And I don’t think that is happening to us yet. Our return is slowing down, but Berkshire is still a collection of businesses that are above the average quality of the indexes, so it’s a very respectable investment even though it can’t work the kind of miracles it did (inhales) when we were young. And that’s a source of enormous satisfaction to both of us.  

我来告诉你该怎么做。你见过有人能同时抛接25个牛奶瓶吗？他是怎么做到的？答案是，他从一个开始，然后两个、三个，一直练下去，最后就能同时抛接25个。这就是我们的方法。当然，这种方式是有上限的——也许这个杂技演员最终只能停在25个。但我觉得我们还没到那个极限。我们的回报确实在放缓，但伯克希尔仍然是由一群高于指数平均质量的企业组成的，所以它依然是一个很体面的投资对象，尽管它已经不可能再像我们年轻时那样创造奇迹了。而这对我们两人来说，是一种巨大的满足。

19:32:58:01  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well I think our philosophy is basically pretty universal, and I don’t mean it’s the only way to get ahead, because there are a lot-a lot of different ways to get ahead in a competitive scrambling world. There are even some rogues that get ahead. I have always loved the statement of one of the popes about Cardinal Richelieu, and what the pope said was if there is a God, Cardinal Richelieu has much to answer for, but if not, he’s done very well. Well there are a lot of people who succeed like cardinal Richelieu. I don’t want that kind of success but a lot of people get it.  

我认为我们的理念基本上是很普适的。当然，我不是说那是唯一的成功之道，因为在这个竞争激烈、你争我抢的世界里，有很多通往成功的路径。甚至有些流氓也能成功。我一直很喜欢一位教皇谈论红衣主教黎塞留时说的一句话：如果真的有上帝，那黎塞留有很多事要交代；但如果没有，那他干得真不错。这个世界上确实有很多人就像黎塞留那样成功。我并不想要那种成功，但很多人确实得到了。

标题  投资游戏  

19:34:06:00  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well we both love the investment game, it enables you to think about a whole lot of intertwined things, and you get to watch a lot of people who are fabulously good at doing something who are your partners. That is very pleasant. It’s a lot like being on a winning football team or something. And of course the looking for new things is a bit like hunting and fishing, so we have a way of living that has both more pleasure and more achievement in it, so why wouldn’t we like it?  

我们俩都热爱投资这场游戏，它能让你思考许多相互交织的事物，并且还能看到与你并肩合作、在各自领域技艺非凡的人们。这非常愉快。这就像置身于一支常胜的橄榄球队。寻找新机会也像打猎和钓鱼，我们的生活方式因此兼具更多乐趣与成就感，我们又怎会不喜欢呢？

Nobody wins the game, we’re all dead in the end. You just win foryou-you just serve along for a little while and then you lose.  

没有人能最终赢得这场游戏，我们终究都会离世。你只是暂时领先——只是乘风而行一段时间，然后就输了。

标题  沃伦的好胜天性  

19:36:05:14  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

He likes to win at Bridge. He likes to win at business. Now he doesn’t like to win at all costs, he wants to win by playing by the rules and all that. But yes, Warren likes to win. Warren is so competitive that if you watch his life, you will find that he doesn’t play what he’s not good at. When he got old enough so he couldn’t play good golf, he quit, and he would do the same thing if he – if his Bridge skills went way down. Warren does not like to play games he’s not good at.  

他喜欢在桥牌上取胜，也喜欢在商业上取胜。当然，他并非不择手段，而是要在遵守规则的前提下获胜。但没错，沃伦就是喜欢赢。沃伦的好胜心如此强烈，以至于如果你观察他的生活，就会发现他从不参与自己不擅长的游戏。当他年纪大到打不好高尔夫时，他就放弃了；如果有一天他的桥牌水平大幅下降，他也会做同样的事。沃伦不喜欢参与自己不擅长的比赛。

标题  沃伦与社会不公  

19:37:24:10  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well Warren has a streak of sympathy for people who are unfairly treated and get bad outcomes. It’s not like he spends a lot of time with such people and I wonder what basis, but he has-he feels a sort of obligation to vote and help in a way that will be good for a lot of people that are way less fortunate than he is. He’s more so than I am. I’m more philosophical about the inequalities of the world and I wouldn’t waste a lot of time trying to fix something that the world has had for so long. But-but Warren likes to vote to try and fix it.  

沃伦对遭受不公待遇并落得悲惨结局的人怀有同情心。他并不会花很多时间与这些人相处，我也不清楚他的依据，但他觉得自己有义务通过投票和帮助来改善许多远不如他幸运的人的处境。他在这方面比我更积极。我对世界的不平等更持哲学态度，不愿花太多时间去解决一个长期存在的问题，但沃伦愿意通过投票去尝试改变。  

19:38:41:21  

He has more of it than other members of his family. I worked for his grandfather: it was not what drove his grandfather. And, no I would say that Warren has- I would give Susie some credit for that. Susie was a wonderful mate for Warren in all those early years and did him a world of good. Unconditional love, and good company, and loyal, just all the nice things. And Susie had all these sympathies. I give her credit for some of that in Warren.  

他比家族其他成员更具这种同情心。我曾为他的祖父工作——这并不是驱动他祖父的特质。我认为沃伦的这份同情应部分归功于苏茜。苏茜在那些早年是沃伦出色的伴侣，为他带来了巨大的益处：无条件的爱、良伴与忠诚，所有美好的品质兼而有之。苏茜怀有这些同情心，我把沃伦身上的一部分同情归功于她。  

标题  道德  

19:40:25:14  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well you’ve got to remember one key fact. We both of us know that we’ve done better by having ethics. Well do you deserve credit for doing something you know is gonna work better for you. I don’t want to take too much credit since I know cl-clearly that it helps me instead of hurts me. So, I think the people who are ethical, when they know it’s gonna hurt them, deserve credit than people like me and Warren who-who know all along that the ethics is gonna help us in the end.  

你得记住一个关键事实：我们俩都知道，坚持道德让我们表现更好。那么，做一件你知道对自己更有利的事真的值得称赞吗？我不想获得太多赞誉，因为我十分清楚这对我有益而非有害。所以，在明知会吃亏时仍然守正的人，比我和沃伦这种深知道德最终会带来好处的人，更值得称赞。  

I think partly both of us like it intrinsically, so I don’t think it’s- we’re doing it just cause it works better. But we know it works better, and so how-what’s our real motivation? I don’t think people know their own motivations. I don’t think I know mine. All I know is I end up there and I know I don’t deserve as much credit for it as somebody who does it when it hurts him, because I’m doing it when I know it’s gonna help me net or the long pull.  

我想在某种程度上，我们本身就喜欢这样做，所以并非只因其更有效才去做。但我们知道它确实更有效，那我们的真正动机是什么？我觉得人们并不了解自己的动机，我也不确定自己的动机。我只知道我最终如此行事，并且我明白自己不该与那些明知会受损却仍坚守道德的人获得同等赞誉，因为我是明知长期而言这会帮助我时才这么做的。  

标题  投资伯灵顿北方  

19:44:47:02  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well he thought it was a good business a-run by good people. It’s exactly what we like. And I think there was a little tinge of nostalgia, it’s a sort of a Middle Western company, the Burlington railroad was very important in Omaha, always, and the Union Pacific is headquartered in Omaha. And Warren had always been an electric train fanatic when he was young and I had electric trains, no I think there was a little bit of nostalgia in it too.  

他认为那是一门好生意，由优秀的人经营，这正是我们喜欢的类型。我想其中也掺杂了一点怀旧情绪。这家公司带有中西部色彩，伯灵顿铁路在奥马哈一直举足轻重，而联合太平洋铁路总部也设在奥马哈。沃伦小时候一直迷恋电动火车，我也玩电动火车，所以这桩投资也带着一丝怀旧。  

19:45:43:11  

He’s always looking for foreign investments. What he’s found mostly is United States investments, and yeah he-he it has to be a pleasure for somebody raised in Omaha to buy the Burlington Northern Railroad. It built a whole country, it changed the whole world, the railroads it, we all remember them. It was a time we used them instead of airplanes. I can remember that time. And um, I can remember the trips on the old Pullman cars, no it—we both liked it. But we wouldn’t have bought it if the numbers hadn’t been good.  

他一直在寻找海外投资机会，但实际找到的多是美国投资。对于一个在奥马哈长大的人来说，收购伯灵顿北方铁路无疑是一种乐趣。铁路曾经建设了整个国家，改变了整个世界，我们都记得那段历史——那时我们坐火车而不是飞机出行。我记得那个时代，也记得乘坐旧普尔曼车厢的旅程。我们都很喜欢这桩投资，但如果财务数字不够出色，我们也不会买下它。

标题  与沃伦的关系  

19:46:57:02  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

By and large it’s all been pretty pleasant, and we’ve had ups and downs. I have never heard Warren complain about a downdraft. I’ve never heard him indicate that he regards the world as been-being unfair to him, even when Susie died which really shook him up, uh, for quite a while even, but he never complained. He never thought the world was being unfair when they took her away.  

总体而言，这一路都颇为愉快，虽也经历起伏。我从未听沃伦抱怨市场低潮，也没听他认为世界对他不公。即便苏茜去世让他震动良久，他从未抱怨；他从未觉得世界在夺走她时对他不公。  

标题  沃伦的性格  

19:47:47:16  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Some people just naturally complain, and other people are just naturally put their head down and sail through it- soldier through it. Warren and I believe in just soldiering through it without too much fuss. I have the theory that the dumbest thing you can ever do in life is to ever feel like a victim. And any politician that makes people feel like victims I automatically dislike. I never saw any good to come off feeling like a victim. Even if you are a victim, I think it’s a mistake.  

有些人天生爱抱怨，另一些人则低头硬撑、咬牙前行。沃伦和我都信奉少计较、多挺过去。我一直认为人生最愚蠢的事就是觉得自己是受害者；任何让人有受害者心态的政客，我都会本能厌恶。我从未见过这种心态带来好处。即便真是受害者，我也认为把自己当受害者是错误的。  

19:50:45:22  

The Chinese were living in poverty, subsistence agriculture in caves and so on, real poverty, hundreds of millions of them and (pause) they worked their way out of poverty, and look at them now. How would it have worked if they said no-no we’ll vote ourselves rich, we’ll just raise the minimum wage. It just- it’s so much better to use the Chinese way. And there wasn’t that much complaint about all that Chinese poverty. They just soldiered through, and worked their way out.  

中国曾有数亿人深陷贫困，住窑洞、靠自给自足的农业维生——真正的贫困。然而他们通过自身努力摆脱了贫困，如今成就有目共睹。若他们当初说“不，我们靠投票让自己富裕，提高最低工资就行”，那会怎样？显然走中国式道路更好。面对贫穷，他们没太多抱怨，而是咬牙坚持、奋斗脱贫。  

标题  掌握关键理念  

19:52:08:11  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Well I’ve always had the idea that if you, pretty much, knew all the obvious things you should know in pretty much all the disciplines, and use that knowledge routinely, and didn’t go crazy or irrational or go into anger or resentment or a lot- then it would work very well. And so, naturally I- I’ve operated that way all my life. It was my way of getting ahead. I didn’t get ahead by specializing I got ahead by knowing the big ideas in all the disciplines. And that-that works if you’re a wide-ranging investor, like me or Warren. It’s not the way for most people to get ahead. And so we were very lucky to have the outcomes we did, I don’t think either of us deserves huge credit for what happened. We were in the right place with the right family values, the right temperaments, and I’m sure we had some favorable breaks. But, yes I (stutters briefly) I was lucky in that my grandfather Munger really believed down to the soles of his feet that rationality was a moral duty. It’s just the way he was put together. And so I-it was very easy for me to pick up that idea. But-but even for people with prepared minds, (stutters) we got more- we have better results than are at all common, so there was some luck in it.  

我始终认为，只要在几乎所有学科中掌握那些显而易见、应当了解的要点，并日常运用这些知识，不陷入疯狂、非理性、愤怒或怨恨等情绪，一切都会运转良好。因此我一生都按此行事。这是我取得进步的方法。我不是靠专业化取胜，而是靠在各学科中掌握关键理念取胜。对像我和沃伦这样涉猎广泛的投资者而言，这条路行得通，但多数人并非如此晋升。我们获得如今的成果颇为幸运；我认为我们俩都不必为此获得过多功劳。我们身处合适的环境，拥有正确的家庭价值观、合适的性格，再加上一些有利机遇。我很幸运，因为我的祖父芒格坚信理性是道德义务，这一点根植他的骨髓，我也因此易于接受这一理念。即便拥有预备心智，我们取得的成就也高于常人，这其中确有运气成分。

标题  Lollapalooza效应  

19:55:19:19  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

Amazing how you can go through a modern textbook in psychology, whole damn thousand pages, and in a subject that’s been worked over by generations of academicians, you will no feeble—you will not find people talking about a way that where you can buy in 4 or 5 psychological ten-tendencies at once, you get a Lollapalooza effect. That’s a hugely important idea, and I don’t know why a whole academic subject uh- I think the reason they ignore it is it’s hard to do their little experiments to prove it. Listen, Berkshire is a Lollapalooza effect. There are several factors that intertwine, all moving in the same direction.  

令人惊讶的是，你可以翻遍一本上千页的现代心理学教材——这个学科已被几代学者反复钻研——却几乎找不到有人谈论这样一种现象：当你一次性叠加四五种心理倾向时，就会产生“Lollapalooza效应”。这是极其重要的观念，但整个学界似乎忽视它，我想原因在于这种效应难以用他们的小实验来验证。听着，伯克希尔本身就是Lollapalooza效应：多个因素交织在一起，齐头并进。  

标题  伯克希尔哈撒韦的投资组合  

19:57:20:16  

CHARLIE MUNGER  

查理·芒格  

I think that both of us prefer to make our money in association of people with merit. But if a marketable security was available in gobs, on a horrible, mispriced basis in some lousy business, I think we might still buy it. If things are cheap enough, it gets the juices flowing. I’m not sure we’re right to do that, but I think we might do it - it hasn’t happened in a while. So we-we’ve tended to drift out of it but would we ever go back in? Well, Warren did those derivatives where he sold puts on the indexes, I think we’ll make lots of billions of dollars out of that very easily. I think both of us believe the world would be better off without those derivative markets, but if they’re there and it’s mispriced, we act. They’re for sale, it’s a public market, there’s no dishonor. If you ask me as a voter, if I would vote the derivative markets, like that one, out of existence, I’d do it tomorrow. And Warren wrote the best and only letter when the option exchanges were allowed, he wrote a letter of objection, it was like the only letter. You really ought to dig that out and print it because it’s-it’s-it’s- he was so right, and it was so early and nobody else was saying it. So anything about Buffett, ought to go back and get his letter about the derivatives in the option mark- he said we don’t need these and even when 2007 came, nobody dug it up and played it up big, but you can do it, probably should.  

我想我们俩都更喜欢与有真才实学的人合作赚钱。但如果市面上出现一大堆被严重低估、价格离谱的劣质企业证券，我想我们仍可能买入。只要够便宜，就会让人兴奋。我不确定这做法是否绝对正确，但我们大概会这么干——只是很久没遇到这种情况了。所以我们渐渐远离那类机会，但会不会再度出手？要知道，沃伦当年卖出指数期权的看跌合约——我认为我们将轻松赚到数十亿美元。我们俩都相信世界若没有那些衍生品市场会更好，可既然它们存在又被错定价，我们就会行动。它们公开出售，属于公共市场，并无不名誉。如果让我投票决定是否让那类衍生品市场消失，我明天就会投赞成票。期权交易所放行时，沃伦写过唯一的一封反对信；那是唯一的声音，你们真该把那封信找出来印出来——他当时就完全说对了，而别人都没提。凡是研究巴菲特的人，都该回头看看他那封关于期权衍生品市场的信——他当时就说“我们不需要这些”，可到了2007年，仍没人把那封信挖出来大肆报道，但你们可以，也应该这么做。  

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