It’s a question of being, it’s the ability to inject enormous amounts of leverage into a system where leverage is dangerous. And without people fully appreciating the amount of leverage and as a handmaiden of leverage, a risk of counterparties running up huge amounts of receivables and payables. And one of the reasons stock markets work well is that you’ve got a three day settlement period. But if you have a one year settlement period–in fact, I think over in Kuwait they did some years ago, and they had a total debacle–you would have far more problems. Well, derivatives and bonds are very, very long settlement period and things can happen between when you write a contract and if you have a settlement period, there was one at Gen Re that was 100 years, very hard to predict the behavior of somebody else 100 years from now. (laughs) And derivatives present big problems. Now, if there’s only a small amount in use it doesn’t make that much difference to the system. But if they become more and more pervasive, more and more imaginative and less, and in effect very little attention being paid to them which is why I sounded a warning. I don’t think they’re evil per se, it’s just, they, I mean there’s nothing wrong with having a futures contract or something of the sort but they do let people engage in massive mischief. And the thing I found really extraordinary– and Tracy, you might give them that letter– I mean I wrote this letter in 1982, about the date–the, here, you’ve got a Commission that’s doing what before I did, you know, many years ago. And when we had those hearings after ’29 we decided leverage was dangerous for people and it could cause systemic problems when used in the stock market. And we had the Federal Reserve power to determine margin requirements. We said that was important and that if people got over leveraged in the stocks they could cause a problem not only for themselves but for others if it was done on a wide scale. And then we came along in 1982 and we in a sense opened up leverage to anybody in extreme measures and since that time, 28 years since then, I and perhaps others, but I know I pointed out at least 20 times the, really nonsense of saying somebody at the Federal Reserves telling people they can only borrow 50% against stocks or whatever the margin requirements have been at various times. And then at the same time telling them that you can go gamble, you know, in S&P futures or something, the 2% or 3% margin or whatever it might be and to this day, and I’ve talked to Congress about it and to this day we sit there with a system where the Federal Reserve is telling you how much you can borrow against stocks and we’ve got this parallel system where people can gamble anything they want virtually in terms of the most obvious one being the S&P futures. And I’ve seen no attempt by anybody to address that total contradiction. Might be a suggestion for your Commission.
WARREN BUFFETT:
It’s a tricky definition, you know, it’s like pornography (laughs) the famous quote and all that, but I look at it in terms of the intent of the person engaging in the transaction. And an investment operation and that’s not the way Graham defines it in his book, but an investment operation in my view is one where you look to the asset itself to determine your decision to lay out some money now to get some more money back later on.
Warren Buffett:
这确实很难下定义。你知道,就像“色情”(pornography)那句著名的话一样(笑)——大概意思是:很难精确定义,但我一看就知道是什么。我会从“参与交易的人到底想干什么”(intent)来理解。在我看来,“投资”(investment operation)是:你依据资产本身来做决定——现在拿出一些钱,将来通过资产自身的经营/产出拿回更多的钱。这并不是 Graham 在书里的定义方式,但这是我的理解。
So you look to the apartment house, you look to the stock, you look to the farm in terms of what that will produce. And you don’t really care whether there’s a quote under it all. You are basically committing some funds now to get more funds later on through the operation of the asset. Speculation, I would define, as much more focused on the price action of the stock, particularly that you buy or the indexed future or something of the sort. Because you are not really, you are counting on, for whatever factors, could be quarterly earnings, could be up or it’s going to split or whatever it may be or increase the dividend, but you are not looking to the asset itself. And I say the real test of how you, what you’re doing is whether you care whether the markets are open.
于是你看的是公寓楼、股票、农场——看它们能产出什么。你并不怎么在意市场上有没有一个“报价”(quote)挂在那儿。你本质上是在把资金投进去,让资产通过自身运作在未来给你带来更多资金。而“投机”(speculation),我会定义为:更多关注价格走势(price action)。尤其是你买的那只股票、或者某个指数期货(indexed future)之类。因为你真正依赖的不是资产本身,而是某些会推动价格的因素:可能是季度盈利、可能是要拆股、可能是要增发股息,等等。但你并不是在看资产本身的产出能力。我认为判断你到底在做什么的真正测试是:你在不在乎市场明天开不开门。
最重要的注意力导致的一系列的问题,不仅仅是投资,也包括工作、生活上各种判断。
When I buy a stock, I don’t care whether they close the stock market tomorrow for a couple of years because I’m looking to the business, Coca-Cola or whatever it may be to produce returns for me in the future from the business. Now if I care whether the stock market is open tomorrow then I say to some extent I’m speculating because I’m thinking about whether the price is going to up tomorrow or not. I don’t know where the price is going to go.
当我买一只股票时,我不在乎明天股市是不是关上两年——因为我看的是这门生意本身(比如 Coca-Cola 之类)未来能从经营中给我带来回报。但如果我很在乎股市明天开不开门,那我就会说:在某种程度上我是在投机,因为我在想明天价格会上还是会下。我不知道价格会怎么走。
And then gambling I would define as engaging in a transaction which doesn’t need to be part of the system. I mean, if I want to bet on a football game, you know, the football game’s operation is not dependent on whether I bet or not. Now, if I want to bet on October wheat or something of the sort people have to raise wheat and when they plant it they don’t know what the price is going be later on. So you need activity on the other side of that and who may be speculating on it but it is not an artificial transaction that has no necessity for existing in an economic framework. And the gambling propensity with people is huge. I mean, you took a, you know, some terrible sand out in the west about 100 years ago and you created, you know, huge industry with people flying thousands of miles to do things which are mathematically unintelligent, you know. Now that is, shows something in mankind that has a strong, strong behavioral, has a strong behavioral aspect to it and think how much easier it is, you know, to sit there in front of a computer and have the same amount of fun without, you know, getting on a plane and going a 1,000 miles and having to make reservations and do all that sort of thing. So with this propensity to gamble encouraged incidentally by the state with lotteries, you know, with terrible odds attached to them, people don’t have to be trained to want to gamble in this country but they, they have this instinct, a great many people. They’re encouraged when they see some successes around, that’s why the bells and whistles go off in the casino when somebody hits a jackpot, you know. So, you know, you have all these things pushing to that including governmental urging to buy lottery tickets and all that sort of thing. And now you’ve got a vehicle like, you know, S&P futures or something where you can go in and out and where Congress has granted particularly favorable tax treatment to you if you win. I mean, you can be in for ten seconds and have 60% long term gain which I regard as, you know, extraordinary. But it exists.
至于“赌博”(gambling),我会把它定义为:参与一种“并不需要成为经济系统一部分”的交易。比如我想赌一场足球赛,足球赛会不会进行并不取决于我赌不赌。但如果我想赌 10 月小麦(October wheat)之类,那就不一样:小麦必须有人种,种下去时他们并不知道后来价格会是多少,所以市场需要另一边有人参与,可能有人在投机,但它并不是那种“完全人为制造、在经济框架中毫无必要存在”的交易。人的赌博倾向是非常强的。你想想,大约 100 年前,有人把西部一片糟糕的沙地(指拉斯维加斯一带)搞成了一个巨大的产业,人们飞几千英里去做一些“数学上并不明智”的事情。那说明人类行为里有一种非常强、非常强的倾向。再想想,现在坐在电脑前就能获得同样的乐趣,而不用坐飞机飞 1,000 英里、订酒店、搞各种安排——这不是更容易了吗?而且这种赌博倾向还会被“国家”通过彩票(lotteries)等方式所鼓励——尽管彩票赔率非常糟糕。在这个国家,人们根本不需要被训练才想赌博,很多人天生就有这种本能。看到身边有人“成功”就更容易被刺激——赌场里有人中了大奖,铃铛和灯光响个不停,就是为了刺激这种心理。于是各种力量都在推着它走,包括政府鼓励你去买彩票吗之类。现在你又有了像 S&P futures(标普期货)这样的工具,你可以随意进出;而且国会还给了你如果赢了就享有特别有利的税收待遇。我的意思是,你哪怕只持有十秒钟,也可以把其中 60% 视为长期资本利得(long term gain)——我认为这简直不可思议,但它就是存在。