2025-07-15 JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) Q2 2025 Earnings Call Transcript
JPMorgan Chase & Co. (NYSE:JPM) Q2 2025 Earnings Conference Call July 15, 2025 8:30 AM ET
Company Participants
James Dimon - Chairman & CEO
Jeremy Barnum - Executive VP & CFO
Conference Call Participants
Betsy Lynn Graseck - Morgan Stanley, Research Division
Christoph M. Kotowski - Oppenheimer & Co. Inc., Research Division
Christopher Edward McGratty - Keefe, Bruyette, & Woods, Inc., Research Division
Ebrahim Huseini Poonawala - BofA Securities, Research Division
Erika Najarian - UBS Investment Bank, Research Division
Gerard Sean Cassidy - RBC Capital Markets, Research Division
Glenn Paul Schorr - Evercore ISI Institutional Equities, Research Division
James Francis Mitchell - Seaport Research Partners
John Eamon McDonald - Truist Securities, Inc., Research Division
Kenneth Michael Usdin - Bernstein Autonomous LLP
Matthew Derek O'Connor - Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division
Michael Lawrence Mayo - Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, Research Division
Saul Martinez - HSBC Global Investment Research
Steven A. Alexopoulos - TD Cowen, Research Division
Operator
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to JPMorgan Chase's Second Quarter 2025 Earnings Call. This call is being recorded. \[Operator Instructions] We will now go live to the presentation. The presentation is available on JPMorgan Chase's website. Please refer to the disclaimer in the back concerning forward-looking statements. Please stand by.
主持人
女士们，先生们，早上好。欢迎参加摩根大通2025年第二季度财报电话会议。本次电话会议正在录音中。\[操作员说明] 我们现在将进行正式演示。演示文稿可在摩根大通官网获取。请参阅文末有关前瞻性声明的免责声明。请稍候。
At this time, I would like to turn the call over to JPMorgan Chase's Chairman and CEO, Jamie Dimon; and Chief Financial Officer, Jeremy Barnum. Mr. Barnum, please go ahead.
现在，我将电话交给摩根大通董事长兼首席执行官Jamie Dimon先生，以及首席财务官Jeremy Barnum先生。Barnum先生，请开始。
Jeremy Barnum
Thank you very much, and good morning, everyone. This quarter, the firm reported net income of \$15 billion, EPS of \$5.24 on revenue of \$45.7 billion, with an ROTCE of 21%. These results included an income tax benefit of \$774 million, which we described in more detail in the earnings press release.
Jeremy Barnum
非常感谢，大家早上好。本季度公司实现净利润150亿美元，每股收益为5.24美元，营收为457亿美元，股本回报率（ROTCE）为21%。这些结果包括7.74亿美元的所得税收益，具体细节在财报新闻稿中已有详细说明。
On the next page, we have some more detail. The firm reported revenue of \$45.7 billion, down \$5.3 billion, or 10% year-on-year. NII ex Markets was down \$185 million, or 1%, driven by the impact of lower rates and deposit margin compression, predominantly offset by higher wholesale deposits, higher revolving balances in Card, as well as the impact of securities activity, including from prior quarters. NIR ex Markets was down \$6.3 billion, or 31%, and excluding the net gain related to Visa shares and net investment securities losses in the prior year was up \$1 billion, or 8%, driven by higher Asset Management fees, higher auto lease income, higher Investment Banking fees and higher Payments fees. And Markets revenue was up \$1.1 billion or 15%.
下一页有更多细节说明。本季度公司营收为457亿美元，同比下降53亿美元，或10%。剔除市场业务的净利息收入（NII ex Markets）下降1.85亿美元，或1%，主要受利率下降和存款利差压缩影响，不过被批发存款增加、信用卡循环余额增长，以及包括前几个季度在内的证券活动影响所部分抵消。非利息收入（NIR）剔除市场业务后下降63亿美元，或31%；若剔除去年与Visa股份相关的净收益及投资证券的净损失，则同比增长10亿美元，或8%，主要受资产管理费、汽车租赁收入、投行业务费用和支付服务费用增长推动。而市场业务营收增长11亿美元，增幅为15%。
Expenses of \$23.8 billion were up \$66 million, and excluding last year's Visa stock contribution to the firm's Foundation was up \$1.1 billion, or 5%, primarily driven by compensation, higher brokerage and distribution fees as well as higher auto lease depreciation.
支出为238亿美元，较去年同期增加6600万美元；若不计去年向公司基金会捐赠Visa股票的影响，则同比增长11亿美元，或5%，主要由薪酬、经纪及分销费用增加，以及汽车租赁折旧上升所致。
And credit costs were \$2.8 billion, with net charge-offs of \$2.4 billion, and a net reserve build of \$439 million. The build was driven by new lending activity, largely offset by a decrease in the probabilities that we attached to the adverse scenarios and the allowance estimation.
信贷成本为28亿美元，其中净冲销24亿美元，新增准备金4.39亿美元。新增准备金主要源于新增放贷活动，部分被我们对不利情景的概率及备抵估算的下调所抵消。
On to the balance sheet on Page 3. We ended the quarter with a CET1 ratio of 15%, down 40 basis points versus the prior quarter as net income was more than offset by capital distributions and higher RWA. This quarter's higher RWA is primarily driven by an increase in wholesale lending across both CIB markets and banking, an increase in other markets activity as well as an increase in Card loans.
翻至第3页资产负债表部分。本季度末我们的普通股一级资本充足率（CET1）为15%，较上季度下降40个基点，因净利润增长被资本分配及风险加权资产（RWA）增加所抵消。本季度RWA上升主要是由于企业与投资银行（CIB）市场和银行业务中的批发贷款增加、其他市场活动上升以及信用卡贷款增长所致。
As you know, we completed CCAR a couple of weeks ago. Under the current rules, our indicative SCB is floored at 2.5% and goes into effect in 4Q '25. Our new SCB also reflects the Board's intention to increase the dividend to \$1.50 per share in the third quarter.
正如您所知，我们几周前完成了CCAR（资本压力测试）。根据当前规定，我们的指示性资本缓冲要求（SCB）底线为2.5%，将于2025年第四季度生效。新的SCB也反映了董事会计划在第三季度将每股股息提高至1.50美元的意图。
Now let's go to our businesses, starting with CCB. CCB reported net income of \$5.2 billion on revenue of \$18.8 billion, which was up 6% year-on-year. In Banking & Wealth Management revenue was up 3%, largely driven by growth in Wealth Management revenue with deposit NII relatively flat. Average deposits were down 1% year-on-year and flat sequentially. Client investment assets were up 14% year-on-year, driven by market performance and continued healthy flows into managed products. In Home Lending revenue was down 5% year-on-year, predominantly driven by lower NII.
现在我们来看各业务板块，首先是消费者与社区银行（CCB）。CCB本季度实现净利润52亿美元，营收为188亿美元，同比增长6%。在银行与财富管理方面，营收增长3%，主要由财富管理收入上升带动，存款净利息收入基本持平。平均存款同比下降1%，环比持平。客户投资资产同比增长14%，受益于市场表现良好以及持续有力的资金流入管理型产品。房屋贷款业务营收同比下降5%，主要受净利息收入减少影响。
Turning to Card Services & Auto, revenue was up 15% year-on-year, predominantly driven by Card NII on higher revolving balances, as well as higher operating lease income in Auto. Card outstandings were up 9% due to strong new card acquisition. In Auto originations were up 5%, driven by higher lease volumes. Expenses of \$9.9 billion were up 5% year-on-year largely driven by growth in technology and auto lease depreciation. Credit costs were \$2.1 billion, reflecting net charge-offs of \$2.1 billion, relatively flat year-on-year, in line with expectations.
接下来是信用卡与汽车金融业务，该板块营收同比增长15%，主要受益于信用卡循环余额上升带动的净利息收入增长，以及汽车业务中经营性租赁收入的增加。信用卡未偿余额同比增长9%，得益于新卡发卡量强劲。汽车贷款发放量同比增长5%，主要由于租赁交易量上升。支出为99亿美元，同比增长5%，主要由科技投入增加和汽车租赁折旧上升推动。信贷成本为21亿美元，与去年同期持平，反映了21亿美元的净冲销，符合预期。
Next, the Commercial & Investment Bank. CIB reported net income of \$6.7 billion, on revenue of \$19.5 billion, which was up 9% year-on-year. IB fees were up 7% year-on-year. We continue to rank #1 with wallet share of 8.9%. In advisory fees were up 8%, benefiting from increased sponsor activity. Debt underwriting fees were up 12%, primarily driven by a few large deals. In equity underwriting fees were down 6% year-on-year. Our pipeline remains robust, and the outlook along with the market tone and sentiment is notably more upbeat.
接着是企业与投资银行（CIB）业务。该板块本季度实现净利润67亿美元，营收为195亿美元，同比增长9%。投行业务手续费同比增长7%，我们继续保持市场第一的地位，钱包份额为8.9%。财务顾问费同比增长8%，受益于私募机构活动增加。债券承销费用同比增长12%，主要由几笔大型交易推动；而股票承销费用则同比下降6%。我们的项目储备仍然强劲，市场基调和情绪显著改善，前景更加积极。
Payments revenue was up 3% year-on-year, excluding equity investments driven by higher deposit balances and fee growth, predominantly offset by deposit margin compression. Lending revenue was down 6% year-on-year, reflecting higher losses on hedges.
支付业务营收同比增长3%，不包括股权投资因素，增长主要来自存款余额增加和手续费增长，但被存款利差压缩所部分抵消。贷款营收同比下降6%，反映出对冲损失增加。
Moving to Markets. Total revenue was up 15% year-on-year. Fixed income was up 14% with improved performance in Currencies & Emerging Markets, Rates and Commodities. This was partially offset by fewer opportunities in Securitized Products and Fixed Income Financing. Equities was up 15%. We continue to see strong performance across products, most notably in derivatives. Security Services revenue was up 12% year-on-year, driven by higher deposit balances and fee growth. Expenses of \$9.6 billion were up 5% year-on-year, driven by higher compensation, brokerage and technology expense, partially offset by lower legal expense.
市场业务方面，整体营收同比增长15%。固定收益营收增长14%，得益于外汇与新兴市场、利率和大宗商品业务表现改善，部分被证券化产品和固定收益融资机会减少所抵消。股票业务营收增长15%，各类产品表现强劲，衍生品尤为突出。证券服务收入同比增长12%，主要由于存款余额和手续费增长。支出为96亿美元，同比增长5%，主要由薪酬、经纪费用和科技支出上升所致，部分被法律支出下降抵消。
Average Banking & Payments loans were down 2% year-on-year and up 2% quarter-on-quarter with sequential growth, primarily driven by new loans with larger corporates. Average client deposits were up 16% year-on-year and up 5% sequentially, reflecting increased activity across Payments and Security Services. Finally, Credit costs were \$696 million, driven by builds in our C\&I portfolio, including new lending activity and downgrades to a handful of names, partially offset by the scenario probability adjustment, I mentioned upfront.
银行与支付类平均贷款同比下降2%，但环比增长2%，环比增长主要由大型企业新增贷款推动。客户平均存款同比增长16%，环比增长5%，反映出支付与证券服务活动增加。信贷成本为6.96亿美元，主要源于企业与机构贷款组合中的准备金增加，包括新增放贷活动及部分客户评级下调，部分被先前提到的情景概率调整所抵消。
Turning to Asset & Wealth Management to complete our lines of business. AWM reported net income of \$1.5 billion with a pretax margin of 34%. Revenue of \$5.8 billion was up 10% year-on-year, driven by growth in management fees on strong net inflows and higher average market levels, as well as higher brokerage activity and higher deposit balances. Expenses of \$3.7 billion were up 5% year-on-year driven by higher compensation, including revenue-related compensation and continued growth in our private banking advisor teams as well as higher distribution fees.
资产与财富管理（AWM）方面，该板块实现净利润15亿美元，税前利润率为34%。营收为58亿美元，同比增长10%，主要由管理费增加推动，这得益于强劲的净资金流入和更高的市场均值水平，同时经纪业务活跃度提高、存款余额也有所增长。支出为37亿美元，同比增长5%，主要由于薪酬上升，包括业绩相关薪酬，以及私人银行顾问团队的持续扩张和分销费用增加。
Long-term net inflows were \$31 billion for the quarter led by fixed income and equities. In liquidity, we saw net inflows of \$5 billion. AUM of \$4.3 trillion was up 18% year-on-year, and client assets of \$6.4 trillion were up 19% year-on-year, driven by continued net inflows and higher market levels. And finally, loans were up 7% year-on-year and 3% quarter-on-quarter, and deposits were up 9% year-on-year and 2% sequentially.
本季度长期净流入为310亿美元，主要集中在固定收益和股票类别。流动性产品净流入为50亿美元。资产管理规模（AUM）达到4.3万亿美元，同比增长18%；客户资产总额达到6.4万亿美元，同比增长19%，主要由持续的净流入及市场上涨推动。贷款同比增长7%，环比增长3%；存款同比增长9%，环比增长2%。
Turning to Corporate. Corporate reported net income of \$1.7 billion and includes the tax item I mentioned upfront. Revenue was \$1.5 billion for the quarter. NII was \$1.5 billion, down \$875 million year-on-year, NIR was a net gain of \$49 million, up \$148 million year-on-year, excluding the prior year's Visa-related gains. Expenses of \$547 million were down \$32 million year-on-year, excluding the Foundation contribution in the prior year that I mentioned earlier.
来看企业管理板块。本季度净利润为17亿美元，其中包括前文提到的税收项目。营收为15亿美元，其中净利息收入为15亿美元，同比下降8.75亿美元；非利息收入为净收益4900万美元，同比增加1.48亿美元（不含去年与Visa相关的收益）。支出为5.47亿美元，同比下降3200万美元，若不计去年对基金会的捐赠影响。
To finish up, I'll touch on the outlook. You'll recall that at Investor Day, I made a couple of comments previewing the potential evolution of the outlook. So now let me formalize that and give you updated guidance.
最后我来谈一下展望。你们可能记得在投资者日上我曾预告过前景可能的变化，现在我将其正式更新为新的指引。
First, we now expect NII ex Markets to be approximately \$92 billion, with the increase driven by changes in the forward curve and strong deposit growth in Payments, Security Services as well as balanced growth in Card. Total NII guidance is now about \$95.5 billion, implying \$3.5 billion of Markets NII.
首先，我们现在预计全年剔除市场业务的净利息收入将达到约920亿美元，增长主要来自远期利率曲线的变化，以及支付、证券服务中存款增长强劲，同时信用卡业务也实现平衡增长。总净利息收入指引为955亿美元，其中包含35亿美元的市场业务净利息收入。
Second, on adjusted expense, we now expect it to be about \$95.5 billion, primarily driven by the impact of the weaker dollar, which is largely bottom line neutral. And finally, on credit, we continue to expect the Card net charge-off rate to be approximately 3.6%.
第二，调整后支出预计为约955亿美元，主要由美元走弱推动，但对净利润几乎无影响。最后，在信贷方面，我们继续预计信用卡净冲销率将维持在约3.6%。
So reflecting on the quarter, while the environment remains extremely dynamic in many ways, navigating uncertainty is the norm for both us and our clients. But we're now happy to take your questions. So let's open the line for Q\&A.
总体来看，虽然当下环境仍在多个方面极具不确定性，但应对不确定性已成为我们与客户的常态。我们现在很乐意回答各位的问题，请开放问答环节。
Question-and-Answer Session
问答环节
Operator
主持人
Our first question will come from Christopher McGratty with QBW (sic) \[ KBW ].
我们的第一个问题来自 KBW 的 Christopher McGratty。
Christopher Edward McGratty
克里斯托弗·爱德华·麦格拉蒂
Jamie, relative to 3 months ago, there's a lot of optimism on financial deregulation and really going to break in the bank's favor. I'm interested if you agree, number one, with this optimism and anything specifically you could point to?
Jamie，相较三个月前，市场对金融监管放松充满乐观情绪，这似乎将对银行产生有利影响。首先，您是否认同这种乐观？是否有具体例子可以分享？
And secondarily, on capital, I'm interested in what's on or off the table in terms of uses of capital? What do you need to see from the macro regulatory? And how should we be thinking about the timing?
其次，关于资本问题，我想了解在资本用途方面有哪些选项被考虑或排除？从宏观监管角度看，您需要看到什么信号？我们该如何把握时机？
Jeremy Barnum
Let me take the second part of that first. So we have our standard capital hierarchy that we recite a lot, and I want to bore you by reciting it again. But I think it's important because it does serve as a guide in this context, right?
让我先回答第二个问题。我们有一套常被提及的标准资本使用顺序，我不想再重复得让你厌烦，但它确实在当前情境中起到指南作用。
So we deploy our capital against organic and inorganic growth, and we ensure a sustainable dividend. And with what's left, we do buybacks. And so we've talked about how excess capital is earnings in store. You saw this quarter that we actually had some financial resource usage that came through and actually meant that despite keeping the buybacks relatively constant and having organic capital generation to be relatively constant, the CET1 ratio dropped a little bit as a function of increased usage organically showing up in RWA expansion.
因此，我们将资本用于支持有机和非有机增长，并确保可持续的股息。在此基础上，剩余资本用于回购。我们也提到过，超额资本其实就是储存的收益。你们看到，本季度我们动用了一些金融资源，即使回购规模和内生资本生成保持大致稳定，由于风险加权资产扩大带来的有机资本使用增加，CET1 比率仍出现小幅下降。
So we're doing what we want to do, but clearly, it is a big amount of excess, and that does mean that everything is on the table as it always is, and that includes potentially inorganic things.
所以我们正在按计划行事，但显然超额资本规模庞大，这意味着所有选项仍摆在桌面上，其中也包括潜在的非有机机会。
Now obviously, that needs to be done carefully. I think acquisitions have a high bar, both financially, strategically and importantly, in some cases, culturally. And we also need to think carefully about things that work outside the regulated perimeter might not work inside the regulated perimeter as well. We have learned some lessons. We don't want to overlearn those lessons. But in the end, sometimes we lean in a little more, sometimes lean in a little less, but we wouldn't be doing our jobs if we weren't thinking about it.
当然，这必须谨慎处理。我认为收购的门槛很高——财务上、战略上，甚至在某些情况下文化上都要求严格。我们还必须审慎评估，在监管范围外行之有效的做法，置于监管之内是否同样适用。我们已吸取了一些教训，也不想矫枉过正。归根结底，我们有时更积极，有时更保守，但若不去思考这些问题，我们就算不上称职。
I don't particularly think other than fundamentally whether things are permissible or not, that the regulatory environment right now, particularly shapes our thinking on that front.
我并不认为，除了某些事项在根本上是否被允许之外，当前的监管环境对我们在这方面的思考有特别大的影响。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
And Chris, just a broader point about regulations. I think it's very important that the regulators step back and kind of look at the big picture now, not just one picture, so nothing has happened yet. I think they should be looking at all these things. But if you look at SLR, G-SIFI, CCAR, Basel III, FSRT, the overlap, the duplication, I actually believe that you can make the system simpler, cheaper, more effective, more transparent and safer. And the things like Silicon Valley Bank and First Republic did not need to happen if you just modify some things and you can create more liquidity, more loans and a safer system. And that's really what they should be looking at, not just SLR. And so I'm hoping that over time, they do that.
Chris，就监管而言，我想提出一个更宏观的观点。我认为监管机构现在非常有必要退后一步，从大局出发，而不仅仅盯着某一个方面；目前实际上尚未采取任何措施。我认为他们应该把所有这些因素都纳入考量。如果你看看 SLR、G-SIFI、CCAR、巴塞尔 III、FSRT，它们之间存在重叠和重复。我确实相信，我们可以让体系变得更简洁、更低成本、更高效、更透明、更安全。像硅谷银行和第一共和银行这样的事件本来不必发生，只要适当调整某些规则，就能创造更多流动性、更多贷款，从而建立一个更安全的体系。这才是他们应该关注的，而不只是 SLR。我希望随着时间推移，他们能够做到这一点。
And then second thing that I would add to that, which I think is even maybe more important, is they should answer the question, what do they actually want in our public markets versus our private markets, et cetera. We've gone from 8,000 public companies, I'm talking about like 25 years ago to 4,000 today. That's happened overseas. Public markets overseas have gotten smaller and smaller. Obviously, I'm not against private credit. Private credit is growing.
我想补充的第二点，可能更为重要，那就是监管机构应当回答一个问题：他们究竟希望我们的公开市场与私募市场分别承担什么角色？大约 25 年前，美国有 8,000 家上市公司，如今只剩 4,000 家。海外市场也出现同样趋势，公开市场规模越来越小。当然，我并不反对私募信贷，私募信贷正在增长。
And how do you really want to structure this? And why is it happen? Is that a good thing for America? And so I just -- it is time that they take a step back. There's been -- I hear some time from some pundits that there's been relaxing of rules and regulations, absolutely not. There's been nothing but increasing them for the better part of 15 years. They should take a deep breath, step back, and look at the system and answer the question, how can we make it better and stronger for the economy and all involved.
那么，你们究竟想如何构建这一体系？这种变化为什么会发生？这对美国是好事吗？因此，我认为现在是他们退后一步的时候了。我听到一些评论家说监管规则有所放松——绝对没有！在过去十五年的大部分时间里，监管只是在不断收紧。他们应该深呼吸一下，退后一步，审视整个体系，并回答一个问题：我们如何才能让它对经济和各方都更好、更稳健？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
And maybe sort of gone a bit long here, but just to expand and go into a little bit of detail there. I will note that Vice Chair Bowman gave a speech on her vision having come into the new seat for ongoing work on regulation. And I think it's a speech that's pretty comprehensive and lays out some of what Jamie is saying in terms of like the to-do list. I think at the margin, we can do understand the desire to sort of knock some things off the to-do list that have been on it for a long time and clearly needs to be addressed like SLR. But at the same time that, that happens, the holistic review done properly across not only capital, but also liquidity, resolution, et cetera, is clearly quite important.
也许我说得有些冗长，但还是想稍作展开并补充一些细节。我注意到，美联储副主席 Bowman 发表了一次讲话，阐述了她在新职位上对监管工作的愿景。我认为这是一场内容相当全面的演讲，其中列出了一些 Jamie 提到的“待办事项”。我们当然理解，监管层希望先处理一些长期悬而未决且显然需要解决的问题，比如 SLR。但与此同时，在资本、流动性、处置机制等方面进行恰当的整体评估也至关重要。
More narrowly, in the near term, I think we continue to feel very strongly that if all the things that are out there, one of the worst is G-SIB, in the sense of both the original gold-plating, the sort of deep conceptual flaws in the framework itself, and the failure to recalibrate it for growth since it was put into effect.
更具体地说，在短期内，我们仍然强烈认为，在现有所有规定当中，最糟糕的之一就是 G-SIB 框架。其“金漆”附加要求、本身存在的深层概念缺陷，以及自实施以来未能根据行业增长进行重新校准，都令其问题尤为突出。
And I think one of the things that's maybe a little bit under discussed there is the extent to which it specifically creates strongest incentives for American banks to be strong and globally competitive. And that is seems to be the exact opposite of what we want. So that's really one of the ones that needs to get attacked pretty aggressively, I would say.
还有一点可能讨论得不够充分，那就是该框架在多大程度上削弱了美国银行保持强健并参与全球竞争的激励。这似乎与我们的目标恰好相反。因此，我认为这项规定确实需要被积极地着手解决。
Christopher Edward McGratty
克里斯托弗·爱德华·麦格拉蒂
I appreciate all the color. If I could ask kind of a follow-up. The inorganic comments. I'm interested in capital allocation between your businesses, where you think, if that were to present an opportunity where -- which businesses would most likely be the use of that capital?
感谢你们提供的详尽信息。我能否追问一下有关非有机增长的评论？我想了解在你们各业务板块之间的资本分配，如果出现机会，哪些业务最有可能使用这些资本？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
I mean we've talked about that a little bit over time. Obviously, we're not fundamentally capital constrained right now. So I mean in addition to the fact that capital isn't the only financial resource that we need to allocate, I would say the larger point is that any good franchise business that it makes sense from a risk perspective and clears the cost of equity is going to get done within reason, subject to obvious caveat. So...
我们之前多少探讨过这个问题。显然，我们目前并不存在根本性的资本约束。除了资本并非我们需要分配的唯一金融资源之外，我想强调的是，只要某项优质特许经营业务在风险角度上合理，且能够达到股本成本门槛，我们都会在可行范围内去做，当然这要受一些显而易见的保留条件限制。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Inorganic, it's a good discipline to always be looking. I would have high expectations that will be how we use a lot of capital. And I think it's a very big plus that we grow organically in every business we're in without having to stretch.
在非有机增长方面，持续寻找机会本身就是一种良好的纪律。我高度预期这将是我们大量使用资本的方式。我认为，我们在所涉足的每项业务中都能保持有机增长且无需勉强，这是一个巨大的优势。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Betsy Graseck from Morgan Stanley.
接下来，我们请摩根士丹利的贝茜·格雷塞克提问。
Betsy Lynn Graseck
贝茜·林恩·格雷塞克
So two questions. First, on the RWA utilization via organic as you described. I wanted to understand in wholesale lending, where you highlighted the CIB was a driver of much of this. Could you speak to the drivers of those drivers? In other words, is it private credit? Is it M\&A financing? Is it inventory? What are you seeing in the market here that you're delivering on that's raising that lending profile?
我有两个问题。首先，关于你们所描述的有机增长带来的风险加权资产利用率。我想了解，在你们指出由企业与投资银行（CIB）业务推动的批发贷款中，背后的推动因素是什么？换言之，是私募信贷、并购融资还是存货融资？你们在市场上看到了什么需求，从而提升了该贷款画像？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
It's all of the above, Betsy, because we are the Switzerland of financing. We do everything, and we saw a lot of activity come in late in the quarter.
贝茜，所有这些因素都有，因为我们是融资领域的“瑞士”，我们什么都做，而且我们在季度末看到了大量业务涌入。
Betsy Lynn Graseck
贝茜·林恩·格雷塞克
Okay. Great. All right. And then Jamie, you've -- there's been a lot of discussion around stablecoin. How stablecoin is going to be impacting banks. And I believe you have an opinion on this, would love to hear if you could highlight how JPM is thinking about utilizing, leveraging, competing with stablecoin, and how the JPMD deposit token feeds into all of this as well?
好的，明白。那么，Jamie，近期围绕稳定币对银行的影响有很多讨论。我知道您对此有见解，能否谈谈摩根大通如何考虑利用、借力或与稳定币竞争，以及 JPMD 存款代币在其中扮演的角色？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
So deposit token is effectively the same thing. You're moving money by token, you could pay interest. It's JPMorgan deposit. And stablecoins, we're going to be involved in both JPMorgan deposit coin and stablecoins to understand it, to be good at it.
存款代币实际上与稳定币相同——通过代币转移资金，可以支付利息，它是摩根大通的存款。而稳定币方面，我们将同时参与摩根大通存款代币和稳定币，以便理解并精通这一领域。
We don't know exactly -- I think they're real, but I don't know why you'd want a stablecoin as opposed to just a payment. And -- but I do think you have fintech, these guys are very smart. I'm trying to figure out a way to create bank accounts to get the payment systems and rewards programs. And we have to be cognizant of that. The way to be cognizant is to be involved. We're going to be in it and learning a lot and player.
我们尚不完全确定——我认为稳定币是真实存在的，但我不明白为什么人们会想要稳定币而不是直接使用支付。不过，确实有一些非常聪明的金融科技公司在尝试通过创设银行账户来切入支付体系和奖励计划，我们必须对此保持警觉。保持警觉的方法就是参与其中。我们会参与并深入学习，成为其中的玩家。
Betsy Lynn Graseck
贝茜·林恩·格雷塞克
Okay, super. And then separately on the topic of open banking. I think that's on hold right now with the CFPB, on hold right now. But just wanted to understand, does this hold period gave you an opportunity to change how you're pricing for your open banking and fintech relationships here?
好的，太好了。然后关于开放银行这个话题，我知道目前在消费者金融保护局（CFPB）那里被暂缓了。只是想了解，这段暂缓期是否让你们有机会重新调整开放银行和金融科技合作关系的定价方式？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
So this is very important. So forget pricing for a second, we are in favor of the customer. So we think the customer has the right to, if they want to share their information. What we asked people to do is, what are they -- do they actually know what's being shared? What is actually being shared? It should be everything. It should be what their customer wants. It should have a time limit because somebody of these things going on for years. It should not be remarketed or resold to third parties. And so we're kind of in favor of all that done properly.
这非常重要。先别谈定价，我们首先支持客户的权益。我们认为，如果客户想分享自己的信息，他们就有权这么做。我们要求相关机构明确：客户是否真正知道哪些信息被分享？到底分享了什么？分享范围应覆盖客户想要分享的一切，并且要设定时间限制，因为有些授权持续多年；信息不得再营销或转售给第三方。我们支持按照这些原则妥善实施。
And then the payment, it just -- it costs a lot of money to set up the APIs and stuff like that to run the system protection. So we just think it should be done and done right. And that's the main part. It's not like you can't do it.
至于支付方面，建立 API 及相关系统保护的成本很高。因此我们认为必须把事情做好、做到位，这才是关键，并不是说这件事无法完成。
The last thing is a liability shift. I mean I don't think JPMorgan should be responsible if you've given your bank passcodes to third parties who market and do a whole bunch of stuff with it and then you get scammed or fraud through them, they should be responsible. And we want real clarity about that.
最后一点是责任分配。如果你把银行密码交给第三方，他们利用密码进行营销并做各种操作，结果你因此遭受诈骗或欺诈，我不认为摩根大通应对此负责，责任应由他们承担。我们希望对此有明确界定。
And if you see today, a lot of these scams and frauds run through third-party social media and stuff like that, there should be a little more responsibility in their part. So we can all do a better job for the customer. That's why.
如今许多骗局和欺诈都是通过第三方社交媒体等渠道进行的，他们应该承担更多责任。这样，我们所有人才能为客户做得更好。这就是重点所在。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Steven Alexopoulos from TD Cowen.
接下来，我们将连线 TD Cowen 的 Steven Alexopoulos。
Steven A. Alexopoulos
史蒂文·亚历克索普洛斯
I wanted to start, Jeremy, going back to your comments on inorganic things being on the table in terms of use of excess capital. So when I look at the company, so you're the largest U.S. bank by assets, you're also the largest in terms of the data you see every day. And you may or may not have seen that Apple is looking at possibly, there's chatter, getting into the AI game more by looking at a company such as Perplexity.
首先，Jeremy，我想回到你关于动用过剩资本进行非有机投资的评论。就我观察，你们是美国资产规模最大的银行，同时也是每天处理数据量最大的机构。你可能注意到，也可能没注意到，有传言称苹果正考虑通过收购像 Perplexity 这样的公司，更深入地涉足 AI 领域。
Just thinking out loud here, would it make sense for JPMorgan to consider acquiring an LLM, right? The last 2 quarters of buybacks are about the last valuation round for Perplexity, right? I'm thinking of you guys, you could become LLM for the financial services industry. What are your thoughts on this?
我只是随便想想，摩根大通是否应该考虑收购一家大型语言模型公司？过去两个季度的回购金额大约等于 Perplexity 最近一轮估值。我在想，你们或许可以成为金融服务行业的 LLM 提供者。对此你们怎么看？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
We use LLMs and we're going to be agnostic about that, too. There's no reason for us to own one. At least we can't figure out why that would make sense. And I wouldn't -- we will use it, and we will obviously be important in using our data to help our customers.
我们确实在使用大型语言模型，但对此保持技术中立。我们没有理由非得自己拥有一家 LLM 公司，至少我们看不出那样做的意义。我们会继续使用 LLM，并且显然会利用自身数据能力更好地服务客户。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. And on the question of inorganic deployment, I would sort of blend my comments with Jamie's right? In the end, I'm just asserting that, of course, we need to look at inorganic opportunities. And of course, that's a question that comes up given our current excess capital position. But Jamie said clearly that he doesn't think that's particularly likely, or some of the reasons that you emphasized, it's not easy to imagine a deal that would actually make sense.
是的，关于非有机资本运用的问题，我的看法与 Jamie 一致。归根结底，我们当然需要关注潜在的收购机会，鉴于我们当前拥有大量超额资本，这个话题自然会被提及。但正如 Jamie 明确表示的那样，他认为这种机会并不太可能出现，而且正如你指出的原因，要找到真正有意义、可行的交易并不容易。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
We do a lot of small ones, by the way, which you've seen.
顺便提一下，我们做了很多规模较小的收购，你也见过。
Steven A. Alexopoulos
史蒂文·亚历克索普洛斯
Yes. Yes. Okay. And then going back, Jamie, to your answer to Betsy's question on the tokenized deposit. I get it, how that makes sense in terms of the customers that are inside your walled garden, but it doesn't help them much in terms of dealing with customers outside of your garden. What's holding up you guys and the other banks getting together to issue something joint, similar to what you've done with Zelle and prevent these stablecoin companies like Circle coming in and offering a more convenient solution to your customers?
是的，是的，好的。那么回到之前，Jamie，你对 Betsy 关于代币化存款的回答。我理解这对你们“围墙花园”内的客户很有意义，但对于要与花园外客户打交道的客户帮助不大。是什么阻碍了你们与其他银行合作发行类似 Zelle 的联合产品，从而阻止 Circle 等稳定币公司为你们的客户提供更便捷的解决方案？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
That's a great question. And we'll leave the remain as a question.
这是个好问题，我们就先把它留作问题吧。
Steven A. Alexopoulos
史蒂文·亚历克索普洛斯
Without an answer?
没有答案吗？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Well, I think you're raising a very important point about interoperability of stablecoins and deposits and movement of money, and what problem you're trying to solve, but you're raising a great points. You can assume we're thinking about all of that.
嗯，我认为你提出了一个关于稳定币与存款互操作性以及资金流动性的重要问题，还有你想要解决的核心问题，你的观点很精彩。你可以相信，我们正在考虑所有这些。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Ebrahim Poonawala from Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
接下来，我们将连线美国银行美林证券的易卜拉欣·侯赛因·普纳瓦拉。
Ebrahim Huseini Poonawala
易卜拉欣·侯赛因·普纳瓦拉
This almost sounds like a fintech and AI call. But maybe just switching gears, I think, Jamie, your comments in the press release, give us a sense like when we think about middle market businesses in the U.S., what's the state of play there? When we think about interest rates, tariffs, consumer spending slowing, should we be concerned in terms of credit quality outlook looking out 6, 9, 12 months? Just what's your take based on all the data that we all look at?
这听起来几乎像是一场金融科技与人工智能电话会。但换个话题，Jamie，你在新闻稿中的评论让我们对美国中端市场企业的现状有了一些感知。当我们考虑利率、关税以及消费者支出放缓时，展望未来6、9、12个月的信用质量前景，我们是否该担忧？基于大家所掌握的数据，你怎么看？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
You can ask the thing about the data, but very important, we love the middle market business. It drives a lot of business. We've built, I think 500 bank of the innovation economy, which is kind of new to us. I think of what Silicon Valley Bank used to do and things like that. We still have a huge addressable market in the middle market business. We provide not just lending, and that could be leveraged lending, direct lending, but payment services, custody services, asset management services, FX services. So we're going to grow that business, regardless of what we predict the environment is going to be in the next 6 to 9 months.
你可以问关于数据的问题，但有一点非常重要：我们非常看好中端市场业务，它带动了大量商机。我们已经打造了大约500家“创新经济银行”，这对我们来说还算新领域，让我想起过去硅谷银行所做的事情。中端市场业务仍拥有庞大的可服务市场。我们不仅提供放贷，包括杠杆贷款、直接贷款，还提供支付、托管、资产管理和外汇服务。不管我们对未来6到9个月的经济环境如何预测，我们都会继续扩展这项业务。
Ebrahim Huseini Poonawala
易卜拉欣·侯赛因·普纳瓦拉
Got it. And I guess just as a follow-on -- go ahead, Jeremy.
明白了。我想作为跟进提问——杰里米，请讲。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
No, go ahead, ask your follow-up.
没问题，你继续提后续问题。
Ebrahim Huseini Poonawala
易卜拉欣·侯赛因·普纳瓦拉
And I was just wondering in terms of your sense of just the state of play, the health of the balance sheets of these customers. And also if you can expand that into the consumer, any areas of stress from a credit quality perspective that you're beginning to get more concerned today versus 3 or 6 months ago?
我还想了解一下，在你们看来这些客户当前的经营状况及资产负债表健康度如何？如果再延伸到消费者层面，从信用质量角度看，是否有任何压力领域让你们相比三个月或六个月前更加担忧？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes, right. Okay. Because that's what I was going to try to clarify. I just wasn't sure if you were doing consumer wholesale or both. So let's do consumer quickly. I think -- we talk about this every quarter. It's obviously a very important question. We look at it very closely. It obviously matters a lot for us as a company. But we continue to struggle to see signs of weakness. We just -- the consumer basically seems to be fine.
是的，没错。好的。我原本想澄清这一点。我当时不确定你是在谈消费者业务、批发业务还是两者都谈。所以我们先快速说一下消费者。我们每个季度都会讨论这个问题，显然这非常重要，我们也一直密切关注，对公司也至关重要。但我们依旧难以发现任何疲软迹象——基本上，消费者状况良好。
Now a few things are true. Like if you look at indicators of stress, not surprisingly, you see a little bit more stress in the lower income bands than you see in the higher income bands. But that's always true. That's pretty much definitionally true. And nothing there is out of line with our expectations. Our delinquency rates are also in line with expectations. You saw that we kept our net charge-off guidance unchanged. So all that looks kind of fine. And to be honest, as we've said before, fundamentally, while there are nuances around the edges, consumer credit is primarily about labor markets. And in a world with 4.1% unemployment rate, it's just going to be hard, especially in our portfolio to see a lot of weakness.
有几点确实如此。例如，从压力指标来看，低收入群体的压力略高于高收入群体，这并不意外；事实上，这几乎是定义所决定的，也完全符合我们的预期。我们的逾期率同样符合预期，你们看到我们保持了净冲销率指引不变。因此整体表现不错。坦率地说，正如我们以前所说，尽管边缘存在细微差别，消费信贷的根本驱动是劳动力市场。在失业率仅为 4.1% 的环境下，尤其是在我们的资产组合中，要出现明显疲弱并不容易。
Now it is true that if you look at, not our data, but the government's data, I think I was looking at this the other day, like first half real consumer spending of this year versus second half of last year is down. Now it's still positive, it's still growing, but it's down. So it's kind of consistent with the sort of soft landing narrative, which is also consistent with the sort of the GDP outlook that our economists are publishing.
另外，如果查看政府数据——前几天我刚看过——今年上半年的实际消费者支出相较去年下半年有所下降。虽然仍为正增长，但增速放缓。这与“软着陆”的说法大体一致，也符合我们经济学家发布的 GDP 预期。
Our own data looked sort of in nominal terms on a cohort basis, actually shows spending up a little bit over the same period. So it's kind of the same narrative of things being fine with different signals pointing in slightly different directions, but nothing particularly concerning.
而我们按客户群以名义口径观察的自有数据显示，同期支出略有上升。总体叙事仍旧是形势稳健，只是不同信号方向略有差异，但没有任何特别令人担忧的情况。
Ebrahim Huseini Poonawala
易卜拉欣·侯赛因·普纳瓦拉
That was helpful. And would you say the same about commercial?
非常有帮助。对于企业业务，你也持相同观点吗？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
I mean, basically, yes, you see some idiosyncratic things here and there. And on the point of tariffs, I guess, obviously, you recall the slide that we did at Investor Day, kind of highlighting that different sectors are going to have different experiences as a function of their margins, their sensitivity to input cost, their amount of pricing power, their amount of leverage, and where the rules actually land. But people are obviously getting some time to adjust, and we're watching it very closely. So we'll see.
基本上，是的。不过在某些领域会出现一些零星的个案。至于关税，你可能记得我们在投资者日展示的幻灯片——不同板块会根据利润率、对投入成本敏感度、定价能力、杠杆水平以及最终政策落点的不同而呈现迥异表现。但市场显然获得了一定的调整时间，我们也在密切关注后续发展，所以拭目以待。
Operator
主持人
Our next question comes from John McDonald with Truist Securities.
我们的下一位提问者是 Truist 证券的 John McDonald。
John Eamon McDonald
约翰·伊蒙·麦克唐纳
Jeremy, a quick follow-up on the consumer credit, broader comments taken there. But in terms of the NPAs, the nonaccruals in consumers seem to have a bit of a jump. Is there something technical there? Maybe just talk to that.
Jeremy，就消费者信贷再追问一下，我理解你之前的宏观评论。但在不良资产（NPA）方面，消费者的不计息贷款似乎有所上升。这中间有没有什么技术性原因？能否谈谈？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. Thanks for that, John. I'm glad to get a chance to clarify this. There is something technical, which has to do with customers in the -- Home Lending customers in the L.A. area, using our forbearance availability as a result of the wildfires. So that is resulting in an
是的，谢谢你的提问，John。我很高兴有机会澄清这一点。这里确实存在技术性因素，涉及洛杉矶地区的住房贷款客户，他们因野火使用了我们的延期还款政策。这导致了
uptick in the nonperforming. But when you think about land value, and the insurance there, the actual loss expectation is de minimis, I would say. So...
不良贷款的上升。不过考虑到土地价值及保险保障，实际损失预期可以说微乎其微。所以……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
We always do that for customers when they have really difficult time.
当客户确实处于艰难时期，我们一向都会这样做。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Exactly. So that's what's driving that one.
没错，所以这就是造成该项指标变化的原因。
John Eamon McDonald
约翰·伊蒙·麦克唐纳
Okay. Great. And I wanted to ask for some more color on retail deposits. Maybe in the context of Marianne's presentation from Investor Day. Could you remind us of what's given you incremental confidence in seeing some improvement in deposit margin and kind of producing that mid- to upper-single-digit deposit growth that Marianne talked about?
好的，非常感谢。我想进一步了解零售存款情况，或许可以结合 Marianne 在投资者日的演示。能否提醒我们，是什么让你们对存款利差改善更有信心，并实现 Marianne 提到的中高个位数存款增长？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes, sure. So I think what you're referring to is a slide where Marianne talked about kind of the potential for 6% consumer deposit growth next year. And that's a nice number. And as you've written, that would produce some nice revenue consequences, all else being equal.
当然可以。我想你提到的是 Marianne 的那张幻灯片，上面说到明年消费者存款可能增长 6%。这是个很不错的数字。正如你所写的，如果其他条件不变，这将带来可观的收入效果。
The way I think about that number is to kind of build it up step by step. So you start with, in general, the consumer deposit base in the system has grown probably slightly above nominal GDP. I think that's been true for us recently is that as a result of our market position and our pricing choices, we've probably lost a little bit of share during the rate hiking cycle sort of in isolation from yield-seeking flows. With the yield-seeking flows having abated a little bit, that relative headwind is kind of behind us, or increasingly behind us. And you've got some core growth reasserting itself. You saw us call out the growth in net new accounts in Consumer checking this quarter, and that's one of the key drivers.
我对这一数字的思考是逐步拆解。首先，一般而言，系统内的消费者存款总量增速大概略高于名义 GDP。最近对我们来说也是如此；受市场地位和定价决策影响，在加息周期中，我们可能在非追逐收益资金以外的部分略微失去了一点份额。如今这类追逐收益的资金流已略有缓解，相对逆风已经或正在消退，核心增长重新显现。本季度我们提到消费者支票账户净新增账户的增长，这正是关键驱动因素之一。
And then as you know well, when you look at the franchise, we kind of have: number one, ongoing expansion; number two, seasoning of the old expansion; and number three, deepening in the core markets. So when you put all that together and you look at sort of the history of the growth macro environment, et cetera, that's how you get to that type of 6% number. Now obviously, things could change quite dramatically to produce a different number, among other things.
如你所知，放眼整个业务版图，我们有三点：其一，持续扩张；其二，既有扩张的成熟期效应；其三，在核心市场的深耕。当你把这些与历史增速和宏观环境结合，就能得出 6% 这样的数字。当然，若环境发生较大变化，结果也可能截然不同。
You'll recall that Marianne's slide also talked about a stress scenario with lower rates, which perhaps somewhat non-intuitively would produce actually higher growth as a result of even less yield-seeking flow and a higher consumer savings rate. But the flip side of that is also true, which is an unexpectedly high rate environment would probably lead to lower balance growth, all else equal in consumer. So we'd like to say, those are all else being equal type numbers, but all else is never equal.
你应该记得，Marianne 的幻灯片还提到了一种低利率压力情景，也许有些反直觉，但在收益追逐流更少且消费者储蓄率更高的情况下，增长反而会更高。反之亦然——若利率意外走高，则在其他条件相同的情况下，消费者余额增长可能放缓。因此，我们称这些数字是“其他条件不变”的场景，但现实中其他条件从不完全相同。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Mike Mayo with Wells Fargo.
接下来，我们请富国银行的 Mike Mayo 提问。
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
Jeremy, can you talk about why commercial loan growth was much stronger in the second quarter and any strength by geography?
Jeremy，你能否说明第二季度商业贷款增速大幅走强的原因？从地域分布看有哪些亮点？
And Jamie, can you address what regulators could do to potentially have banks lend more in the future, consistent with what the Treasury Secretary said is his goal.
另请 Jamie 说明，监管机构未来可以采取哪些措施促使银行更多放贷，以符合财政部长所设定的目标。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. Thanks, Mike. So on loan growth, as you know, it's useful to sort of break this down between what I would think of as like relationship lending that kind of drives the whole franchise, and that we sometimes look at maybe as an indicator of the health of the
是的，谢谢你，Mike。关于贷款增长，正如你所知，将其拆分来看很有帮助，其中我所谓的“关系型贷款”大体支撑着整个业务体系，我们有时也把它视作衡量企业部门健康状况的指标之一。
Corporate sector in some sense, and people like to look at it as a read across for the smaller banks, et cetera. That part of the franchise remains fine, but sort of muted as customers have access to capital markets and revolver utilization is sort of flattish in general.
在某种意义上，这反映了企业部门的情况，人们也乐于将其类比到中小银行等领域。该部分业务总体表现良好，但略显温和，因为客户可以直接进入资本市场，循环信贷的动用率整体保持平稳。
But as I noted, I think previously, and as you see coming through the IBP performance, there was just quite a bit of deal activity in the second half of the quarter, a lot of which is well known and public. And some of that is on our balance sheet, and we're very happy to have it there.
不过，正如我之前提到的，你们也能从 IBP 业绩中看到，季度后半段交易活动确实相当活跃，其中很多交易都是公开且广为人知的。这些交易有一部分落在我们的资产负债表上，我们对此感到非常满意。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
And to answer your other question, Mike. So some of the -- I'm going to give you some things that you can actually do. So I think you should do them and reduce risk in the system. I'm only going to talk about how they increase lending for a second.
Mike，关于你的另一个问题，我来回答一下。我将提出一些可以真正付诸实施的措施，我认为应该采取这些措施来降低系统性风险。下面我只谈它们如何促进放贷。
So G-SIFI inhibits, if you look at it, both a little bit of lending and a little bit of market making. LCR inhibits both because it's a very rigid way of looking at the bank balance sheet. It doesn't really give you credit for potential access to window and things like that. CCAR in some cases inhibits, people -- we talk about CCAR-ness, but there's a lot of CCAR-ness from small business loans and stuff like that, where people kind of hold that back a little bit because it creates too much volatility. And CCAR capital, the FSRT, the fundamental book.
如果你去看，G-SIFI 规则在一定程度上抑制了放贷和做市；LCR 也抑制两者，因为它以非常刚性的方式审视银行资产负债表，并未真正考虑贴现窗等潜在流动性来源；在某些情况下 CCAR 也有抑制作用——我们常说“CCAR-化”，小企业贷款等领域就存在大量 CCAR-化现象，因为这会带来过高的波动，导致机构有所保留；再加上 CCAR 资本、FSRT 基础账簿等要求。
And when you look at all these things, I think you can create more lending, more liquidity, more flexibility and reduce the risk in the system. And also just CET, just capital usage, et cetera. So -- and reducing the risk in the system. I think we also make it friendlier for community banks, which we do want to do. And so if you look at like total loan to deposits, they used to be 100%, they're now 70%, okay? And that's a huge difference that took place over 10 or 15 years. And can you get that back to 85% and have the banking system be just safe and sound? Absolutely.
综合来看，通过调整上述规定，我们完全可以实现更多放贷、更多流动性、更大灵活性，并降低系统风险，同时优化 CET 等资本使用。这样也能让监管环境对社区银行更友好，这是我们乐于看到的。再看贷款总额与存款的比例，以前是 100%，现在只有 70%，这是过去 10 到 15 年发生的巨大变化。能否把它恢复到 85%，同时保持银行体系的安全稳健？当然可以。
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
You didn't mention the cost to make a loan. Is there a potential for streamlining there?
你没有提到贷款成本。是否有可能在这方面进行简化？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Yes, and I'd put securitization in that category. We need a more active securitization market and all these things can reduce the actual cost of making loan. I pointed out in the past that mortgages probably cost 30 or 40 or 50 basis points more because of excessive securitization, origination and servicing requirements. Those could be changed and would dramatically help mortgages, particularly for low-income individuals. And we've just have failed to do it for 10 years, and it wouldn't create any additional risk. And we can show you data that shows that.
没错，我会把资产证券化归入这一范畴。我们需要一个更活跃的证券化市场，这些举措都能降低实际贷款成本。我过去指出，抵押贷款的成本可能因过度的证券化、发放和服务要求而高出 30、40、50 个基点。这些规定完全可以调整，这将极大有利于按揭贷款，尤其是对低收入群体。过去 10 年我们一直未能做到这一点，而这么做不会增加任何额外风险，我们手上有数据可以证明这一点。
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
And last one, when you say inorganic growth, would you buy a private credit firm? Is that something you can at least consider?
最后一个问题，当你提到非有机增长时，你们会考虑收购一家私募信贷公司吗？至少会考虑这种可能性吗？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
I would say it's not high on my list because we can do it ourselves and buying people and comp plans. And I also think you may have seen peak private credit a little bit. I don't know that. But we already do it. So if it was the right people at the right price, then I'm sure we should look at it. I think, Mike, you should always be open-minded when people come to you with something you hadn't thought about before. And you just get smarter by looking at these things.
我会说这并不是我的首选，因为我们自己就能做，而且收购团队及制定薪酬方案较为复杂。我也觉得私募信贷或许已经稍显“高峰”。我并不确定，但我们本来就在做这项业务。如果遇到合适的人选与合适的价格，我们当然会考虑。我想，Mike，当有人提出你从未想过的方案时，你应保持开放心态——研究这些机会能让你更聪明。
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
Actually, I can't leave on that comment...
实际上，我不能就此结束……
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
\[indiscernible]
【听不清】
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
What?
什么？
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
Peak private credit, I can't leave on those three words. What do you mean by peak private credit?
“私募信贷高峰”——我无法仅听到这三个词就结束。你所谓的私募信贷高峰是什么意思？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Well, I've mentioned that credit spreads are very low. It's grown dramatically over time, and you have to pay up a lot for it. And I'm not saying it's not going to grow some more, but I just -- I would have a slight reluctance depending on who it was. But you might -- your bankers might come to us with something tomorrow that we just hadn't thought about that is a complete natural fit for us, natural fit being product and people and culture.
嗯，我提到过目前信用利差非常低，私募信贷规模这些年快速扩张，且为此需要付出高额溢价。我并不是说它不会继续增长，但视对象而定，我会有些保留。不过，你们的银行家也许明天就会带来一个我们从未想过、却在产品、人才和文化方面与我们完全契合的机会。
Michael Lawrence Mayo
迈克尔·劳伦斯·梅奥
Sorry, Jeremy?
抱歉，Jeremy？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
No, I was literally going to say what Jamie just said, so we're good.
没事，我本来正要说与 Jamie 完全相同的话，所以一切都好。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Erika Najarian with UBS.
接下来，我们请瑞银的 Erika Najarian 提问。
Erika Najarian
埃丽卡·纳贾里安
Jamie and Jeremy, you've talked about simplifying the regulatory construct. And it seems like based on the progress so far, we'll mostly get there, particularly with Basel III endgame and G-SIB, which impacts you so much. And to that end, if we do get a more simplified regulatory construct that addresses both the capital and liquidity constraints, does that move up JPMorgan's natural ROTCE? You talked about 17% through the cycle a lot. Obviously, perhaps we would optimize the denominator. Why wouldn't that be additive to your natural ROTCE? Or does this get passed back on to your clients in terms of pricing?
Jamie 和 Jeremy，你们谈到要简化监管框架。到目前为止的进展显示，我们基本能做到这一点，尤其是在对你们影响巨大的 Basel III 终局规则和 G-SIB 方面。如果我们真的获得一个同时解决资本与流动性约束的更简化监管框架，是否会提高摩根大通的自然 ROTCE？你们经常提到在整个周期内达到 17%。显然，我们也许能优化分母。为什么这不会提升你们的自然 ROTCE？还是说这部分收益会通过定价让利给客户？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
In a competitive world, it is irrational to thing that -- and when it applies to all the competitors that everyone is just going to make a lot more money to keep it as opposed to compete in the marketplace. Hopefully, we'll still have a good competitive position relative to everybody else. But no, I don't think you should automatically say it's going to increase your returns. Remember, Jeff Bezos says, your margin is my opportunity. That would be a huge opportunity for fintech, private credit, alternative players, et cetera. So you have to be a little careful to think that would happen. I think it's a good thing for the system, though.
在竞争激烈的市场里，如果同样的规定适用于所有竞争对手，大家并不会选择保持高盈利而不去竞争。因此，我不认为可以自动得出结论说这会提升我们的回报。记住 Jeff Bezos 说过，“你的利润率就是我的机会”，这将给金融科技、私募信贷和另类机构带来巨大机遇。所以认为回报一定会提高要谨慎。我仍认为这对整个体系是好事。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Exactly. And as we always said, Erika, right, like the market is very competitive, and the returns are high. And you know this, but I would just refer you to the slide that I delivered at Investor Day about how in some cases, it makes all else equal, compared to buying back shares at these prices, doing healthy, well-underwritten, compelling franchise business with a 14% return, we're definitely supposed to do that actually. And if we do a lot of that, it will dilute down the weighted average ROTCE of the company in ways that are nonetheless clearly accretive to shareholders. So...
正是如此，Erika。市场竞争激烈，当前回报已不低。正如我在投资者日的幻灯片中展示的，与在当前价格回购股票相比，在一些情况下，如果能以 14% 的回报率开展健康、风控良好的核心业务，我们理应去做。若我们大规模开展此类业务，公司的加权平均 ROTCE 可能被稀释，但对股东仍然是增值的。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
And Jeremy showed you a little thing about business units that earn high returns to low returns. Now they should do a low return ones because they fit hand in glove with other stuff, if you didn't do, you might lose the other. But there are some businesses out there with very high returns. That we just -- we deploy capital by adding bankers or branches, or products, not directly by deploying capital. So just think of branches, that does our private bank or things like that.
Jeremy 展示过各业务单元回报高低的差异。有些回报较低的业务仍需开展，因为它们与其他业务互补；如果不做，可能连带失去其他业务。但也存在回报非常高的业务。我们通常通过增聘银行家、增设网点或推出产品来投放资本，而非直接砸钱。例如增设网点就能推动私人银行等业务的发展。
Erika Najarian
埃丽卡·纳贾里安
Yes, for sure. And I think that's a big discussion point with investors in terms of talking about actually the EPS gains rather than just ROTCE improvement.
当然，没错。我认为投资者讨论的重点在于每股收益的实际提升，而不仅仅是 ROTCE 的改善。
And the second question I had is you mentioned, and clearly, we saw it in the numbers, a late in the quarter pickup in activity levels. And I'm wondering as we think about sentiment and what this means for the second half, is it -- does activity levels pick up because it felt like we were taking extreme outcomes from tariff policy off the table? Is it the tax bill certainty? I guess I'm just wondering, has some of the issues that prevented activity levels, or really stunted it in April and early May, have those fully been taken out of your clients thinking as we think about the second half of the year and activity levels continuing from here?
我的第二个问题是，正如你们提到且数据也清晰显示，季度末的活动水平有所提升。展望下半年，这种回升是否因为市场认为极端的关税政策结果已被排除？还是税收法案的不确定性消除？换言之，那些在四月和五月初抑制或阻碍活动水平的因素，是否已完全从客户的考虑中消失，使得活动水平得以在下半年继续保持？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Jeremy, you might want to -- I'll just answer your question by saying, honestly, we don't know. And you've seen how rapidly pipelines can grow and shrink. And so that lesson we've learned over and over, it may stay wide open for 1.5 years. Something may happen geopolitically that all of a sudden that pipeline slows a little bit. And so I'm always a little cautious to guess what that's going to be. But if it continues this way, yes, you're going to have really active markets.
Jeremy，你或许想补充——我先回答，坦率地说，我们并不确定。你们都见过业务管线增长与收缩的速度有多快；我们多次吸取过这种教训，它可能保持畅通一年半，但地缘政治事件也可能突然让管线放缓。因此我对未来总保持谨慎预测。不过，如果当前趋势持续，市场确实会非常活跃。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. And my version of that, Erika, I would be to say that you talked about certain of the tail risk getting taken completely off the table, and that's clearly not true, right? All the tail risks are all still there quite prominently. And in many cases, in the daily news flow, maybe at the margin, the tails are a little bit less fat right now.
是的，Erika，我的看法是，你提到某些尾部风险已被完全排除，这显然不准确。所有尾部风险依旧存在，并且仍相当突出。或许在每日新闻里，这些尾部的概率边际上略有收窄，但风险仍在。
I think it's also true that in terms of our -- what the things that we've said about our Investment Banking pipeline have been consistently quite cautious. And at a certain point, when you have the type of outperformance that you have this quarter, starts to make your cautiousness, seem less credible. So we wanted to take a hard look at ourselves and say, what do we really think. And it's like, yes, the sentiment is better. But as Jamie says, like that can change overnight, and there are a lot of risks.
此外，我们一直对投行业务管线持相当谨慎的态度。但当本季度表现如此突出时，这种谨慎似乎就不那么站得住脚了。因此我们必须深刻反思：我们到底怎么看？答案是，市场情绪确实更好，可正如 Jamie 所言，这种情绪可能一夜间逆转，风险仍然众多。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
I do think that extending the tax bill for business to know what their taxes are going to be is a positive going forward. And that does reduce the risk that the bill didn't get done.
我认为，延长税收法案以便企业明确未来税负是一件利好之事，这也降低了法案无法通过的风险。
I also think when it comes to tariffs, I think the initial Liberation Day, now there's more talk as more things getting done, a couple have been announced, a couple have been delayed, that reduces that risk a little bit. And hopefully, they'll get done. So there's still risk out there, but I am hopeful that some of these frameworks are completed soon, at least before August 1.
在关税方面，最初的“解放日”后，如今外界讨论更多，部分措施已公布，部分被推迟，这些都稍微降低了风险。希望相关框架能够落地。我仍然看到风险，但也希望其中一些框架能尽快完成，至少在8月1日前。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Jim Mitchell with Seaport Global Securities.
接下来，我们将连线 Seaport Global Securities 的 Jim Mitchell。
James Francis Mitchell
詹姆斯·弗朗西斯·米切尔
Maybe just on, Jeremy, if I look at your 10-Q and 10-K rate sensitivity disclosures, it looks like you guys have done a lot to reduce your asset sensitivity to the short end of the curve. So can you talk about what you've been doing to change the positioning of the balance sheet, whether extending duration or hedges? And is there more you can do to desensitize the balance sheet before rate cuts begin to kick in as, I guess, the markets expect later this year?
Jeremy，我想问一下：从你们的 10-Q 和 10-K 利率敏感性披露来看，你们似乎已大幅降低了资产对曲线短端的敏感度。能否谈谈你们通过延长久期或对冲等方式调整资产负债表头寸的做法？在市场预计今年稍晚开始降息之前，你们是否还能进一步降低资产负债表的利率敏感性？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Before he goes on, look, what the market expects almost never happens.
在他回答之前，我想说：市场的预期几乎从未照进现实。
James Francis Mitchell
詹姆斯·弗朗西斯·米切尔
Fair enough.
说得也是。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
All right. So it's a good question, Jim. But yes, as Jamie points out, just remember that to the extent that the market is sufficient, which maybe it's not, but you can't really hedge ahead of cuts that are already priced in, right? So that's what I'm saying out loud.
好的，Jim，这是个好问题。但正如 Jamie 指出的那样，请记住：只要市场定价充分——虽然未必如此——你就无法在已计入的降息之前真正做对冲，我只是把这点说清楚。
But I mean you can decrease volatility, but it's just a question of now or later. But having said that, on the question of decreasing volatility, we did, in fact, add some duration this quarter with the usual mix of instruments and strategies, but primarily in the front end of the yield curve, which was designed to essentially balance out the tails a little bit so that we were a little bit less exposed to a classic recessionary type scenario with much lower rates in exchange for accepting a little bit less good outcomes in like higher rate scenarios, at least narrowly through the lens of NII.
当然，你可以降低波动性，但只是时间早晚的问题。话虽如此，为了降低波动，我们本季度确实通过常用的工具和策略组合增加了一些久期，主要集中在收益率曲线前端，目的在于平衡尾部风险，使我们在典型衰退情景下利率大幅走低时的敞口更小，同时在利率走高情景下（至少从净利息收入的角度）愿意接受略低的收益。
准备着降息。
As we've talked about a little bit over time, though, I like the way you framed it in terms of like having the capacity. And I think the way to think about it there is that in general, it's almost impossible to get your assets -- for a bank like us, it's almost impossible to get your asset sensitivity, your actual asset sensitivity down to 0, because you wind up constrained by other things. So we're in the corridor, and we're okay with where we are right now.
正如我们不时讨论的那样，我喜欢你提到“保留能力”的说法。总体而言，对于我们这样的银行来说，几乎不可能把实际资产敏感度降到零，因为会受到其他因素的约束。因此我们目前处于目标区间内，对当前位置感到满意。
James Francis Mitchell
詹姆斯·弗朗西斯·米切尔
Okay. And maybe just one more on the regulatory front. I think regulators looked at reducing the SLR as a way to encourage banks, or open up an avenue to expand your balance sheet into lower-risk assets. Do you see that -- is it really just a supply issue? Or how do you think about the demand/supply dynamic? And is there really opportunities for you to grow? I would imagine, I guess, with an SLR not being constrained, maybe it's better return in lower-margin areas? Just your thoughts.
好的。也许在监管方面再问一个问题。我认为监管机构把降低 SLR 视作鼓励银行、或为其向低风险资产扩张资产负债表开辟途径的办法。您怎么看——这仅仅是供给问题吗？您如何看待供需动态？是否真的存在增长机会？我想，如果 SLR 不受限制，在低利润率领域或许能获得更好回报？请谈谈您的想法。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. It's a good question. You may recall, I actually got a version of this question at Investor Day, so I'll more or less repeat my answer here, which is that as we know, fixing SLR has been on the list for a long time. It behaved very much not the way it was designed in the moment of big QE when it became binding and it had bad impacts on the system. It's the opposite of what we want from these backstop measures. And so we don't want regulators to need to make unusual corrections amid crises. It's just not the right way to run the railroad.
是的，这是个好问题。您可能记得，在投资者日我曾被问到类似的问题，因此我在这里大致重复一下我的回答：众所周知，修订 SLR 已列入议程已久。在大规模量化宽松时期，SLR 的实际表现与最初设计大相径庭，当其成为约束时对体系产生了负面影响，这与我们对这些最后防线措施的期望完全相反。因此，我们不希望监管者在危机期间被迫进行非常规调整——那并不是治理体系的正确方式。
I think everyone has agreed on that for a long time. And in that context, it's been sort of disappointing that something as obvious as this has taken as long as this to get fixed. But it's a good sign that it's now out there, and we certainly support the proposal. There are some nuances that comment have been requested, but at a high level, it's a good proposal. It's the right thing to do. And it's the right thing to do from the perspective of the resilience of the system for the next time that we've got that type of expansion in the size of the system that could make it binding in the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
长期以来，大家都认可这一点。在这种背景下，如此显而易见的问题却拖延至今才得以解决，多少令人失望。好消息是，现在终于有了提案，我们当然支持。虽然仍需就一些细节征求意见，但从宏观层面看，这是一个好提案，也是正确之举；从提升体系韧性的角度看，当系统规模再度大幅扩张、可能以错误方式令 SLR 产生约束时，这么做至关重要。
But yes, as you noted, and as we've said, we're not really bound by it. I think other actors in the market may be a little bit more bound by it. There are also some nuances about impact on portfolio activity, which I would expect to be very small, versus impact on low-risk intermediation in the market-making businesses, which is maybe where you would hope to see the effect. So it's a good thing. Hopefully, it will help. Obviously, it's pretty fully priced in at this point. So I don't think you're going to see a big pop one way or the other as a function of it's eventually being finalized because I think everyone is assuming it will go in roughly in its current form.
不过，正如您所指出，也如我们所说，我们实际上并未受到 SLR 的真正约束。我认为市场中的其他参与者可能更受其限制。关于其对投资组合活动的影响也有一些细微差别，我预计非常有限；而对市场做市业务中低风险中介活动的影响，或许才是人们希望看到的效果。因此这是一件好事，希望能发挥作用。当然，眼下市场已基本反映这一变化，因此我认为等最终规则落地时，不会出现大的波动，因为大家都认为它大体会按当前形式实施。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
And I'm like a broken record. It's not SLR, it's LCR, it's G-SIFI, it's CCAR, it's Basel IV, the gold-plating. You really got to step back and look at all of them, and how you use the discount window, et cetera. And even how you measure liquidity, which is different in one measure than it is in resolution recovery. They should look at all of that. If they really want to fix the system.
我要像卡带机一样反复强调：问题不仅在于 SLR，还在于 LCR、G-SIFI、CCAR、巴塞尔 IV 及其“镀金”要求。必须退后一步，整体审视这些规定，以及贴现窗口的使用方式等等。甚至流动性的衡量标准在不同框架（例如正常监管与处置恢复）中也并不一致。如果他们真的想修复体系，就应全面检视这些要素。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Ken Udsen (sic) \[Ken Usdin] from Autonomous.
接下来，我们连线 Autonomous 的 Ken Udsen（实为 Ken Usdin）。
Kenneth Michael Usdin
肯尼斯·迈克尔·尤斯丁
First question is I just wanted to ask you about the recent Sapphire price changes and just what you're seeing in terms of initial response, and just how that fits in strategically with the competitive landscape on Card and your growth opportunity?
我的第一个问题想请教关于近期 Sapphire 卡年费调整——你们目前观察到的市场初步反应如何？此外，从战略角度看，这一调整如何契合信用卡竞争格局及你们的增长机会？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes, sure. So let me dispense with the question on how it's going...
好的，当然。让我先回答“进展如何”这个问题……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
So far.
到目前为止，一切顺利。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Going fine. We're happy. In terms of strategic aspects of this and the competitive landscape, I think the way we think about this is as a normal course refresh of one of our important products in the way that all of our products get refreshed periodically. Obviously, this is a relatively high-profile product. Many of us have the Card. We see the ads everywhere. So it sort of punches above its weight in that respect in terms of visibility.
运行良好，我们对此感到满意。就战略层面和竞争格局而言，我们把这看作是对一款重要产品的例行升级——正如我们会定期升级所有产品一样。显然，这是一张知名度较高的卡；我们很多人自己都在使用，也能在各处看到广告，因此在曝光度方面可谓“超规格”亮相。
In terms of the competitive landscape, I think the thing that we feel really great about is the dramatic increase in the customer value proposition associated with the Card. And in particular, one of the things that we look at is the ratio of the customer value to the annual fee, which is clearly market leading at this point. So...
就竞争格局而言，让我们尤为满意的是此卡的客户价值主张显著提升。尤其值得一提的是，我们关注客户价值与年费之比——目前这一指标显然处于市场领先地位。所以……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
I've got a lot of comments that people — from friends and my kids and stuff like that, that "Man, you're going to raise the Card, but you have to keep it for the LaGuardia lounge. That's a value added."
我收到很多反馈——来自朋友、孩子之类的——他们说：“哇，你们把年费调高了，但为了拉瓜迪亚机场的贵宾休息室，还是得继续持有这张卡，真是物超所值。”
Jeremy Barnum
And then some, there's a lot of value added...
此外，还有很多附加价值……
James Dimon
Stuff, yes, exactly.
没错，正是如此。
Jeremy Barnum
Yes. Yes. So yes, and obviously, I mean, we're not going to talk too much about competitors. But as you know, the Card space is very competitive and very dynamic. So this is -- we exist in a competitive landscape, and this is our best foot forward on this product at this moment in time.
是的，是的。总之，我们显然不会过多评论竞争对手。但正如你所知，信用卡领域竞争激烈且变化迅速。我们身处这样的竞争环境，而这次升级是目前为止我们在该产品上的最佳呈现。
Kenneth Michael Usdin
Got it. It is a quite nice lounge. On the trading side, I'm just wondering how much the strong results this quarter, the quarter changed a lot from April to June. And I'm just wondering how much do you think that was environmental? Has it calmed down at all? And also how much is just your ability to kind of use the balance sheet to boost results also, could that make it more sustainable regardless of what the environment is doing?
明白了。那个休息室确实很不错。关于交易业务，我想了解本季度强劲业绩的成因——从四月到六月变化很大。您认为这在多大程度上是外部环境所致？现在是否已经平静？此外，利用资产负债表来提升业绩的能力在其中占多大比重？这是否意味着无论环境如何都能让表现更可持续？
Jeremy Barnum
It's a good question. Honestly, I think it's kind of all of the above, basically. No question that the tone shifted. Obviously, it shifted in Investment Banking. I think I personally was a little bit surprised by the resilience of the Markets revenues in the second half of the quarter because I was sort of expecting a little bit of an offset between the two.
这是个好问题。坦率地说，答案基本是“以上皆是”。毫无疑问，市场基调发生了变化，尤其是在投行业务。我个人对本季度后半段市场业务收入的韧性有些惊讶，因为原本预期两者之间会相互抵消一些。
James Dimon
I was not surprised.
我并不感到意外。
Jeremy Barnum
Okay, there you have it. But it's not like I thought it would do badly, but it sort of did quite well in the volatility in the first half of the quarter and then it got quiet. But despite that, we still did nicely. And I think the point actually, sort of to your question is that, yes, we are seeing opportunities to deploy capital and other resources. And yes, maybe at the margin, that does contribute a little bit to durability.
好的，就是这样。不过我并没有预计它会表现糟糕；事实上，在本季度前半段的波动中表现不错，随后市场趋于平静。尽管如此，我们依然取得了良好成绩。回到你的问题，确实，我们正看到部署资本和其他资源的机会，在边际上这或许有助于业绩的持续性。
We've talked over time about the Markets revenues and the dramatic increase. I mean, obviously, 2019 is a long time ago at this point, and we expect those revenues to grow with GDP anyway. But we worried a lot in certain moments about the revenues dropping back to some old run rate. And then we kind of stopped worrying about that. And now of course, they've gone up to new highs, so maybe we should be worried again.
我们多次谈到市场业务收入的大幅增长。显然，2019 年距今已久，我们原本就预期该收入将随 GDP 增长。然而，在某些时刻我们曾担心收入会回落到过去的水平，后来又不再担心。如今它们创下新高，也许我们又该开始担心了。
But the thing I'd like to remind myself of to your point, is that while the revenues have gone up a lot, the resource usage has also gone up a lot. So we are deploying a lot of capital and all the resources in this business, and we're earning good returns on it. But the revenue growth is not coming for free. So it's us running the place, basically.
不过，回应你的观点，我想提醒自己：收入大幅增长的同时，资源使用也大幅增加。我们在这项业务中投入了大量资本和各类资源，并获得了不错的回报。但收入增长并非无成本而来——归根结底，这是我们经营的成果。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Matt O'Connor with Deutsche Bank.
接下来我们连线德意志银行的 Matt O'Connor。
Matthew Derek O'Connor
Some regional banks have pointed to...
一些地区性银行指出……
Jeremy Barnum
Matt, you've got some major static on the line. I don't know if we're going to be able to hear you. Just give it a shot. Give it a shot.
Matt，你的线路杂音很大。我不确定我们能否听清。尽量说吧，试一试。
Matthew Derek O'Connor
Can you hear me better now?
你们现在能听清我说话吗？
Jeremy Barnum
Not really, but let's try.
还是听得不太清，但我们先试试看。
Matthew Derek O'Connor
I just wanted to ask about any pressure from Commercial and Corporate customers to try to offset the tariff impact from regional banks have pointed to deposit pricing pressure on the commercial side, and if you're seeing any signs of that or more broadly speaking?
我想询问一下，来自商业和企业客户是否有任何压力，试图抵消关税影响——一些地区性银行提到商业存款端的定价压力；你们是否也看到这方面或更广泛的迹象？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
I think if I heard the question correctly, you were asking...
如果我没有听错问题，你想要询问的是……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
What's the tariff pressure with pressure on loans or debt. The answer is no.
关税压力是否导致贷款或债务压力？答案是否定的。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
The answer is no. Yes. I wish we could say more about it, but we think the answer is no.
答案是否定的。是的。我希望能提供更多信息，但我们认为答案是否定的。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
No, I mean. There's always pressure in some of those.
不，我的意思是，这些方面总是存在某种压力。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
It's a competitive market, right? There is ongoing -- our deposits are very, very competitive and there are always pricing conversations as there should be. Hard to know in any given moment what's driving it, but I haven't heard anything to support a tariff-linked narrative.
市场很有竞争性，对吧？情况一直如此——我们的存款业务非常具有竞争力，定价谈判也一直存在，这是正常的。很难立即判断背后驱动因素是什么，但我没有听到任何证据支持关税相关的说法。
Operator
主持人
Next, we will go to the line of Glenn Schorr with Evercore.
接下来我们连线埃弗科的 Glenn Schorr。
Glenn Paul Schorr
格伦·保罗·舒尔
Just two quick follow-ups. On the conversation about the noticeably upbeat robust pipelines. I know we've been here before and markets can give us and take it away. But there is a time value in there, meaning corporates, and more importantly sponsors, need to get stuff done. There is a ton of dry powder. So I'm curious if that -- if there's a higher level of confidence, meaning if the market doesn't take from us, is it really happening this time? We've been kind of waiting for these pipelines to come through in fuller force for a couple of years now. Does it -- is it feel more doable as long as the market doesn't take the rug out from under us?
我有两个简短的跟进问题，关于目前明显乐观且强劲的项目储备。我们以前也经历过这种情况，市场可以赐予也可以收回机会。但这里存在时间价值，也就是说企业，尤其是赞助商，需要把事情推进。市场上有大量“干火药”。所以我想知道，这是否代表更高的信心：如果市场不收回机会，这次真的会发生吗？过去几年我们一直在等待这些项目储备全面落地。只要市场不突然“抽走地毯”，这是否感觉更可行？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
I think it separate sponsor-owned companies from IPOs. There are companies going public. They're in the pipeline. They want to go public, et cetera. Sponsors are still, at least from what I can tell, anecdotally still reluctant to use the public markets. There may obviously be maybe more of it, but it hasn't been a mount of stuff coming out.
我认为应该将赞助商持有的公司与 IPO 区分开来看。有一些公司正准备上市，它们在管线中，确实希望上市。就我所知，从一些轶事来看，赞助商仍然不太愿意利用公开市场。当然，未来可能会多一些，但目前并没有大量项目涌现。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. I think that's right in the IPO space, at least for now. But I have heard some things to support some elements of your narrative, Glenn, to the effect of that there is pressure to kind of recycle capital and get things done. And yes, sure, after the initial shock of the tariff policy changes, everyone kind of went on hold. But as we've noted in our comments a few times today, at a certain moment, you just have to move on with life. And it does feel like some of that is happening just because you can't delay forever.
是的，我认为在 IPO 领域目前确实如此。不过，Glenn，我也听到一些信息支持你提到的某些观点，例如存在回笼资金并完成交易的压力。的确，在关税政策变化带来的最初冲击后，大家都暂时按下暂停键。但正如我们今天多次提到的，到某个时点，人们必须继续前行。看起来确实有些进展正在发生，因为事情不能永远拖延。
大量新的上市公司。
Glenn Paul Schorr
格伦·保罗·舒尔
I hear you. The follow-up on the capital conversation. Obviously, impressive to see big returns on even higher capital basis. But there's more to come. And I think trend is your friend on D Reg. So the question is, you keep making a lot of money, your capital base keeps rising. You've talked about arresting the growth of CET1 in the past. But I guess my blunt question is, is there any valuation limitation towards that arresting of CET1?
我明白了。关于资本问题，我想进一步跟进。显然，在更高资本基数上还能取得可观回报令人印象深刻，但未来还有更多空间。我认为监管放松的趋势对你们有利。那么问题是，你们持续赚取大量利润，资本基数不断上升；你们过去曾提到要遏制 CET1 的增长。但我直接想问的是，遏制 CET1 增长是否会受到估值方面的任何限制？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Okay. I want to say a couple of things, and then I want to clarify an aspect of your question, Glenn.
好的，我想先说几点，然后澄清一下你问题中的一个方面，格伦。
So first, on arresting the growth, what I actually said, not to nitpick on you, but I said arresting the growth of excess capital, which I agree is reasonable to interpret as keeping a roughly constant CET1. As it happens this quarter, you see the CET1 actually dropping about 40 basis points, and that was in no small part a function of significant late-quarter growth in RWA usage, which we were frankly like very happy to see, in fact. So that's all to the good in some sense.
首先，关于“遏制增长”，我之前讲的是“遏制超额资本的增长”，严格来说可解释为保持 CET1 大致稳定。本季度你看到我们的 CET1 实际下降了约40个基点，其中很大一部分原因是季度末风险加权资产大幅增加，坦率地说，我们对此非常高兴。从某种意义上讲，这是好事。
Now the other part of your question, can you just repeat it? I want to make sure I understand it.
至于你问题的另一部分，能否再重复一遍？我想确认自己理解正确。
Glenn Paul Schorr
格伦·保罗·舒尔
I'm just curious if there's a valuation limitation the thinking? Meaning as valuation goes up, are you just going to -- do you keep buying back stock...
我只是想了解一下是否存在估值方面的限制？也就是说，随着估值上升，你们是否仍会继续……是否还会持续回购股票……
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
So meaning would we go back to a moment of reducing buybacks and starting to build again if the stock gets even more expensive? I mean, I think that's the question for the boss. But I don't know, I guess we always reserve the right to do whatever we want on buybacks basically.
也就是说，如果股价更高，我们会否再次减少回购、重新累积资本？我想这要由老板来定。但我想说，我们始终保留在回购方面做出任何决定的权利。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Reserve the right. We're not going to tell you. But obviously, the stock pricing -- I mean I don't like buying back the stock at almost 3x tangible book. No one is going to convince me that's a brilliant thing to do, but it is wise to use our balance sheet for customers, which we're doing. And we can maybe possibly do more. And it is probably wise to not increase the excess capital anymore since we have plenty, and it's going to be going up.
保留权利，我们不会提前告诉你。但显然，当前股价——我并不喜欢在接近账面净值三倍的水平回购股票，没有人能说服我这非常高明。不过，利用资产负债表为客户服务是明智之举，我们正在这么做，也许还能做得更多。考虑到我们手上已有充足超额资本，且还会继续攀升，或许不再进一步增加它才是明智的。
But look, I'm completely convinced if you take out of your mindset 12 months. We will use the capital wisely for shareholders.
但请相信，如果把时间尺度放到12个月之外，我们会明智地为股东使用这些资本。
And the best way is organic growth, which I wouldn't rule out that we can find more ways to grow clients, basically.
而最佳方式是有机增长，基本上我不会排除我们还能找到更多途径来拓展客户群。
Operator
主持人
Our next question comes from Gerard Cassidy with RBC Capital Markets.
接下来我们连线来自加拿大皇家银行资本市场的 Gerard Cassidy。
Gerard Sean Cassidy
I'd like to circle back to the return on tangible common equity topic that you guys have discussed. Obviously, you had a very strong number this quarter, 20% when you adjusted for the onetime effect. And you go back to your Investor Day and you pointed out 17% is what the targeted level is.
我想回到你们讨论过的有形普通股股本回报率（ROTCE）主题上来。本季度在剔除一次性影响后，你们录得 20% 的强劲水平。而在你们的投资者日上，目标值被设定为 17%。
And if you turn back the clock and go back to 2020, you had the same 17% goal for the ROTCE, but your CET1 ratio back then was guidance -- guidance was 11.5% to 12%. So my question is, has the business for you folks changed so much that now it's just inherently a more profitable business? Or are there some onetime -- not onetime items, but are there some tailwinds that are artificially -- I hate to use that word, but are they inflating the ROTCE, which is why you guys are very cautious about lifting that goal from 17%?
再把时间拨回到 2020 年，当时你们同样将 ROTCE 目标定在 17%，但彼时的 CET1 指引仅为 11.5% 至 12%。所以我的问题是，你们的业务模式是否发生了巨大的结构性变化，以至于现在天生就更具盈利能力？还是说存在某些并非一次性的顺风因素——我不太想用“人为”这个词——在推高 ROTCE，因此你们对把目标从 17% 上调持谨慎态度？
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Jeremy, you can answer this one. I just might add really be an important point. The value to shareholders is that we cannot just earn 17% ROTCE is that we can reinvest money at 17% ROTCE. That's the value. If you're just going to earn 17% you're a bond, then you will trade at 3x tangible book, but that's it for the rest of your life. And so the goal is to find opportunities to grow and expand your franchise, which we are doing.
Jeremy，你来回答这个问题。我只补充一点非常关键的内容：对股东而言，价值不仅在于我们能够赚取 17% 的 ROTCE，更在于我们能以 17% 的 ROTCE 再投资资金。如果企业只是维持 17% 的回报，那就像一只债券，估值可能停留在账面净值的 3 倍左右，终其一生难有突破。因此，关键目标是寻找机会来发展并扩张我们的业务版图，而这正是我们正在做的。
增长是更关键的因素。
If you look at it, we are doing that with branches and bankers internationally. And when we look at the mid-cap business we're doing in Europe is it's been great. Innovation economy has been great. We're gaining shares in a lot of places, Chase Wealth Management and the Private Bank, the international -- payment systems, we're investing in all those things to grow our franchises, and that's the best way to use your capital. And forget the timetable of that is the best way to use it.
举例来说，我们正通过在全球扩张分行网络和招聘银行家来实现增长；我们在欧洲开展的中型企业业务表现优异；创新经济业务也十分出色。我们在许多领域不断提升市场份额，包括 Chase 财富管理与私人银行、国际业务以及支付系统。我们正在这些方面进行投入，以壮大我们的业务版图，这才是最有效的资本运用方式，时间表并不是最关键的考量。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. And Gerard, I guess, on your other question, it's an interesting question. I don't think the answer is really knowable. And I feel like it's kind of all of the above. And let me say what I mean.
好的，Gerard，对于你的另一个问题，这是个很有意思的问题。我认为答案其实无从确定，我觉得原因是多方面的。下面让我解释一下我的意思。
Like on the one hand, I think if you look at the current market environment, it's hard to imagine a set of conditions that would be any better for us, right? Rates are at a good level for us. Deal activity is high. Capital markets are very strong. Consumer credit is excellent. Wholesale credit is excellent. Wealth Management, Asset Management. I mean essentially every part of the company is firing. We're essentially firing on all cylinders with some very minor exceptions of certain businesses that are extremely rate sensitive, like Home Lending, where they're still doing a great job in what is a very tough market.
一方面，若看看当前的市场环境，几乎难以想象存在更适合我们的条件。利率水平对我们有利，交易活动旺盛，资本市场非常强劲，消费信贷表现优异，批发信贷同样出色，财富管理、资产管理等业务亦然。基本上公司各部门都在全速运转，只有极少数对利率极为敏感的业务（如住房贷款）在极其艰难的市场中仍保持着出色表现。
So when you see that, you're like, well, that's not normal. Normally, you would have some pockets doing a little better, some pockets doing a little worse. And that's part of what makes you think that some aspects of this are maybe not sustainable.
因此，当你看到这种景象时，会觉得这并不寻常。正常情况下，总会有些领域表现更好，有些稍差；也正因如此，你会认为某些方面或许难以长期持续。
On the other hand, it's also true that core elements of the strategy are working very well. And we've been investing for a long time very successfully and kind of leaning in even in moments where from the outside, there wasn't that much appetite for us to be investing in all of the things that Jamie is talking about. Some of those investments in various ways are paying off. So...
另一方面，战略的核心要素确实运转得很好。长期以来，我们一直在成功投资，即便外界并不总是看好 Jamie 提到的所有投资方向，我们仍积极投入。其中一些投资现在正以不同方式产生回报。所以……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
You have all of our major bank competitors are back, rolling and expanding. Then you have the fintech folks, who are quite capable and quite smart, who you don't want to take big chunks of your business. Everything we do is kind of competitive around the world. So the notion is that somehow we're not going to deal with tough competitors, right, which protects JPMorgan Chase, if we don't get complacent, we don't get arrogant, we don't get bureaucratic. And we keep on realizing -- you keep on finding that you got to have to fight for it every day.
我们的主要银行竞争对手都已回归并加速扩张，再加上那些能力强大且极具智慧的金融科技公司，你可不希望他们抢走你大块业务。我们在全球做的每件事都面临竞争。所以，若认为自己不会遇到强劲对手就大错特错了。只要我们不自满、不傲慢、不官僚，摩根大通就能保持优势；但我们必须每天都意识到并付诸行动——你必须为此不断奋斗。
And so we're quite cautious to just declare victory, like somehow we're entitled to these returns forever. I also pointed out, if you could compound at 17%, because I had Jeremy do this number one point, if you compounded at 17% for 20 years, you probably would have a good chunk of the GDP of the United States of America -- for 40 years maybe.
因此，我们不会轻易宣称已获胜，仿佛这些回报会永远属于我们。我还指出过，若你能以 17% 的速度复合增长——我曾让 Jeremy 算过这个数字——20 年后，你大概就能拥有美国 GDP 的相当大一部分；如果是 40 年，也许更夸张。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. I always have to go put new batteries in my HP 12c, when you ask me that question. All right. Yes...
是的。每次你问我这个问题，我都得去给我的 HP 12c 财务计算器换新电池。好的，没错……
Gerard Sean Cassidy
杰拉德·肖恩·卡西迪
Jeremy, I'm glad you're still using HP 12c. That's good. Just as a follow-up...
Jeremy，我很高兴你仍在使用 HP 12c，这很好。我有一个后续问题……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
He just uses his big brain. He doesn't need the 12c.
他直接用自己的大脑，不需要 12c。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
\[indiscernible]
【听不清】
Gerard Sean Cassidy
杰拉德·肖恩·卡西迪
As a quick follow-up, Jeremy, you touched on...
快速跟进一下，Jeremy，你提到了……
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
\[indiscernible] 40, but it's not true because we not do that.
【听不清】40，但那并不真实，因为我们不会那样做。
Gerard Sean Cassidy
杰拉德·肖恩·卡西迪
Just as a quick follow-up, Jeremy. In the Markets comment that you made, you said that there were fewer opportunities in Securitized Products and Fixed Income Financing. Can you expand upon that or give us any color there?
再快速跟进一下，Jeremy。你在谈到市场业务时提到，在证券化产品和固定收益融资方面机会较少。你能否对此展开说明，或提供更多信息？
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes, sure. I mean it's just normal diversification inside the Markets business. Those businesses are doing great. But like at the margin, in the second half of the quarter, well, stuff was a little quieter relative emerging markets and the macro space, which was a little bit better. But nothing too dramatic.
好的，当然。这只是市场业务内部的正常多元化，那些业务本身表现良好。不过在季度后半段，相比于表现更佳的新兴市场和宏观板块，这些领域的活动稍显平淡，但并无重大变化。
Operator
主持人
Our next question comes from Saul Martinez with HSBC.
下一位提问者是来自汇丰银行的索尔·马丁内斯。
Saul Martinez
索尔·马丁内斯
Just one for me, I just want to follow up on Ken's question about sales and trading. And I think you kind of addressed this, Jeremy. But I just -- you had another strong quarter there on the back of a pretty exceptional Q1 on the back of really strong 2024.
我只有一个问题，想跟进肯关于销售与交易业务的提问。我认为你已经部分回答了，Jeremy。你们在非常出色的2024年及异常强劲的第一季度之后，本季度再次取得强劲表现。
I mean how are you thinking about how much of this is the result of an exceptional trading environment versus something that's more durable? And presumably less volatility, good for Investment Banking, but do you see -- would you see some sort of normalization in sales and trading as a result? Or do you think there's still opportunities to grow certain businesses and take share? Just curious how much -- how you think about what's exceptional versus what's more durable here?
在你们看来，这其中有多少源于特殊的交易环境，又有多少是更具持久性的因素？按理说，波动性降低对投行业务有利，但你们是否预计销售与交易收入会因此趋于正常化？还是认为仍有机会在某些业务上实现增长并夺取份额？我想了解你们如何区分当前业绩中的“异乎寻常”部分与“更具持续性”部分。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. I mean one thing I'll say is that there's no like weird exceptional thing happening in this particular quarter are driving the results. So it's pretty broad-based. And it's not like particularly lumpy. And as I said, I think it is true, and I think we've shared some of this in different ways including in my slide at Investor Day, that we are deploying quite a bit of capital and other resources like G-SIB capacity and liquidity in some cases, to generate that revenue. And we're happy with the returns. But it's sort of -- it's not just like growing without any inputs essentially. So I guess, on the one hand, you might say that, that's a bit more durable for that reason. But it is important to realize that it's coming with that use of resources essentially.
首先，这个季度并没有什么怪异或突发的单一因素在驱动业绩，表现相当广泛且并非由某个大额项目拉动。如我之前所说，包括在投资者日的幻灯片中展示过，我们确实投入了大量资本及其他资源（例如 G-SIB 容量、流动性等）来创造这些收入，我们对回报也感到满意。但这并非“无投入式”增长；正因如此，你或许可以说这部分业绩更具持久性，同时也要认识到它是资源投入的结果。
So I mean, we've gotten over time, a little bit more relaxed about talking about the Markets business as something that has relatively uncorrelated and reasonably recurring revenues. It's obviously extremely client-centric. There's a lot of financing of various types that's being supplied. And it seems to, if anything, more often than not be countercyclical rather than procyclical. But it's still Markets, right? Things can happen. It's volatile, there's risk taking involved. That's part of the point that -- sorry to hedge the answer, but that's kind of how we think about it.
因此，随着时间推移，我们逐渐更愿意将市场业务视为拥有相对分散且相当可持续收入来源的板块。该业务显然以客户为中心，向客户提供多种融资形式，而且往往表现出逆周期而非顺周期特征。但归根结底，它仍属于“市场”——任何情况都可能发生，波动性与风险承担始终存在。抱歉回答得较为保守，但这正是我们的思考方式。
Operator
主持人
Our final question comes from Chris Kotowski with Oppenheimer.
接下来是本次会议的最后一个问题，来自奥本海默的 Chris Kotowski。
Christoph M. Kotowski
克里斯托夫 M. 科托夫斯基
Kind of an old-school bank analyst question. After a long time of kind of bemoaning slow C\&I loan growth, you had this extraordinary growth this quarter, \$33 billion on average and more than 6% quarter-over-quarter. But then when we look at the P\&L in the Commercial & Investment Bank, net interest income is down 2% and lending income is down 4%. And I know there's hedges and other complicated things, but it just kind of doesn't compute that you'd have such strong loan growth and not have revenue growth associated with that.
这是一个有点传统的银行分析师问题。在抱怨企业与工商贷款（C\&I）增长缓慢很长时间之后，你们本季度却实现了异常强劲的增长，平均增加330亿美元，环比增长超过6%。但当我们查看企业与投资银行部门的利润表时，净利息收入下降了2%，放贷收入下降了4%。我知道这其中有对冲和其他复杂因素，但贷款增长如此强劲却没有相应的收入增长，这看起来不太合理。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Yes. I mean the hedges are definitely part of it. And a lot of the assets came on the balance sheet quite late in the quarter. So I don't know, I might be missing something. And there's probably some Markets NII piece of it, too. So I don't know Mikael can follow up with you, but that -- I think the loan thing is part of it, Markets NII is part of it, and late quarter -- balance sheet, and the hedges for sure.
是的，对冲确实是其中一个原因。此外，很多资产是在季度末才进入资产负债表的。我可能忽略了什么，市场业务的净利息收入或许也有影响。Mikael 之后可以与您跟进。我认为贷款因素是一部分，市场净利息收入是一部分，季度末资产负债表扩张以及对冲都起到了作用。
Operator
主持人
We have no further questions.
本次会议的问题环节到此结束。
Jeremy Barnum
杰里米·巴纳姆
Thanks very much.
非常感谢。
James Dimon
詹姆斯·戴蒙
Thank you.
谢谢大家。
Operator
主持人
Thank you all for participating in today's conference. You may disconnect at this time, and have a great rest of your day.
感谢各位参加今天的电话会议。会议到此结束，祝大家余下的时间过得愉快。
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