2024-03-13 Satya Nadella.AI, chip shortage, empathy, and poetry

Refer To：《Satya Nadella.AI, chip shortage, empathy, and poetry》。

Nicolai Tangen:

Hi there. I’ve just had the most incredible experience of my life, having been allowed to interview Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, which is now the most valuable company in the world. Wow.

你好。我刚刚经历了人生中最不可思议的事情：我被允许采访 Microsoft 的 CEO Satya Nadella，而 Microsoft 现在是全球市值最高的公司。哇。

Satya, you are the CEO of the most valuable company in the world. What’s on your mind these days?

Satya，你是全球市值最高公司的 CEO。最近你在思考什么？

Satya Nadella:

Look, to me, Nicolai, first of all, it’s great to be with you and have this conversation. What’s top of mind for me is twofold, right?

看，在我看来，Nicolai，首先，很高兴能和你在一起进行这次对话。我当下最关注的有两点，对吧？

One is I’m grounded in the fact that in our business, in tech business, now this is my 32nd year at Microsoft.

其一，我始终扎根于这样一个事实：在我们的行业——科技行业里——我在 Microsoft 已经第 32 个年头了。

I know that for a fact that there’s no such thing as a franchise value and so that means every day you have to get up and hopefully you’re doing things that are going to be relevant tomorrow.

我非常清楚，没有所谓的“franchise value”（特许经营价值）。这意味着你每天都必须起身去做事，并且最好这些事在明天仍然具有相关性。

Windows的教训。

And so to me that’s sort of perhaps the biggest lesson learned over all these decades and years. And so here we are on what is essentially a complete new platform shift that we are in the midst of, right?

对我来说，这或许是在过去几十年里得到的最大教训。因此，我们正处在一场本质上完全崭新的平台级变革之中，对吧？

I kind of say it’s my 32nd year, but it’s year two of my fourth platform shift. And so what’s on mind is, OK, what is this platform shift really all about? And as a company, can we be all in and innovate, right?

我常说，虽然这是我的第 32 个年头，但这也是我经历的第 4 次平台迁移的第 2 年。所以我在想的是：好的，这次平台迁移的实质到底是什么？作为一家公司，我们能否全情投入并持续创新，对吗？

I mean, at the end of the day, When I say there’s no franchise value, it also means that you get to play for it all up again. Even the battles we won and the battles we lost are all up for grab again.

我的意思是，归根到底，当我说没有“franchise value”（特许经营价值）时，也意味着一切都要重新开局。我们赢过的战役、我们输过的战役，都将重新进入竞争。

And so therefore, there’s a freshness to it. So what’s on my mind is that ability to ground myself back yet on another platform shift and it’s exciting.

因此，这里面有一种新鲜感。所以我在思考的，是如何让自己在又一次平台级变革上重新扎下根——而这令人兴奋。

Nicolai Tangen:

The fact that there is no franchise value, does that make you nervous?

既然不存在“franchise value”（特许经营价值），这会让你感到紧张吗？

Satya Nadella:

Absolutely. I mean, it should make every one of us nervous, right? At least that’s why the tech is so exciting, right? It’s kind of like the two sides to the same coin, right?

当然会。我的意思是，这理应让我们每一个人都感到紧张，对吧？至少这也是科技之所以令人兴奋的原因之一，对吧？这有点像同一枚硬币的两面，对吧？

One is you’re nervous and it’s exciting, so therefore you can’t rest. But at the same time, hey, who wants to be in a business where you don’t get to reinvent yourself again and again?

一方面，你会紧张，同时也会兴奋，因此你无法懈怠。可与此同时，嘿，谁会愿意待在一个无法一次又一次自我重塑的行业里呢？

Nicolai Tangen:

Absolutely. Do you think we look at tech in too narrow a sense? I mean, how can technology really be a driver for the next level of economic growth?

当然。那么你觉得我们看待科技的视角是否过于狭隘？我的意思是，科技究竟如何才能真正成为下一阶段经济增长的驱动力？

Satya Nadella:

That’s a great, great question. I think a lot about that, right? Which is, in some sense, if you think at a GDP level, tech spend, narrowly defined, is probably 4% or 5%. So the question is, what is happening with the other 95%?

这是个非常非常好的问题。我对此思考了很多，对吧？从某种意义上说，如果从 GDP 层面来看，狭义定义下的科技支出大概占 4% 到 5%。那么问题是，剩下的 95% 发生了什么？

So one of the ways I’ve always thought about the prospects of any new technological paradigm or platform shift, like take AI. If AI is going to be the next big general purpose technology, for me,

因此，我一直思考评估任何新技术范式或平台迁移前景的一种方式——比如以 AI 为例。如果 AI 将成为下一代重要的通用型技术（general purpose technology），对我来说，

the real opportunity is, let’s say tech spend goes from 5% to 10% over the next five years or what have you, or 10 years. Then what happens to the other 90% and the pie does it become bigger, right?

真正的机会在于：假设未来五年（或者你说十年）科技支出从 5% 升至 10%，那么其余的 90% 会怎样？整个“蛋糕”会不会变得更大，对吧？

Does the, you know, do we have a breakthrough in healthcare driven by AI? Do we have a breakthrough in material science and energy transition because of AI? And the list goes on, right?

比如说，我们是否会因为 AI 而在医疗领域取得突破？我们是否会因为 AI 而在材料科学与能源转型上取得突破？这样的例子不胜枚举，对吧？

So to me, that is fundamentally the way I think about it, right? Which is I think that one of the things that might be most important for us is to consider How a general purpose technology,

所以对我而言，这就是我根本性的思考方式，对吧？也就是说，我认为对我们最重要的事情之一，是去考量一种通用型技术（general purpose technology）将如何——

somebody was telling me this, right, which is in the height of the Industrial Revolution in the United Kingdom, they spent 10% of their GDP building the railroads.

有人这样对我说过，对吧：在 United Kingdom 的工业革命高峰期，他们把 10% 的 GDP 用于修建铁路。

And obviously the railroads is not about the railroads, it’s about the entire economy of the United Kingdom.

而显而易见，铁路并不是为了铁路本身，而是关乎 United Kingdom 整个经济体。

And so something like that I think is what, that’s the unit of analysis at least for me as to how tech and its future will impact the broader society and economy.

因此，我认为类似的尺度——至少对我而言——才是用来分析科技及其未来如何影响更广泛社会与经济的“分析单元”。

Nicolai Tangen:

Now, Google had pretty much all the top AI people, and certainly you got ahead of them, partly due to your relationship with OpenAI. How did that whole thing come about?

如今，Google 几乎汇聚了所有顶尖的 AI 人才，而你们显然在某些方面走到了他们前面，部分原因在于你们与 OpenAI 的关系。这一切是如何开始的？

Satya Nadella:

I mean, to me, the way I came at this, Nicolai, is just very simple, which is obviously we’ve been like, I think the very first thing Microsoft Research did in 1995 when it was formed was Some stuff around speech, right?

我的意思是，对我来说，Nicolai，我看待这件事的方式其实很简单。显然，我们一直在做这方面的事——我记得 Microsoft Research 在 1995 年成立时做的第一件事就是围绕语音的一些研究，对吧？

In fact, I think we hired a bunch of the folks from CMU and so we’ve been at this AI thing in its variety of different forms forever. And so one of the things that when I met with the OpenAI folks and Sam and Greg and crew back in,

事实上，我记得我们从 CMU 招募过一批人，所以我们长期以来以各种不同形式在做 AI。于是，当年我与 OpenAI 的伙伴以及 Sam、Greg 和团队会面时，其中一个想法就是，

you know, I would say when they were working even on the Dota 2 contest and what have you, was to sort of say, wow, they have a new different approach to things and we wanted a partner.

你知道，我会说那时他们还在做 Dota 2 contest（比赛）之类的项目，我们当时的感觉是：哇，他们有一套全新的不同方法，而我们希望找到这样一位合作伙伴。

I mean, you know, one of the things that I’ve always looked at over my years at Microsoft is look for high ambition technology innovation companies, right?

我的意思是，在我于 Microsoft 的这些年里，我始终在寻找那些志向高远的技术创新型公司，对吧？

Whether it, you know, and partnerships, like whether it’s Intel and Windows came together and that was successful. SAP and SQL Server, it came together and it was successful. So I’m always looking for partners that we can innovate with.

无论是，与合作伙伴结盟——比如 Intel 和 Windows 的结合并获得成功；又比如 SAP 与 SQL Server 的搭配也取得了成功。所以我总是在寻找能够与我们共同创新的合作伙伴。

有合作的基因。

And that’s what I found in Sam and team. And, you know, at that time, it was not like it was a real Short in the dark, right? It is not like, oh wow, this is a sure thing.

而我在 Sam 和他的团队身上就看到了这一点。而且你知道，在当时，这并不是一次真正的“Short in the dark”（摸黑碰运气的尝试），也并非那种“哦哇，这是稳操胜券的事”。

Everybody now talks about it as if, you know, this is the issue with tech, right? Which is long before it’s conventional wisdom, you have to be all in and hope it works.

如今人人都在谈论它——这正是科技行业的特点，对吧？也就是说，在它成为“共识”之前很久，你就必须孤注一掷地投入其中，并期望它奏效。

And this is one of those things where we backed it long before it was conventional wisdom. And here we are. But I don’t think, you know, like there’s going to be severe amount of competition.

而这就是其中之一：在它成为共识之前很久，我们就已经选择支持它。如今我们走到了这一步。但我并不认为，嗯，竞争会减少——相反会非常激烈。

You know, Google is a very competent company and obviously they have both the talent and the compute and they have, you know, they’re the vertically integrated player in this, right?

你看，Google 是一家能力极强的公司，显然他们兼具人才和算力，并且在这一领域是纵向一体化的参与者，对吧？

They have everything from data to silicon to models to app products and distribution and there’s others as well. And so, yeah, we will have significant amount of competition.

他们从数据到芯片（silicon）、从模型到应用产品与分发，全都具备，而且还有其他竞争者。因此，是的，我们将面临相当激烈的竞争。

And I think if anything, Microsoft’s partnership with OpenAI is bringing more competition to otherwise what would have been a default. Google should be the default winner.

我认为，无论如何，Microsoft 与 OpenAI 的合作为本来可能“一家独大”的格局带来了更多竞争。按默认路径推演，Google 本该是默认赢家。

And if we partner well and we innovate well, we can bring some competition to them.

如果我们把合作做好、把创新做扎实，我们就能对他们形成实质性的竞争压力。

Nicolai Tangen:

So if you look three to five years from now, where is Microsoft in this whole AI ecosystem, you think?

那么如果把时间拉到三到五年之后，你认为 Microsoft 在整个 AI 生态系统中的位置会在哪里？

Satya Nadella:

So to me, I think about this in the fullness of the stack, right? So I want us to have, first and foremost, the best AI infrastructure.

对我来说，我是从完整的技术栈来思考这件事的，对吧？所以首先且最重要的是，我们要拥有最好的 AI 基础设施。

So that means when it comes to Azure, whether it’s for training, whether it’s for inference, to have fantastic infrastructure. We’ll partner with NVIDIA. We’ll partner with AMD. We’ll have our own silicon.

这意味着在 Azure 上——无论是用于训练还是用于推理——都需要一流的基础设施。我们会与 NVIDIA 合作，也会与 AMD 合作，同时还会有自研的芯片（silicon）。

We will have our own system architecture. We will take the best system architecture innovation from Jensen and Lisa and others who may come along.

我们会拥有自家的系统架构，也会吸收 Jensen、Lisa 以及其他后来者在系统架构上的最佳创新成果。

And make sure Azure is serving the needs of OpenAI, serving the needs of Mistral, serving the needs of Fi that we are building, right, which is the small language model.

并确保 Azure 能满足 OpenAI 的需求，满足 Mistral 的需求，也满足我们正在构建的 Fi（小型语言模型）的需求。

So that’s kind of the first thing that we want to do, which is the best work in being able to build the infrastructure out for both training and inference. And then the next layer up, We want to have like the entire data tier, right?

所以这是我们首先要做的事：把训练与推理所需的基础设施建设做到最好。然后在更上一层，我们希望打造完整的数据层，对吧？

So you can imagine as these models and model capabilities become, you know, More capable, I think the data tier will be completely redone. We’ve talked about the retrieval augmented generation already.

可以想见，随着这些模型及其能力不断增强，我认为数据层将被完全重做。我们已经谈到过检索增强生成（retrieval augmented generation）。

You have all these things, whether it’s embeddings, vector search, how do you chunk data such that retrieval augmented generation can work well. So that’s an entire layer.

你会涉及很多内容：比如 embeddings、向量检索，以及如何对数据进行切分以便检索增强生成能够高效运作——这本身就是一个完整的层次。

Or when context lens become bigger, that’s a different sort of data layer. Like what’s the throughput between data and your inference fleet? How do you sort of think about that? So therefore, We will innovate on the data layer.

又或者当上下文窗口变得更大时，数据层的形态也会不同。比如数据与推理集群之间的吞吐如何设计？你该如何思考这些问题？因此，我们会在数据层持续创新。

And then, of course, on top of it is where we will innovate on our copilots. One of the first products we built was GitHub copilot.

当然，在其之上，我们会在 copilot 上持续创新。我们最早打造的产品之一就是 GitHub copilot。

In fact, my entire confidence in this generation of AI started when I started seeing from GPD 3 to 3.5 and that implementation in GitHub. And so we now have not only GitHub copilot, we have copilot for all knowledge work in Microsoft 365.

事实上，我对这一代 AI 的信心，始于我看到从 GPD 3 到 3.5 的演进，以及它在 GitHub 中的实现。因此现在我们不仅有 GitHub copilot，还在 Microsoft 365 中为各类知识工作提供 copilot。

copilots of these functions, whether it’s service or sales or finance. So we’re going to innovate in our app layer on our own. And so that’s, I think, fundamentally how I look at it. It’s a full stack approach.

这些职能都将拥有 copilot——无论是服务、销售还是财务。所以我们会在应用层自主创新。我对这一切的基本看法是：这是一个全栈式的方法论。

微软的技术堆栈和AI匹配的很好，是目前看到的最符合AI的做法。

And each layer, by the way, we will innovate. We will have partners, we will have others innovating, there will be competition even.

顺带一提，每一层我们都会创新。我们会有合作伙伴，外部也会有人在创新，甚至会与我们形成竞争。

It’s not like, you know, one of the things of being a platform company is you got to be comfortable with many third parties competing with you on different layers because that to me is core.

这并不奇怪。作为一家平台型公司，你必须坦然接受在不同层面上有许多第三方与我们竞争，因为在我看来这是平台的核心所在。

Otherwise, you kind of try to, you know, do everything in a monolithic way and at least what we have learned over the years is the best thing to do is to keep each layer competitive on its own.

否则你就会试图用单体式的方式去包办一切。而至少这些年我们的经验是：让每一层在其自身范畴内保持竞争性，才是最好的做法。

Nicolai Tangen:

You said in the beginning that we are year two into this paradigm shift. How do you see it compared to other technological breakthroughs that you’ve been through?

你一开始说我们正处在这场范式转移的第 2 年。与以往经历过的其他技术性突破相比，你怎么看？

Satya Nadella:

So at least the four I’ve seen, Nicolai, is obviously PC, client server, both what happened on the PC and the server side. That was my first. That’s kind of when I joined 92. We’re at the beginning of that.

至少我亲历过的四次，Nicolai，显然包括 PC、客户端—服务器（client server），既发生在 PC 端也发生在服务器端。那是我的第一次，也正是我在 92 年加入时的起点，我们当时正处在开端。

Then there was the web internet, and then there was mobile cloud, and so AI is the fourth. I think one of the interesting things is each one of these built on the previous, right?

随后是 Web/互联网，然后是移动+云（mobile cloud），如今 AI 是第四次。有趣的是，每一次都建立在前一次的基础之上，对吧？

So I don’t think the web would have happened if there was not a ubiquitous PC. After all, the first time I saw Mosaic, you know, was up as a browser on top of Windows, right? So and then Netscape came about and then IE and what have you.

所以如果没有普及的 PC，我不认为 Web 会发生。毕竟我第一次见到 Mosaic 的时候，它就是运行在 Windows 之上的浏览器，对吧？随后有了 Netscape，然后是 IE 等等。

And so therefore, I think you sort of see each one of these Births the next. And then it goes beyond what births do. That’s, I think, the real thing.

因此，你会看到每一次都会“孕育”下一次，而后者又会超越前者所能带来的影响。我认为这才是关键所在。

And right now we’re seeing that, which is the cloud, as we know of it, and mobile and PCs on the edge have really birthed the AI age. And the question is what happens next? Right, which is, does it go beyond that?

现在我们正在见证这一点：我们所熟知的云、移动，以及边缘侧的 PC 的确孕育了 AI 时代。问题在于接下来会发生什么？也就是说，它会走向更远吗？

And that I think is, I mean, there’s going to be AI that is not just about cognitive work, AI that is also going to accelerate science. So I think that that’s an exciting space. AI that is going to be embodied in the real world.

我认为会的——AI 不仅会服务于认知性工作，也会加速科学进展。这是一个令人兴奋的方向；AI 还将以实体形态融入现实世界。

So what may happen in robotics is an exciting space. And so there is a bunch of things that are going to happen over time.

因此，机器人领域可能出现的变化同样令人期待。随着时间推移，会有一系列事情接连发生。

But clearly, yes, this is year two of a complete new paradigm that obviously reinforces what happened, or builds on what happened previously, but also showing early signs of what happens next.

但可以明确的是，我们确实处在这个全新范式的第 2 年——它显然在强化或继承此前的成果，同时也已经显现出下一阶段的早期迹象。

Nicolai Tangen:

If there had been no shortage of chips now, would the development have gone even faster?

如果现在没有芯片短缺，发展会不会更快？

Satya Nadella:

That’s a good question in the sense of scaling laws, right? There are two sides to it, right? There’s the training side and the inference side.

从“缩放定律”的角度来说，这是个好问题，对吧？这件事有两个方面，对吧？一个是训练端，另一个是推理端。

On the training side, clearly compute and compute scale and the scaling laws have proven to be very successful. And the question is, how long does that go? Is there going to be another model architecture breakthrough or what have you?

在训练端，显然算力与算力规模，以及缩放定律，已经被证明非常成功。问题在于，这条路径能持续多久？是否会出现另一种模型架构上的突破，等等？

I think that one has to see, it’s unclear, but we definitely are not going to bet against scaling laws and not are we going to bet against or not are we going to say that this is the last model architecture breakthrough.

我认为这还有待观察，目前并不清楚。但可以肯定的是，我们绝不会押注缩放定律会失效，也不会说模型架构的突破已经到此为止。

In fact, a great example of it is even what we’ve seen even with our small language model innovation like Fi,

事实上，一个很好的例子就是我们在像 Fi 这样的“小型语言模型”创新上所看到的进展，

right, which is we are able to create what is significant capabilities in a small language model which doesn’t require obviously the same amount of compute, right? Which is just like attention is everything. Attention is all you need.

对吧？也就是说，我们能够在小型语言模型中实现相当可观的能力，而显然无需同等级别的算力，对吧？就像那句话所说：注意力就是一切，注意力就是你所需要的一切。

Textbooks is all you need. I mean that sort of intuitively speaks to How I think learning can happen. And so therefore I would say, yes, if more capacity there is in the world, the chances are that we will be able to make progress.

教科书就够了。我的意思是，这直观地体现了我对学习如何发生的看法。因此，我会说，是的，如果世界上有更多的产能，我们很可能能够取得进展。

《Textbooks Are All You Need》，这是一篇论文，软件的作用大于硬件，这是有道理的。

But at the same time, I wouldn’t discount a real breakthrough in model architecture that doesn’t perhaps require the same type of compute. So that’s why I think at least I want to keep myself open minded about it.

但与此同时，我也不会低估这样一种可能：真正的模型架构突破或许并不需要同类型的算力。因此，至少在这件事上，我希望保持开放心态。

Nicolai Tangen:

Talking of small language models, do you think a small country like Norway should develop its own model?

说到小型语言模型，你认为像 Norway 这样的中小国家是否应该开发自己的模型？

Satya Nadella:

You know, one of the things that I’ve studied as an economist or a Dartmouth. His name is Diego Komen and he did one of the best longitudinal studies of technology diffusion.

你知道，我曾经在作为一名经济学者——或者说在 Dartmouth 的时候——研究过一个人的工作。他叫 Diego Komen，他做过关于技术扩散最出色的纵向研究之一。

And the fundamental conclusion, paraphrasing, was that any country that wants to get ahead should first make sure that they don’t reinvent the wheel, which is they import the best general purpose technology that is available.

其核心结论（意译）是：任何想要取得领先的国家，首先要确保不要重复造轮子，也就是说，应当引进当时可得的最佳通用型技术。

So I think, for example, even for Norway, first thing I would do is if we feel like for whatever reason these foundation models are not good at Norwegian or what have you, then let’s make sure they’re fine-tuning.

所以我认为，例如对于 Norway 来说，首先要做的事情是：如果我们觉得出于某种原因，这些基础模型对 Norwegian（挪威语）之类的处理不够好，那就要确保对其进行微调。

And there are many things one could do even top of foundation models like an OpenAI model or a Mistral or what have you. So there are ways you can add unique knowledge, unique value on top of even what exists before you go off and say,

而且，即便是在基础模型之上——比如 OpenAI 的模型、Mistral 的模型等——也有许多可以做的事情。也就是说，在你张口就说，

let’s build all the compute, all of it and do the same pre-training run. There’s nothing stopping any country from doing any of this. But the question is, what is the value add?

“我们把所有算力都建起来，把一切都自己做，并进行同样的预训练。”做这些没有任何国家会被阻止。但问题在于：增值点是什么？

And so therefore, I think that you start from the value add and then back into whatever is needed for it.

因此，我认为应该从增值点出发，然后再反推为实现它所需要的一切。

Nicolai Tangen:

When you look at how important the big technology companies have become in geopolitics, how do you reflect on that?

当你看到大型科技公司在地缘政治中变得如此重要时，你对此有何思考？

Satya Nadella:

Well, I mean, at the end of the day, two things, right? One is I’m very, very grounded on the fact that we are a multinational company that is definitely in this case,

好吧，我的意思是，归根结底，有两点，对吧？第一点是，我非常非常清楚一个事实：我们是一家跨国公司，而且在这个例子里确实是——

a US-based multinational company that has to earn permission and license to operate one country at a time, right? So therefore, I think of the nation states are the ones that have power.

一家总部位于美国的跨国公司，必须逐一在各个国家取得经营许可和授权，对吧？因此，我认为真正拥有权力的是各个民族国家。

We get to operate in any nation based on our ability to contribute to that country’s progress, right? So whenever I am, whether I’m in Norway or I’m in…

我们之所以能在任何国家开展业务，取决于我们能否为该国的发展作出贡献，对吧？因此，无论我在哪里——无论是在 Norway，还是在……

In Jakarta or New Delhi or wherever, I am always grounded on fundamentally the fact is are we able to make,

在 Jakarta、New Delhi，或任何地方，我始终回到一个根本事实：我们是否能够让——

look the local politicians and political leadership and society at large in the eyes and say that we contributed to their public sector becoming more efficient or large multinational companies in the region becoming more globally competitive because of some tech input.

直视当地的政治人物、政治领导层以及更广泛的社会大众，并能够坦然地说：因为某些技术投入，我们帮助他们的公共部门变得更高效，或者让该地区的大型跨国公司在全球竞争中更具竞争力。

Education outcome, health outcomes, small businesses and their productivity. At the end of the day, your social contract with the country comes from your ability to contribute to their local progress.

教育成果、医疗健康成果、中小企业及其生产率。归根结底，你与一个国家的“社会契约”来源于你为其本地进步作出贡献的能力。

And so I don’t think we can ever be beyond. Geopolitics will exist with or without us and our goal has to be how do you participate and have permission to operate.

因此，我不认为我们能够凌驾其上。无论有没有我们，地缘政治都会存在，而我们的目标必须是：如何参与其中并获得经营许可。

Nicolai Tangen:

Moving on, in your book, Refresh, you talk about three areas. You talk about AI, you talk about quantum computing and mixed reality. What kind of opportunities are you seeing in quantum computing?

继续，在你的著作《Refresh》中，你谈到了三个领域：AI、量子计算和混合现实。那你在量子计算方面看到了哪些机会？

Satya Nadella:

It’s fascinating. In fact, I think of all those three still, right? For example, when I think about mixed reality, I think of it as that’s an embodied AI, right?

这非常迷人。事实上，我至今仍这样看待这三者，对吧？例如，当我想到混合现实时，我把它视为一种具身化的 AI，对吧？

Effectively, whether it’s autonomous vehicles, robotics or people with glasses, they’re all seeing the real world is the prompt effectively. So your real world understanding.

本质上，无论是自动驾驶汽车、机器人，还是戴着眼镜的个人，它们都在把真实世界当作“提示词”。因此，关键在于你对真实世界的理解。

So therefore, I think of in the generation of AI, Some of these things become even more interesting and more important and we do need to broaden the aperture versus thinking narrowly of just one device or one form factor.

因此，我认为在这一代 AI 中，这些事物会变得更加有趣、更加重要；我们需要拓宽视角，而不是把思维局限在某一台设备或某一种形态上。

Similarly, quantum is a fascinating thing. I mentioned science, right? One of the things I look at it and say is in order to make progress on science, you need great in silico simulation. Quantum is the ultimate breakthrough, right?

同样地，quantum（量子）也非常迷人。我刚才提到科学，对吧？我对它的一个看法是：要推动科学进步，需要强大的 in silico（计算机内）仿真；而 quantum 则是终极性的突破，对吧？

So when we have a complete new system architecture that breaks free of the von Neumann Limitation, you are then finally going to be able to simulate something like the dynamics of a cell or a molecule, right?

因此，当我们拥有一种全新的系统架构，能够突破 von Neumann 限制时，我们终于就能模拟诸如细胞或分子的动力学之类的过程了，对吧？

So that I think when you can do that, then everything else, even in terms of biology or what have you, becomes more feasible. The interesting thing is AI is kind of like an emulator of that simulator.

所以我认为，一旦你能做到这一点，那么其他一切——即便是在生物学等领域——都会变得更可行。有趣的是，AI 某种意义上就像那个模拟器的“仿真器”（emulator）。

In other words, you can kind of simplify the search space. And we see this already Nicolai.

换句话说，你可以在一定程度上简化搜索空间。而且我们已经看到了这种趋势，Nicolai。

One of the things we did recently was we have a model for material science, which we use to generate a new novel compound, which we then went and manufactured.

我们最近做的一件事是：我们有一个用于材料科学的模型，用它生成了一种全新的化合物，随后我们把它实际制造出来。

We worked with the Pacific National Lab locally here to effectively go reduce the lithium content by 70% in a new battery material. and produced it, right? Not just conceptualized it, but simulated it, produced it.

我们与当地的 Pacific National Lab 合作，有效地把一种新型电池材料中的锂含量降低了 70%，并将其制备出来，对吧？这不仅仅停留在概念层面，而是完成了仿真并真正生产出来。

And so to me, something where like quantum plus AI, I think can be the ultimate accelerator of science. And we are making progress. Even on quantum, we’re taking a very full stack approach.

因此，在我看来，像 quantum 加上 AI 这样的组合，能够成为推动科学的终极加速器。而且我们正在取得进展。即便在 quantum 方面，我们也在采取非常“全栈式”的路径。

We have our software stack with our Q Sharp, which is our quantum programming stack. So we are excited about sort of the progress we’re making on quantum. And how it complements AI.

我们拥有以 Q Sharp 为代表的软件栈——这是我们的量子编程栈。所以我们对自己在 quantum 方面取得的进展，以及它与 AI 的互补效应，感到振奋。

Nicolai Tangen:

And where does gaming fit into this?

那么游戏在这其中处于什么位置？

Satya Nadella:

Yeah, so to me, one of the things, in fact, Microsoft was in gaming long before we were into Windows. In fact, Flight Simulator, I think, was launched long before Windows was launched.

是的，在我看来，其中有一点其实很关键：Microsoft 进入 Windows 之前很久就已经在做游戏了。事实上，我记得 Flight Simulator 的发布远早于 Windows 的发布。

So we are very, very excited, obviously, now with Activision as part of Microsoft. We have mobile gaming, we have cloud gaming, we have console gaming, PC gaming. So we are a full stack game publisher, as well as our game systems provider.

因此，显而易见，如今 Activision 已成为 Microsoft 的一部分，我们对此非常非常兴奋。我们有移动游戏、云游戏、主机游戏、PC 游戏。所以我们既是全栈的游戏发行商，也是我们的游戏系统提供方。

And so our goal there is, one, we’re in gaming for our love of gaming. So I always sort of say we should never be in businesses as a means to some other end. It has to be an end, otherwise it’s not a business.

因此，我们在那里的目标首先是：我们做游戏是因为热爱游戏。我一直强调，绝不能把业务当作实现其他目的的手段；它必须是终点本身，否则就不是一门“业务”。

没什么协同的逻辑。

So to me, gaming is something where we want to bring joy of gaming. That’s the one pure consumer entertainment category.

对我来说，游戏是我们希望把“游玩的乐趣”带给用户的东西。它可以说是唯一一个纯粹的消费娱乐品类。

I love the fact that gaming on a secular basis is probably going to be, if not already, the biggest entertainment category out there. So that’s one. And of course, it has real implications on the rest of it, right?

我很喜欢这样一个事实：从长期结构性趋势看，游戏很可能会成为（即便不是已经成为）最大的娱乐品类。这是其一。当然，它对其他领域也有实实在在的影响，对吧？

If you think about it even, remember, it’s interesting. I’ve not talked to Jensen about it, but one of the greatest sort of successes of GPUs was fostered by innovation in gaming, right? DX.

再想一想，很有意思。我没就此和 Jensen 讨论过，但 GPU 的一些最伟大的成功正是被游戏领域的创新所催生的，对吧？DX（DirectX）。

which was the Microsoft graphics stack is what made GPUs an accelerator, right? After all, the GPUs were recreated for PC gaming.

也就是说，Microsoft 的图形栈让 GPU 成为“加速器”，对吧？毕竟，GPU 最初就是为了 PC 游戏而被重新定义的。

One of the things that we want to use AI is to be able to find these bugs in these even closed worlds before they’re out there. And so therefore, we have some very great use cases there.

我们想用 AI 做的一件事，就是在这些甚至是封闭世界（游戏环境）里，在问题暴露之前就能发现漏洞。因此，在这方面我们已经有一些非常好的用例。

But beyond that, I think gaming as data in the context of some of the innovation in our models, I think is going to be important.

但更进一步，我认为在我们模型的一些创新语境下，将游戏视作数据（来源）也会变得非常重要。

Nicolai Tangen:

Do you game yourself?

你自己会玩游戏吗？

Satya Nadella:

I’m a light gamer. I used to do a lot more. Civ was my favorite game. Age of Empires is another great game that I enjoyed. I wish I could play more, but from time to time, I slip into it.

我是个轻度玩家。过去玩得更多。Civ 是我最喜欢的游戏之一，Age of Empires 也是我很享受的佳作。我希望能玩得更多一些，但偶尔还是会忍不住“沉浸几把”。

Nicolai Tangen:

You have really changed the culture at Microsoft. When you look back, what do you think are the most important changes you made?

你确实改变了 Microsoft 的文化。回过头看，你认为自己做过的最重要的改变是什么？

Satya Nadella:

Look, I mean, Nicolai, I sort of, first of all, as I said, I’ve grown up all my professional career for most part is all Microsoft.

这样说吧，Nicolai，首先，正如我说过的，我几乎整个职业生涯都是在 Microsoft 中成长起来的。

So, you know, when you say I’ve been at Microsoft for 32 years, all the good, the bad, I was part of it, right? So I don’t sort of somehow think that I represent all errors of Microsoft.

所以，当你说我在 Microsoft 已经待了 32 年，无论好的、坏的，我都是其中的一部分，对吧？因此，我并不会认为自己就代表了 Microsoft 的所有“错误”（errors）。

Nicolai Tangen:

Yeah, which makes it even more incredible that you have made these changes.

是的，这也更显得你促成这些改变非同寻常。

Satya Nadella:

And the way though I came about it is quite frankly, as a consummate insider, I basically pattern matched as to, hey, when were we at our best? What was the cultural set of attributes that helped us succeed?

说实话，我之所以这样做，是因为我是一名彻头彻尾的内部人。我基本上是做了“pattern matched（模式匹配）”：嘿，我们在什么时期表现得最好？哪些文化属性曾帮助我们取得成功？

And then when we failed, what are the cultural attributes that caused that failure? And then dampen this ladder and amplify the former. That was as simple as that. So one of the things I look back even in my, you know, career at Microsoft,

然后当我们失败时，又是哪些文化属性导致了失败？接着就要“压低后者、放大前者”。就这么简单。于是我回看自己在 Microsoft 的职业生涯里的一件事，

when we first became the largest market cap company, I forget, I think in the early 2000s, I think we crossed G.

当我们第一次成为市值最大的公司时——我记不清了，我想是在 2000 年代初——我想我们超过了 G。

You know, people on our campus probably were walking around, including me, thinking, oh, we must be God’s gifts to humankind because we are so brilliant and what have you. Except what we needed to be grounded on that day was to say, wow,

你知道，校园里的人们大概到处走着——包括我自己——心想：哦，我们一定是上帝赐给人类的礼物，因为我们太聪明、太了不起了，等等之类的。可那天我们真正需要脚踏实地的是：哇，

we now have a real responsibility to reground ourselves, to to innovate again so that we are relevant in the future, right?

我们现在肩负着真正的责任，要重新校准自己、再次创新，确保在未来依然具有相关性，对吗？

And so that’s why I was lucky enough to have read Carol Dweck’s book on mindset, which is around child psychology called Growth Mindset. And I love that book. I read it more on the context of sort of our children’s education.

所以我很幸运读过 Carol Dweck 关于心态的书，属于儿童心理学范畴，叫做 Growth Mindset。我很喜欢那本书。当时我是更多从我们孩子的教育语境来读它的。

But I must say I got educated because I felt like this is What makes individuals, children in school, it’s very clear, right?

但我必须说我也从中受教，因为我觉得很清楚：这正是让个人、让学校里的孩子得以成长的关键，对吧？

It’s better to be a learn-it-all versus a know-it-all because even if the know-it-all has great innate capability, the learn-it-all, you know, even if they start from behind, they will surpass the know-it-all, right?

成为一个“learn-it-all”而不是“know-it-all”更好。因为即便“know-it-all”具有很强的先天能力，“learn-it-all”哪怕起步落后，也终会超越“know-it-all”，对吧？

That’s sort of, you know, true for children in school. It’s true for CEOs in my seat.

这对在校的孩子成立；对坐在我这个位置上的 CEO 同样成立。

It’s true for companies and so We took that approach Nicolai, we said let’s be a learn it all versus a know it all and the day you say you’ve achieved that cultural transformation means you’re a know it all.

对公司也同样成立。所以我们采取了这种路径，Nicolai：让我们做“learn-it-all”而不是“know-it-all”。而一旦哪天你说“我们已经完成了这种文化转型”，那就意味着你又成了“know-it-all”。

有思想层面的东西。

So therefore, it is a good way to sort of say every day you make a bunch of mistakes, you at least have the courage to acknowledge them and continue on it. And so it’s not a destination you ever reach.

因此，更好的方式是：你每天都会犯一堆错误，但至少要有勇气承认并继续改进。这不是一个能抵达的终点。

Nicolai Tangen:

But how do you get the organization to buy into that? How do you get it to penetrate down towards the permafrost in the organization?

但你如何让组织真正认同这一点？你如何让它向下渗透到组织中的“永久冻土层”（permafrost）？

Satya Nadella:

It’s a beautiful, it’s a great point. So I think the way, I think see the problem of Corporations, especially for non-founder companies, founders have great power and great followership.

这是个很好的问题。我的看法是：公司的难题在于——尤其是非创始人领导的公司——创始人往往拥有强大的权力与追随者。

And that’s why I think they’re so successful, or at least, you know, at least we only talk about the successful founders.

这也是我认为他们之所以成功的原因；或者至少，你知道，我们谈论的往往都是那些成功的创始人。

But if you set that class aside for mere mortals like me, it can’t be like, OK, new dogma from a new CEO and more corporate speak. It has to appeal to us as human beings.

但如果把那一类人先放在一边，对像我这样的“凡人”而言，不能只是“新 CEO 的新教条”和更多的企业话术。它必须能以“人”的身份打动我们。

That’s why I credit more of this work by Carol and team and so on because it’s not like it was not like I don’t think anybody at Microsoft views growth mindset as some Microsoft dogma or definitely not Satya Nadella dogma.

这就是为什么我更归功于 Carol 及其团队等人的工作。因为我不认为 Microsoft 的任何人把 growth mindset 看作某种 Microsoft 的教条，更绝不是 Satya Nadella 的教条。

It is something that speaks to them as humans, right, which is it’s good for them as friends, colleagues, partners, parents, neighbors. It integrates work and life. They can bring their own personality and passion to it. and benefit from it.

它之所以能打动人，是因为这对他们作为朋友、同事、伙伴、父母、邻居都是有益的。它把工作与生活融为一体，让人们可以把个性与热情带入其中，并从中受益。

I always say this Microsoft culture of growth mindset is not for Microsoft, it’s for you. And you should only practice it if you feel like it speaks to your own thriving at Microsoft and in life. That’s, I think, what I attribute it to.

我常说，Microsoft 的 growth mindset 文化并不是为了 Microsoft，而是为了“你”。只有当你觉得它有助于你在 Microsoft 与人生中茁壮成长时，你才应该去践行它。我把成功归因于此。

It wouldn’t have taken off if it was just another thing that is a top-down slogan.

如果这只是一句自上而下的口号，它根本不可能推广开来。

I always have believed that which is ultimately people work and find meaning in work only if they can find some true deeper meaning for themselves and so that’s I think what I’ve been always trying to invoke.

我始终相信：归根到底，只有当人们为自己找到某种真实而更深层的意义时，他们才会投入工作并从中找到意义。因此，我一直试图唤起的，正是这种内在的意义感。

Nicolai Tangen:

Well, they clearly also have found true deeper meaning in the concept of empathy because you talked a lot about that and you say that it’s key to innovation and leadership and so on. So why is it so important for you?

很明显，他们在“empathy（同理心）”这一概念中也找到了更深层次的意义；你对此谈了很多，并且认为它是创新与领导力等的关键。那么，为什么它对你如此重要？

Satya Nadella:

I think about this as, you know, like, I think most people think of empathy as some kind of a soft skill that’s interesting in the context of your family or personal life and works all about hardcore, you know, whatever, right?

我的看法是——你知道——大多数人把同理心当作一种“软技能”，在家庭或个人生活中或许有用；而工作则是关于那些所谓“硬核”的东西，你懂的，对吧？

But I look at that and say, again, where does innovation come from? Innovation comes from us being able to drive the solutions to unmet, unarticulated needs of customers out there. So the key being unmet and unarticulated.

但我会进一步追问：创新从何而来？创新源于我们能够为外部客户那些“未被满足、尚未被清晰表达”的需求提供解决方案——关键正在于“未被满足”和“未被表达”。

So that means you have to have a better sense when you’re even looking at some log data or some customer interview data or whatever. It’s not just the words that they’re saying, but you’ve got to be able to walk in their shoes.

这意味着，即便你只是在看日志数据、客户访谈资料之类的东西，也需要更敏锐的感知。不能只听对方口头说了什么，而是要“设身处地”代入他们的处境。

And the good news there is this is innate in us all human beings. We have the ability to empathize with the other person. In fact, design thinking is that, right?

好消息是，这种能力是人类与生俱来的——我们具备与他人共情的本能。事实上，design thinking 说的就是这个，对吧？

So when people go and say, let’s learn about design thinking, design thinking is applied empathy.

所以当人们说“让我们学习 design thinking”时，design thinking 本质上就是“应用的同理心”。

And so to me, that’s what I pull the thread on, which is let’s not think of empathy as something that is just a soft skill that you reserve for your friends and family, but I think it’s at the root of all innovation.

因此，我沿着这条线索一直往下想：不要把同理心当成只在亲友之间使用的软技能；在我看来，它是所有创新的根基。

It’s about being able to meet the unmet, unarticulated needs that comes from your Unique, I mean your innate ability to have curiosity, to learn about others, walk in their shoes, innovate on their behalf.

它关乎满足那些未被满足、尚未被清晰表达的需求；而做到这一点，依赖于你独特的——也就是与生俱来的——好奇心，以及了解他人、设身处地、并代表他们进行创新的能力。

And that I think is I think what we have to do. And that’s why I think empathy is an important, important skill for all of us.

我认为这正是我们必须去做的事。这也是为什么同理心对我们每个人而言，都是极其重要的一项能力。

Nicolai Tangen:

When did you first discover the power of empathy? I mean, I read your book, fantastic book. You talk very warmly about your mother, she being very empathetic.

你最初是什么时候意识到同理心的力量的？我是说，我读过你的书——很棒的一本书。你对母亲的描述非常温暖，她非常具有同理心。

Satya Nadella:

Yeah. And, you know, I think that one of the things that I feel like all of us learn How to turn on this bit of empathy through life’s experience, right?

是的。你知道，我觉得我们每个人都是在生命经历中学会如何“打开”这份同理心的，对吧？

So in some sense, every day, you get confronted with different circumstances, not just yourself personally, but people around you.

从某种意义上说，你每天都会面临不同的处境——不仅是你自己，身边的人也是如此。

For me, obviously, the birth of my son, for both my wife and me was a life changing event and it was something that You know, over the years, I at least learned a lot because I remember in the early days,

对我来说，显而易见，儿子的出生对我和妻子都是改变人生的事件。多年来，这件事让我学到了很多。我记得在最初的日子里，

it was all about sort of my son was born with cerebral palsy. He passed away a few years ago. And but, you know, when he was born, it was a lot about what happened to me.

一切都围绕着他——我的儿子出生时患有 cerebral palsy（脑瘫），几年前他离世了。但是，你知道，他刚出生时，我总是在想“这件事对我发生了什么”。

I was sort of, you know, essentially quote unquote, you know, in All about why did this happen to us? Why did it happen to me?

我当时，基本上可以说是“所谓的”——满脑子都是：为什么这会发生在我们身上？为什么发生在我身上？

And then I realized after watching in some sense my wife, who was there as a caregiver, as a parent, you know, taking him up and down Seattle to every therapy possible.

后来，在看着我的妻子——以照护者、以母亲的身份——带着他在 Seattle 往返奔波，尽一切可能去做治疗之后，我逐渐意识到了些东西。

Quite frankly, you know, it took me years, not, you know, days or months or weeks. And then I realized that nothing had happened to me, but something had happened to my son and I needed to be there for my son.

坦白讲，这个过程花了我好几年——而不是几天、几周或几个月。之后我才明白：并没有什么“发生在我身上”，真正发生的是“在我儿子身上”，而我需要做的是为他而在场、陪伴他。

And that is the experience I talk a lot about, but there’s experiences like that every day, right? Some colleague of mine comes with some, you know, parent of theirs who needs care, right?

这是我常常谈起的经历。但类似的经历每天都在发生，对吧？比如某位同事的父母需要照料，他（她）会来与我交流之类的。

That sort of, I learned from it, or at least let me put it this way, I am more attuned to learning from other people’s experiences today than I was in the beginning of my career. And I think that happens to all of us, right?

通过这些事，我学到了很多；或者换个说法，如今的我比职业生涯早期更善于从他人的经历中学习。我想这对我们所有人都是如此，对吧？

Which is life’s experiences, if they accrue that ability to build a deeper empathy for other people. And that also helps you be a better manager, a better coworker, a better innovator.

也就是说，当人生经历累积起来，它会让你对他人产生更深的同理心；而这也会帮助你成为更好的管理者、更好的同事，以及更好的创新者。

Nicolai Tangen:

Thanks for sharing. Do you think there is a contradiction between empathy and execution?

谢谢分享。你认为同理心与执行力之间存在矛盾吗？

Satya Nadella:

I don’t, right? I think that at the end of the day, to me, you have to take accountability, right? So this is one of the things that In business, like in life too, right? You have to be accountable for making real progress.

我不这么认为，对吧？在我看来，归根结底你必须承担责任，对吗？无论在商业还是在生活中，你都必须为取得真正的进展负责。

One of the things I think about, why do businesses exist? Businesses exist, at least I like this Colin Mayer definition that you have to create profitable solution to challenges of people and planet,

我常思考的一点是：企业为何存在？我喜欢 Colin Mayer 的定义——企业应为人类与地球所面临的挑战创造“可盈利的解决方案”，

because that’s at least a good way to allocate the global resources that are available, right? The profit motive is a good motive because it means you’re competing and allocating resources in the most efficient ways and face competition.

因为那至少是一种有效配置全球可用资源的方式，对吧？逐利动机是好的动机，因为它意味着你在竞争，在以最高效的方式配置资源，并接受市场竞争的检验。

And so therefore you have to have great execution, you have to have great accountability.

因此，你必须具备强大的执行力，并承担起强有力的责任。

And so I think of empathy as a necessary condition to create great solutions that are profitable and that are competitive solutions that are really in the marketplace as opposed to somehow this being a trade-off.

所以，我把同理心视为创造“优秀且可盈利、真正能在市场上竞争”的解决方案的必要条件，而不是与执行力之间的某种取舍关系。

Nicolai Tangen:

When you look at your skill set and your personality, what do you think it is that makes you so effective as a leader?

当你审视自己的能力组合和性格时，你认为是什么让你成为一名高效的领导者？

Satya Nadella:

I mean, first of all, I don’t think of this as I don’t know I have causality here.

首先，我不觉得自己能在这里谈什么因果关系，我并不确定。

Well understood because quite frankly it’s so much easier for others to opine on this than or rather it’s just really for others to judge and assign causality there.

说实话，这种事更容易由旁人来评论——由他人来评判并归因。

But the way at least I come at this is I don’t start with what am I good at? I am very keen Lee shaped by what am I not good at? In other words, I’m always looking, what can I learn from someone else?

但至少我的切入方式不是“我擅长什么”，而是“我不擅长什么”对我塑造更深。我总是在想：我能向他人学到什么？

If there’s one attribute I have, I don’t start each day by thinking all the stuff I know and I’m good at. I’m like, wow, what am I weak at? Whom do I talk to? Whom do I meet?

如果说我有什么特质，那就是我不会以“我知道并擅长的事情”开启每一天。我会想：哇，我的短板在哪里？我该和谁交流？我该去见谁？

How do I really shape the colleagues around me who have better skills than me on many fronts? That’s what I’m wired. Like maybe that helps, but I don’t know whether that’s the causality.

我如何真正让那些在许多方面比我更强的同事发挥所长、彼此成就？这是我的“线缆走向”。或许这有所帮助，但我不确定这是否就是因果。

But I don’t start each day with saying, wow, I’m so good at this, so therefore I’m going to go do this. No, I come at the exact opposite, which is…

我不会每天都以“我在这方面很棒，所以我要去做这件事”来开场。不，我恰恰反过来……

有合作的基因，也是微软有问题、容易碎片化的地方。

Nicolai Tangen:

Is this something you learned from Bill Gates? Because he said the same thing, right? He is really a learner too, right?

这是不是你从 Bill Gates 那里学到的？因为他也说过类似的话，对吧？他也是个真正的“学习者”，对吗？

Unknown Speaker:

I mean, it’s a good point.

这个观点不错。

Satya Nadella:

Both Bill and Steve, there is a sense at Microsoft, I think that that’s an interesting thing. We’re going to be 50 years next year. There is, you know, what Andy Grove would talk, the paranoid survive or what have you.

无论是 Bill 还是 Steve，在 Microsoft 都有一种共通的“气质”。我们明年将迎来 50 周年纪念。用 Andy Grove 的话说是“偏执者生存”之类的观念。

And I don’t come at it, but though with paranoia, right? I mean, I don’t like paranoia. I like this. That’s why I go back to my own words for this is that’s why the growth mindset of confronting your own fixed mindset,

但我并不是以“偏执”的方式来理解。我不喜欢偏执。我更喜欢这样：回到我自己的表述，即用 growth mindset 去直面自身的固定型心态，

having confidence and wow, what an unbelievable world we live in that every customer can teach me, every partner can teach me, every colleague can teach me, like what more can I ask for in life? So it’s not paranoia.

保持自信，并感叹我们生活在一个不可思议的世界里——每位客户都能教我，每个伙伴都能教我，每位同事都能教我。人生还能奢求什么呢？这不是偏执。

It’s not like, oh, wow, we have to go in every day that if I don’t learn something, I’ll fail. I’m more about what do I learn so that I can innovate maybe. That’s how I come at it. And that’s right.

也不是那种“天哪，如果我今天学不到东西我就会失败”的恐惧感。对我而言，更在于“我能学到什么，从而也许能促成创新”。这是我的路径。没错。

Bill and Steve in their own unique way had that mindset and so I’ve grown up around it.

Bill 和 Steve 也以各自独特的方式具备这种心态，而我正是在这样的氛围中成长起来的。

Nicolai Tangen:

And how do you install that kind of, I mean, it is humbleness in a way, right? How do you install that in an organization?

你如何把那种——我是说，在某种意义上属于“谦逊”——的东西植入组织？要怎样才能在一个组织里建立起它？

Satya Nadella:

At the end of the day, look, I think different people come at it. I think if there’s anything, humbleness is an interesting word. I always say that you need confidence. Humility and not hubris, right?

归根结底，我觉得不同的人会从不同路径切入。若说一点体会，“humbleness（谦逊）”这个词很有意思。我总说人需要自信，但要“humility（谦逊）而非 hubris（狂妄）”，对吧？

Because there is sometimes confidence with humility can allow you to really make great progress, but confidence that translates into hubris can bring, you know, it’s the downfall of,

因为有时，带着谦逊的自信能让你真正取得巨大的进步；但当自信转化为狂妄时，会带来——你知道的——

you know, civilizations, empires and individuals, right? And from ancient Greece to modern Silicon Valley.

文明、帝国以及个人的败亡；从 ancient Greece 到现代的 Silicon Valley，皆是如此。

And so that’s why I think you have to sort of really get that calibration that you’ve got to have some confidence in your own capability.

所以我认为你必须做好这种“校准”：对自身能力要保有一定的自信。

Nicolai Tangen:

You said in the podcast with our common friend Adam Grant that your father, he had a list of people he met and a list of ideas generated. Have you got a list of people you want to meet?

你在和我们共同的朋友 Adam Grant 的播客里提到过，你父亲会列“结识的人清单”和“产生的想法清单”。你也有想见之人的清单吗？

Satya Nadella:

Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, he had this note in his diaries were full of that schema, which is people met, ideas generated and tasks completed, which I love, which is a beautiful way each day to keep a count off. And absolutely.

是的，是的。他的日记里满是这种结构化的笔记：people met、ideas generated、tasks completed。我很喜欢——这是每天“记账”的一种极好的方式。确实如此。

So that’s sort of like I took that to heart. And that’s essentially how that’s my framework for life as well.

所以我把它铭记于心。这也基本成了我人生的框架。

很好的家庭环境。

Nicolai Tangen:

Another thing that makes you stand out is, you know, there is a saying most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people. That’s clearly not the case for you. Tell me about your love for poetry.

还有一点让你与众不同：有句话说“多数人忽略大多数诗歌，因为大多数诗歌忽略大多数人”。这显然不适用于你。谈谈你对诗歌的热爱吧。

Satya Nadella:

I love poetry, you know, the biggest, in an interesting way, I got into poetry very late. My mom was a professor of Sanskrit drama and so she really instilled in me,

我热爱诗歌。有趣的是，我很晚才真正走进诗歌世界。我的母亲是 Sanskrit 戏剧的教授，所以她确实在我心里种下了——

or at least tried to instill in me the love for, you know, poetry and in her case, you know, Sanskrit literature and poetry and what have you, but I think of it as compression. It’s the best.

或者至少努力去种下——对诗歌的热爱；就她而言，是对 Sanskrit 文学与诗歌的热爱。但在我看来，诗歌是“compression（压缩）”，是最极致的压缩。

When you think about code, as I coded more is when I sort of felt like, wow, poetry is basically natural language compression. And it is able to describe, you know, it’s a model of the world in the most succinct form.

当你想到代码——我写代码越多，就越觉得“哇，诗歌本质上是自然语言的压缩”。它能以最简洁的形式刻画这个世界的模型。

And so there’s And I got into Urdu poetry in a big way in my mid 30s. And so I grew up in Hyderabad where obviously Urdu poetry was in the air. And now, of course, I love it.

于是我在三十多岁时深深迷上了 Urdu 诗歌。我在 Hyderabad 长大，那里显然到处都弥漫着 Urdu 诗歌的气息。现在我当然仍然热爱它。

But even, you know, late, you know, you know, the American poets, the English romantics, Germans, they’re fast. I mean, like, so I I’m at least I’m not I wouldn’t say I know much poetry.

不过，晚近以来，American poets、English romantics、Germans，他们的谱系/传统都很庞大。也就是说，至少我不会自称对诗歌了解很多。

But at least I’m fascinated by the ability of the human mind to compress thought, whether it’s code or poetry.

但至少，我着迷于人类心智“压缩思想”的能力——无论是在代码里还是在诗歌中。

Nicolai Tangen:

Well, that’s fantastic. Last question, Satya, we have tens of thousands of young people listening to this. What is your best advice to young people?

太棒了。最后一个问题，Satya：有成千上万的年轻人在听这期节目。你给年轻人的最佳建议是什么？

Satya Nadella:

You know, the best Advise for anyone starting out in sort of advice I got, which I paraphrase as never wait for your next job to do your best work, right?

对任何刚起步的人，我最好的建议——也是我得到并转述过的——是：永远不要等到“下一份工作”才去做你最好的工作，对吧？

Which is one of the things is any job you get, like I don’t remember ever at Microsoft feeling like, oh, I have to get a promotion in order to feel more satisfied or more fulfilled.

也就是说，无论你得到什么职位——我不记得自己在 Microsoft 有过那种感觉：哦，我必须先升职才能更满足或更有成就感。

Because I somehow felt I had gotten the lottery and I was in the best job I could ever be in. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t have ambition, you shouldn’t strive for your next promotion, you shouldn’t advocate for yourself or have others.

因为我总觉得自己像是中了彩券，正在做我能想象到的最好的工作。当然，我并不是说你不该有雄心、不该为下一次晋升努力、不该为自己争取（或请他人为你发声）。

You absolutely should do all that. But at the same time, really my advice would be also to take the job you have at hand Do an unwonderful,

这些你当然都应该去做。但同时，我真正的建议还包括：把当下手头的工作抓牢——

you know, go at it with all of you, the vigor and all of the energy and also define it as broadly as possible, right? I mean, that is perhaps one of the things when I look back at it, I never defined my job narrowly.

你知道的，拿出全部的自己、全部的劲头和精力去做，并且尽可能把岗位的边界定义得更宽一些。回头看，我几乎从未把自己的工作定义得过于狭窄。

And that I think was both very satisfying in the moment and it helped, I think, land me the next job. And so that is my, perhaps the one advice I would leave people with.

我认为这样做既能在当下带来很强的满足感，也确实帮助我拿到了下一份工作。所以这也许是我留给大家的唯一一条建议。

Nicolai Tangen:

Well, I cannot think of anybody who is doing a better job than you. So, big thanks for being on the show. Good luck with everything and all the best.

我想不出还有谁比你做得更好。非常感谢你来上节目。祝一切顺利，万事如意。

Satya Nadella:

Thank you so much, Nicolai. It’s such a pleasure.

非常感谢你，Nicolai。十分荣幸。

Nicolai Tangen:

Thank you.

谢谢。

2024-03-13 Satya Nadella.AI, chip shortage, empathy, and poetry

2024-03-13 Satya Nadella.AI, chip shortage, empathy, and poetry

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